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Old September 18th, 2011, 12:43 PM   #221
Nima-Farid
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USA is not Pakistan, Iraq of Afghanistan that truck bombing is considered important. How many type of these bombings happened in the US?
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Old September 18th, 2011, 02:44 PM   #222
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The areas where most freeways were built were, mostly, areas that were already dilapidated, reservoirs of poverty or already on the process of decay. They did many a neighborhood a favor by accelerating its clearance because it was hopeless to recover it. Sometimes the whole social system built-up around a neighborhood is wracked, and disbanding the neighborhood with nw infrastructure serving other areas of the city is an awesome win-win way to achieve that.



Truck bombing near the ground is more dangerous.
No they weren't , they were some of the nicest areas of each city or middle class. After the Highway was built it became poor , they didn't do any favors.... You honestly need to study US Urban history more , because you know nothing about it...
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Old September 18th, 2011, 02:46 PM   #223
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USA is not Pakistan, Iraq of Afghanistan that truck bombing is considered important. How many type of these bombings happened in the US?
A Few dozen from 1960-1995....enough to cause Bollards to be put up at every Major Govt Building , Train station and Popular meeting place.
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Old September 18th, 2011, 03:00 PM   #224
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It is possible to build skyscrapers on top of expressways, I believe the original plans for the Mid-Manhattan Expressway called for skyscrapers and buildings on top of it. They also did this at the Trans-Manhattan Expressway (I-95).
There not really skyscrapers, but skanky apartment blocks that are undesirable...
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Old September 18th, 2011, 03:47 PM   #225
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There not really skyscrapers, but skanky apartment blocks that are undesirable...
I know, but it doesn't really matter what type of buildings there are, fact is there can be large towers on top of expressways. They could even cover the rest up too, so you won't see, hear or smell the expressway. Which means valuable real-estate development + good accessibility. There are many autoroutes in Paris where they've built covers over the motorways. An urban motorway can be much more than just a noisy concrete river.
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Old September 18th, 2011, 03:50 PM   #226
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Having a motorway in a tunnel also means that future expansion is pretty impossible...
...and inner city motorways always get too busy
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Old September 18th, 2011, 03:51 PM   #227
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Yep, but existing motorways in denser urban areas are almost impossible to widen anyway. Just look at Paris, or Japanese expressways. The Japanese simply build another expressway parallel to it. Koreans do that too.
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Old September 18th, 2011, 05:36 PM   #228
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USA is not Pakistan, Iraq of Afghanistan that truck bombing is considered important. How many type of these bombings happened in the US?
Oklahoma City (April 19, 1995) killed something like 170 people.
And the first World Trade Center attack in 1993 was a truck in the parking garage. Didn't do much damage though.

At the risk of having people scream "envirowhacko!" at me - but it's just a question - how's the air in an apartment building that sits directly above a highway?
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Old September 18th, 2011, 05:43 PM   #229
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At the risk of having people scream "envirowhacko!" at me - but it's just a question - how's the air in an apartment building that sits directly above a highway?
That depends how high that window is situated. If it is on the lower floors, just over the roadway, the air quality will not be very good, that's why you need to cover somewhat more than the building alone, or offices with internal air circulation so no windows can be opened (pretty common in tall towers anyway). There are a bunch of office buildings on top of motorways in Amsterdam and The Hague.
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Old September 18th, 2011, 06:14 PM   #230
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I don't know about skyscrapers or apartments, but the Galleria mall in Hatfield just north of London is built right on top of the A1(M) motorway. So even in the fairly conservative (development-wise) UK, such an idea isn't out of the question.
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Old September 18th, 2011, 06:27 PM   #231
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The areas where most freeways were built were, mostly, areas that were already dilapidated, reservoirs of poverty or already on the process of decay. They did many a neighborhood a favor by accelerating its clearance because it was hopeless to recover it. Sometimes the whole social system built-up around a neighborhood is wracked, and disbanding the neighborhood with nw infrastructure serving other areas of the city is an awesome win-win way to achieve that.
One place in the USA is now seeing just this scenario. In Sheverport, LA, I-49 is being extended northward from I-20 (an elaborate intechange, too!) to Kansas City and the first section in Shreveport was one of those inner-city places that NIMBYed that freeway to death in the 1960s and 1970s. A public housing 'commieblock-light' project was even built in the ROW. Fast-forward to now, the public housing failed and was removed, the neighborhood continued its decline and those neighbors who are left now WANT the freeway to be built. It is now waiting its turn for funding and the rest of I-49 farther north is in various stages of construction.

Mike
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Old September 18th, 2011, 06:56 PM   #232
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No they weren't , they were some of the nicest areas of each city or middle class. After the Highway was built it became poor , they didn't do any favors.... You honestly need to study US Urban history more , because you know nothing about it...
What?? Its a FACT that most urban freeways were built in poorer parts of town and it makes perfect sense why. Cheaper buildings and land means a cheaper highway, by the time Interstates began construction it was after the white flight so inner cities were cheap and it was easier to move poor people than people with money and education. Name me some cities where an Interstate was built through a "nice" area? Parkways are different story because the highway is tucked away in a heavily wooded area with what was low density.
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Old September 18th, 2011, 07:42 PM   #233
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No they weren't , they were some of the nicest areas of each city or middle class. After the Highway was built it became poor , they didn't do any favors.... You honestly need to study US Urban history more , because you know nothing about it...
Is there any concrete evidence that the freeway building was the main cause of the decline? Plenty of cities all over the world have suffered decay in the inner city as economic activity and the middle classes have left for the suburbs. Ie I'm unconvinced the decay wouldn't have happened anyway and the freeway link is spurious. Many of those cities have no significant urban freeways (I'm thinking of British cities for example) but have extensive impoverished inner cities.
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Old September 18th, 2011, 08:11 PM   #234
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What?? Its a FACT that most urban freeways were built in poorer parts of town and it makes perfect sense why. Cheaper buildings and land means a cheaper highway, by the time Interstates began construction it was after the white flight so inner cities were cheap and it was easier to move poor people than people with money and education. Name me some cities where an Interstate was built through a "nice" area? Parkways are different story because the highway is tucked away in a heavily wooded area with what was low density.
White Flight didn't hit these areas intill after the Freeways were built , there were plans for a massive network in NJ which would have cut through the older towns but those residents saw the Urban Damage and managed to stop and kill those projects. Its different in the Northeast then the rest of the country where they didn't care for destroying buildings....the Damage Urban Freeways have caused in this region is ridiculous...

I-78 through Newark , was a nice area intill the Freeway was built , then it declined.

I-280 through Newark , was also a nice part of the city intill the Freeway was built. Both Freeways were built in a cut style method thus dividing up those areas and bringing down the wealth and people started leaving.

I-80 through Paterson , cut off the Downtown and southern side of the city which were decent intill the Freeway was built never have recovered neither has Paterson which saw 2 busy Railways destoried by I-80

I-195 / 95 in Providence it caused blight and a slow in the Downtown growth , 195 has been moved but 95 still is a major blight. And the City Declined after the 2 freeways were put in , now that 195 has been moved the city is starting to rebound

Parkways were built through the nice areas and Freeways were built in nice areas which are now bad areas....
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Old September 18th, 2011, 08:23 PM   #235
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At most, freeways were enablers rather than cause of White flight and decay of central areas.

There were a lot of factors associated with that: an economy that shifted towards more and more offices instead of 5-digit employment massive factories, double-income households, the rise of homeownership as something inherently desirable (and thus the demise of renter) etc.
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Old September 18th, 2011, 11:03 PM   #236
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The only motorways that should be build in urban areas are the underground ones. They have long urban tunnels in Boston, Rome, Dublin and Stockholm and probably in other large cities in the developed world. Build elevated highways destroy the city. In Italy they did that in Rome and Genoa and now there are plans to tear down them and build tunnels. There is also a plan for a 15 km long tunnel below Milan with six underground interchanges, but I don't think they would ever realize it.
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Old September 19th, 2011, 02:37 AM   #237
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too bad nobody is from Genova. it has so great infrastructure.
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Old September 19th, 2011, 01:19 PM   #238
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At most, freeways were enablers rather than cause of White flight and decay of central areas.

There were a lot of factors associated with that: an economy that shifted towards more and more offices instead of 5-digit employment massive factories, double-income households, the rise of homeownership as something inherently desirable (and thus the demise of renter) etc.
Indeed, and I believe this is a perfectly natural process, unlike the political/ideological line that sees it as an inherently bad thing and sees the inner cities as virtuous and to be promoted and the suburbs as evil and to be discouraged.
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Old September 19th, 2011, 03:06 PM   #239
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Indeed, and I believe this is a perfectly natural process, unlike the political/ideological line that sees it as an inherently bad thing and sees the inner cities as virtuous and to be promoted and the suburbs as evil and to be discouraged.
Actually the Cities hate the Suburbs because they often get neglected by the state when it comes to funding , or the Suburbs hate the cities because they think too much funding goes to them. The Suburbs in the Northeast for the most part are old , so the Flight in this region wasn't as bad as say the south. We have had suburbs since the 1870s , Railroad Suburbs are some of the oldest suburbs in the US. There also the most popular suburbs today unlike there Auto Cousins.... Hench why only the Auto-suburbs get promoted as bad which they are , congested , have more crime and lower quality of life then there Railroad suburban cousins. Railroad Suburbs later spawned Parkway suburbs in the 1920s......which then spawned Interstate suburbs in the 1950s/60s. Parkway suburbs filled in the areas where the Railroad suburbs weren't established. Sadly alot of these suburbs were destoried when the Interstates were built , which is a shame because they were nice burbs. The Cities aren't promoted there bashed by just about everyone in the burbs.....but the City folk rarely bash the burbs..... I have to wonder where the Europeans read up on some of there US history?
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Last edited by Nexis; September 19th, 2011 at 03:14 PM.
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Old September 19th, 2011, 04:06 PM   #240
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And I say NO for the tunnel-mania that is spreading around cities. Look, even such transit- and bicycle- oriented city as Amsterdam has its orbital motorway not rural and not in tunnel (A10) , and nobody says it is not livable city. The same for Copenhagen. Tunnels are simply too expensive to dig them everywhere.

What I'm saying is not that we should never build tunnels, but we should not be going towards them at all cost, like in Stockholm.

If there is a neccesity to build a motorway inside an area like what is inside A10 in Amsterdam or A406 in London or Stockholm's ring that E4 is part of it , I could change mind a little bit.

And I'm not talking of the NY for example, don't know what is it like in US cities, but total prohibition of urban motorways (including those that are bypassing historical centres, like those I mentioned above) is an extensive overkill that affects the traffic situation adversely.
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