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Old September 26th, 2011, 04:17 PM   #301
Penn's Woods
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strandeed View Post
depending on the setting I think urban motorways are just fine and certainly would solve a lot of the problems in my home city of newcastle

Chicago



Cleveland



It's not so much urban motorways are fundamentally bad... they are not.

However it can be difficult to implement them correctly, especially in historic cities.
That thing in the foreground of your Cleveland picture is not a motorway, but the Detroit Avenue/Superior Avenue bridge: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll...m&z=17&vpsrc=6

(You can, though, get glimpses of the "Shoreway" along the lake.)

Must get to Chicago soon....
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Old September 26th, 2011, 05:18 PM   #302
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A cancelled expressway is synonymous with an urban motorway to you?

Anyway, there are numerous examples (especially Spain) to prove those arguments wrong.
Pretty much all the cancelled ones are the urban ones...
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Old September 26th, 2011, 07:28 PM   #303
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In most of Western cities there were lots of expressways and freeways planned after WWII but because of their spoiled democracy most of them were cancelled.
These cities were Toronto, Vancouver, Calgary, London, Paris and much more.
Even though i agree with you with the fact that many big cities should have more urban highways, democracies overall have better transport infrastructure than non-democratic countries.
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Old September 26th, 2011, 10:18 PM   #304
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I know that but the faster growing democracies are countries like South Korea, Japan and Malayssia.
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Old September 26th, 2011, 10:48 PM   #305
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I know that but the faster growing democracies are countries like South Korea, Japan and Malayssia.
Actually Japan didn't and doesn't grow much.
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Old September 27th, 2011, 01:56 AM   #306
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but they did excellent after WWII
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Old September 27th, 2011, 02:58 AM   #307
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Japan and the US are not perfect examples of Democracy , too many holes and corruption mostly when it comes to Infastrature like Roads and Rails and now the Energy Grid.
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Old September 27th, 2011, 03:05 PM   #308
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That freeway in Chicago is terrible. It totally separates the city from the beach.
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Old September 27th, 2011, 04:19 PM   #309
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From what I know of Chicago, those beaches are quite heavily used. And it's obvious from the picture that the presence of Lake Shore Drive didn't adversely affect residential development.

I'll leave it to a Chicagoan (are there any here? It would be ironic if there weren't, on a forum named SSC...) to say how the Drive feels on the ground.
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Old September 27th, 2011, 06:28 PM   #310
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Quote:
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From what I know of Chicago, those beaches are quite heavily used. And it's obvious from the picture that the presence of Lake Shore Drive didn't adversely affect residential development.

I'll leave it to a Chicagoan (are there any here? It would be ironic if there weren't, on a forum named SSC...) to say how the Drive feels on the ground.
I'm not from Chicago, but I live close enough to it to have driven Lake Shore Drive many times and my sense is that it's as much a part of Chicago as is the CTA's 'Loop' elevated structure. It is an incredible (and very useful) drive and there are ample ways for pedestrians and bicycles to get from one side to the other. It fits in.

Also, the high-rise neighborhood along Lake Shore Drive in the foreground of that above image is known locally as the 'Gold Coast'.

Mike

Last edited by mgk920; September 27th, 2011 at 06:33 PM.
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Old September 27th, 2011, 07:23 PM   #311
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That freeway in Chicago is terrible. It totally separates the city from the beach.
This is a problem in any touristic city. This can be solved with a local-express system and the local acts as a touristic route for people from other places and as a parking while the esxpress lane will be used by locals. elevated highway is not a good choice in this system most of the times and we know why but a wide on the ground or a tunnel expressway with local on top or other choices will be more useful
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Old September 27th, 2011, 08:21 PM   #312
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For me river, ocean or lake side motorways are the worst of the worst. The routes I guess were chosen as a way to get a motorway through a town without having to demolish much...But it means that any form of idyllic relaxing environment cannot be built...

...I'm imagine sitting out in a nice bar or restaurant hearing the rumble of 8 lanes of traffic...
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Old September 27th, 2011, 08:43 PM   #313
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US has THOUSANDS of miles of coast/lakeline. Probably more than 10.000.

Less than 200 of them, AT MOST, are "spoiled" by railways or highways just by the waterfront.
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Old September 27th, 2011, 10:37 PM   #314
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I'm not taking a position on Lake Shore Drive, but not all of those thousands of miles of coastline have major cities on them. You do see the difference?
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Old September 27th, 2011, 11:12 PM   #315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poshbakerloo View Post
...I'm imagine sitting out in a nice bar or restaurant hearing the rumble of 8 lanes of traffic...
Imagine living in a metropolitan area of 10 million people, and it has freeways! Oh the humanity.
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Old September 27th, 2011, 11:16 PM   #316
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Now you're just being silly. I think.


But, in case you're not, there are places in a metropolitan area, regardless of how big it is, where freeways are appropriate, and places they're not.
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Old September 27th, 2011, 11:19 PM   #317
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A strip of land where a couple hundred thousand people live seems appropriate.
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Old September 27th, 2011, 11:25 PM   #318
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Anyway, here's a European counterpart of a beachfront freeway, the B-10 in Barcelona, Spain. It appears that American engineers never really majored in fitting in freeways in the urban landscape. This European example shows how an urban freeway can coexist with the urban surroundings. Silent pavement, depressed and partially tunneled. Maybe even a truck ban.

Not all urban freeways are noisy concrete monsters.
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Old September 28th, 2011, 12:22 AM   #319
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Indeed, and I believe this is a perfectly natural process, unlike the political/ideological line that sees it as an inherently bad thing and sees the inner cities as virtuous and to be promoted and the suburbs as evil and to be discouraged.
Aren't suburbanization and city-centre gentrification two sides of the same coin as described in Pedestrian Observations's Urbanism, Gentrification and Romanticism?

20th century suburbanization

Recent-historical trends - Industrialization, rapid urbanization
Resulting problems - Slums, overcrowding, industrial pollution
Romanticized past ideal - Pre-industrial peasant life
Elitist "solution" - Suburbia, cars, homeownership, Euclidean zoning
Application to existing cities - "Urban renewal", modernist towers, city as playground for suburbanites

21st century gentrification

Recent-historical trends - Globalization, suburbanization
Resulting problems - Sprawl, loss of community, traffic congestion
Romanticized past ideal - Early 20th century city life
Elitist "solution" - Dense urban neighbourhoods, mass transit, condos, mixed-use development
Application to existing cities - Demolishing low-density development and either replacing with higher-density development or returning to countryside
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Old September 28th, 2011, 03:13 PM   #320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poshbakerloo
For me river, ocean or lake side motorways are the worst of the worst. The routes I guess were chosen as a way to get a motorway through a town without having to demolish much...But it means that any form of idyllic relaxing environment cannot be built...

...I'm imagine sitting out in a nice bar or restaurant hearing the rumble of 8 lanes of traffic...
Agreed, could you imagine walking the Nice waterfront if they had ripped up the promenade d'anglais and built something like the gardener expressway in Toronto!
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