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Old September 20th, 2011, 04:25 PM   #241
Nima-Farid
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Good explanation. We don't need to go though city centres we just need to bypass them in a very closed area
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Old September 20th, 2011, 08:38 PM   #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nima-Farid View Post
Good explanation. We don't need to go though city centres we just need to bypass them in a very closed area
Having an urban motorway running around the immediate city centre would mean that it would be cut off from everywhere else, unless you drive. Oh, so why not make it elevated so people can walk under it? Everyone knows what happens under an elevated motorway in a city...

It also stops the expansion of the city centre. Birmingham (UK) has just removed part of it inner ring road due to it cutting off the city centre and so far has been better off without...

Congestion has also reduced in many areas around where it used to be...

Before...


After...
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Old September 20th, 2011, 08:39 PM   #243
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How about this?
image hosted on flickr


People are very selective when it comes to "barriers".
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Old September 20th, 2011, 08:44 PM   #244
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What and where is that?
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Old September 20th, 2011, 08:48 PM   #245
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Okay, someone posted, some time back on this thread, a suggestion about building a freeway along the Spui in Amsterdam.

This Spui: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll...m&z=17&vpsrc=6 ?

Really?

My one time in Amsterdam, I stayed in a hotel on the Singel.
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Old September 20th, 2011, 09:40 PM   #246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
How about this?
image hosted on flickr


People are very selective when it comes to "barriers".
Indeed - that railway, and those like it in South London are every bit as ugly (I would say more so) than the worst elevated roads, and I speak from having seen them in the flesh - decayed-looking, covered in graffiti etc.

Yet the people who complain of freeways being barriers never, ever mention these railways.

I think these people just recycle clichés about freeways - they are barriers, they cause urban decay etc without actually thinking logically. For example, you will often hear people in Cape Town complain that the elevated freeway pictured below cuts off the city from the sea. Which is technically true, but totally irrelevant as the "sea" in question is an industrial container port and not the English-style seaside promenade that used to exist until the late 1930s. They could easily see this with their own eyes as they drive along the freeway, but the stupid cliché is so ingrained that it overrides their thinking.

image hosted on flickr


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image hosted on flickr
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Old September 20th, 2011, 09:47 PM   #247
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Quote:
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How about this?
image hosted on flickr


People are very selective when it comes to "barriers".
Railways are a lot older. You will find that when that route was first built it wouldn't have been built up around it. Urban freeways need loads to be demolished! Also a railway that size has a much much much high capacity than any 10 lane motorway!
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Old September 20th, 2011, 09:50 PM   #248
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I think elevated roadways are fine if done properly and planned properly as well. First off I think people have the 1960's image of elevated roadways. Nowadays they can build them to look nice and modern and even with some art on them. I think elevated roadways should be further away from residential areas so run them by commercial buildings or industrial areas. If they build a completely elevated road they can build parking or light rail underneath which in my opinion isn't a bad idea. At night keep them well lit and enforced and crime wouldn't be a big issue either. New ideas and innovations can make elevated roads the best thing for city centers, especially newer ones. Chris posted a good example, I would rather have a nice modern and clean elevated roadway hiding rail or parking underneath than something like that. The cutting off thing is not true for completely elevated roads, it is true for roads that are elevated by raised earth and you can't pass underneath except at a few select points. A car is nearly always a quick way to travel and can bring more life into downtown especially for cities like North America, if it is done right.
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Old September 20th, 2011, 11:45 PM   #249
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Quote:
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How about this?
image hosted on flickr


People are very selective when it comes to "barriers".
Railways of that size are rare , and usually are old like 1890s.... They also have 3 or 4x the Capacity of Highways of the same size.
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Old September 20th, 2011, 11:58 PM   #250
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Also a railway that size has a much much much high capacity than any 10 lane motorway!
But railway capacity is not as efficiently used as with motorways. The peak - low difference is much greater during the day than urban motorways, which still operate at 80 - 90% at 1 pm. A 10-lane motorway transports 264,000 vehicles, or about 350,000 persons per day. Not many railways achieve that. Railways also produce much more noise than motorways.
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Old September 20th, 2011, 11:58 PM   #251
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Okay, someone posted, some time back on this thread, a suggestion about building a freeway along the Spui in Amsterdam. This Spui: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll...m&z=17&vpsrc=6 ?
That's the one Spui that we have. Understand why I called the idea ridiculous?
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Old September 21st, 2011, 12:10 AM   #252
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That's the one Spui that we have. Understand why I called the idea ridiculous?
With dozens of channels, sparing a few for being built over wouldn't be a problem. They don't need even to close or cover it, they could build pillars in the middle of the channel and use single-point subsequent balanced elevate freeway design!

I wanted to extend A2 from its terminus right into the Damrak, with a tunnel near the Spui confluence itself (no intention on demolishing the University buildings around there).

Then, they should have built a dual road+subway tunnel that would lead this expressway into the Central Station area, where it would be connected to a major West-East freeway to be built there.
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Old September 21st, 2011, 12:14 AM   #253
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That would be no problem - if Amsterdam was a Japanese city. However, it is not. Amsterdam would better optimize traffic signals and downgrade bus priorities. Much efficiency potential is wasted due to high bus priorities at traffic signals.
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Old September 21st, 2011, 01:36 AM   #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
But railway capacity is not as efficiently used as with motorways. The peak - low difference is much greater during the day than urban motorways, which still operate at 80 - 90% at 1 pm. A 10-lane motorway transports 264,000 vehicles, or about 350,000 persons per day. Not many railways achieve that. Railways also produce much more noise than motorways.
I don't think that's true , and your wrong about the Noise. Highway Noise is constant and 24/7 , Railway Noise is a few times per hour and doesn't last more then 10 seconds unless you mean Freight which rarely uses the lines that go through the Urban areas. Railway capacity is used just as Efficient as Motorway capacity , I would argue Railways are better then Motorways in that dept. Each train can hold up to 1,000 people , and Capacity can be added easily unlike Roads.
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Old September 21st, 2011, 01:44 AM   #255
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Quote:
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Railways also produce much more noise than motorways.
That couldn't be further from the truth! A railway, even a busy one makes some noise maybe 6 times an hour for an average line and the sound lasts for about 4 seconds depending on the speed. Motorways make a constant sound from 1000s of cars zooming by...
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Old September 21st, 2011, 01:45 AM   #256
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Each train can hold up to 1,000 people , and Capacity can be added easily unlike Roads.
Exactly right! And thats 1000 cars off the road! Most people commute on their own, rush hour traffic is mostly single people in their own cars...
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Old September 21st, 2011, 03:09 AM   #257
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The air next to railways is not dirtied by exhaust, there is little noise, and property values are not depressed.

Other than that, a rail line cutting through a city is no different than a freeway.
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Old September 21st, 2011, 03:14 AM   #258
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I wonder why New yorkers oppose any kind of developement because it will "ruin bussinesses". The Interstate system ruined the bussinesses of small towns bypassed by the system. Building a designated busway in the streets will damage the bussinesses. So what?? The bussinesses will recover after a while.
What the hell are you talking about? There are HUNDREDS of multi-story buildings under construction in New York City on any given day.

There are several large scale infrastructure projects under construction including two subway lines and the Long Island Railroad East Side Access project to Grand Central Station.
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Old September 21st, 2011, 03:16 AM   #259
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Is there any concrete evidence that the freeway building was the main cause of the decline? Plenty of cities all over the world have suffered decay in the inner city as economic activity and the middle classes have left for the suburbs. Ie I'm unconvinced the decay wouldn't have happened anyway and the freeway link is spurious. Many of those cities have no significant urban freeways (I'm thinking of British cities for example) but have extensive impoverished inner cities.
Yes, there is plenty of evidence of you cared to pay attention at all.

By and large freeways in the U.S. were intentionally built through minority neighborhoods, many of which were thriving and vibrant but turned into desolate wastelands afterwards. Look at some friggin' before and after pictures.
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Old September 21st, 2011, 03:50 AM   #260
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All I can say, is I am thrilled that no more freeways were built in Los Angeles. They effectively separate the city, and they bring nothing but blight and traffic. If more freeways were built, we could have lost some of the greatest neighborhoods in the city. It's interesting, because now L.A. is almost unanimously supporting, not only mass transit, but also the stoppage of current freeway proposals. It's telling that the greatest cities in the world are the ones that have less freeways.
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