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Old January 28th, 2013, 10:50 PM   #441
italystf
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Local politicians want votes. If most of the local community is in favour of the project they also are in favour, if most are against they oppose to it. In that way they hope to be re-elected. For this reason the opinion of the majority (even if stupid and sellfish) has so much influence on the public administration.
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Old January 28th, 2013, 10:53 PM   #442
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And I'm not sure opposing an elevated expressway through a historic district is stupid anyway. Nor is it selfish to want to have a say about what one's own neighborhood is like.
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Old January 29th, 2013, 12:44 AM   #443
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Local politicians want votes. If most of the local community is in favour of the project they also are in favour, if most are against they oppose to it. In that way they hope to be re-elected. For this reason the opinion of the majority (even if stupid and sellfish) has so much influence on the public administration.
For this reason at least cities should be ruled by techocrats, in my oppinion.
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Old January 29th, 2013, 02:13 AM   #444
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods
And I'm not sure opposing an elevated expressway through a historic district is stupid anyway. Nor is it selfish to want to have a say about what one's own neighborhood is like.
Off course destroying the historical heritage for modern infrastructures is wrong but nimbies oppose also new roads in the middle of nowhere for the only reason they live close to. Public administration should protect the environment and the historical heritage that belong to everybody but not the selfish interests of a community.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old January 29th, 2013, 02:49 AM   #445
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The New Orleans situation referred to is an example of historical heritage, not the middle of nowhere.
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Old January 29th, 2013, 03:43 AM   #446
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post

Off course destroying the historical heritage for modern infrastructures is wrong but nimbies oppose also new roads in the middle of nowhere for the only reason they live close to. Public administration should protect the environment and the historical heritage that belong to everybody but not the selfish interests of a community.
Are the interests of a community selfish? When did that happen?
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Old January 29th, 2013, 03:57 AM   #447
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They can be, for example many highways were cancelled in my metro area because of selfish communities that the majority of the metro area has a poor road network now because of one neighborhood in select areas.
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Old January 29th, 2013, 11:48 AM   #448
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Quote:
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Are the interests of a community selfish? When did that happen?
When for example few people oppose to a national importance highway or railway just because they pass close to them, without major damages to the environmental and historical heritage.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old January 29th, 2013, 12:11 PM   #449
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post

When for example few people oppose to a national importance highway or railway just because they pass close to them, without major damages to the environmental and historical heritage.
If it's really in the national interested, it will go ahead, no matter what. It is still important that they are heard though. Otherwise it wouldn't be much of a democracy.
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Old January 29th, 2013, 12:21 PM   #450
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Quote:
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If it's really in the national interested, it will go ahead, no matter what. It is still important that they are heard though. Otherwise it wouldn't be much of a democracy.
I'm not picking on democracy. But something this goes too far. For example in Campania where they don't build new landfills because nobody want them in their backyard so trash stays in the streets for months. And in that way trash is more harmful to health rather that if was disposed in a proper facility. The same for highways: heavy traffic is better if it flows on modern highways rather than on roads across towns, in term of air and noise pollution and accident rates. Also high speed rail may provide advantage fot the environment if it will be able to replace part of truck traffic. Photovoltaic panels and windmills may look ugly to see, but they would reduce pollution from energy made with non-renovable fossile fuels. But tell those things to nimbies...
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

Last edited by italystf; January 29th, 2013 at 12:29 PM.
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Old January 29th, 2013, 12:22 PM   #451
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If it's really in the national interested, it will go ahead, no matter what. It is still important that they are heard though. Otherwise it wouldn't be much of a democracy.
Unfortunately it's not always like that. Trentino-Alto Adige has the right to block every national project, within its boundary limits. A31 Valdastico Nord, anyone?
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Old January 29th, 2013, 12:27 PM   #452
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Unfortunately it's not always like that. Trentino-Alto Adige has the right to block every national project, within its boundary limits. A31 Valdastico Nord, anyone?
It is in the UK. Britain is known for not liking new roads, railway lines, airports etc etc. But yesterday the government has announced that a new high speed railway line will go ahead, linking London with Scotland. And there is no turning back. Dialogues have been set up with local communities opposing the plans, and their objections will be heard, but the scheme is going ahead nevertheless.
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Old January 29th, 2013, 12:29 PM   #453
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It is in the UK. Britain is known for not liking new roads, railway lines, airports etc etc. But yesterday the government has announced that a new high speed railway line will go ahead, linking London with Scotland. And there is no turning back. Dialogues have been set up with local communities opposing the plans, and their objections will be heard, but the scheme is going ahead nevertheless.
Apparently Trentino has more power than the constituent countries of UK.
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Old January 29th, 2013, 12:35 PM   #454
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Quote:
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Unfortunately it's not always like that. Trentino-Alto Adige has the right to block every national project, within its boundary limits. A31 Valdastico Nord, anyone?
In this case is a more complicated case since the "environmental sensitiveness" conceal economic interests. The president of the region is the main shareholder of the company who manage the A22, that would get less traffic (and so less toll) if a parallel motorway opens. He also opposes the extension of A27 towards Austria for the same reason.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old January 29th, 2013, 12:37 PM   #455
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But for Trentino it's easy to push the pedal of environment, to focus its inhabitants on this issue, and conceal the true reason.
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Old January 29th, 2013, 01:20 PM   #456
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I have another one: The original routing of Spanish A-2 (Then N-II) between Cervera and Igualada. Originally it was planned for what is now A-2 to follow C-25 for the first few kilometers, and after split off C-25 it would have headed Southeast to meet N-II again at Santa Maria del Camí. Works started, but the project became very controversial and stopped. Finally the motorway got built, but following N-II all the way.
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Old January 29th, 2013, 08:27 PM   #457
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If it's really in the national interested, it will go ahead, no matter what. It is still important that they are heard though. Otherwise it wouldn't be much of a democracy.
Not in Finland. We have been building tunnels that cost dozens of millions because some squirrels poop has been found, and the II ring road of Helsinki is on hold because of the giant cost of tunnels planned in the middle of nowhere, of the (not protected forest). Instead, they seem to plan building it as a normal road. And then they will need to upgrade it in a few year with double costs...

The New Orleans motorway seemed to have been planned on a railway, so I don't see the problem.
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Old January 29th, 2013, 10:02 PM   #458
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Not in Finland. We have been building tunnels that cost dozens of millions because some squirrels poop has been found, and the II ring road of Helsinki is on hold because of the giant cost of tunnels planned in the middle of nowhere, of the (not protected forest). Instead, they seem to plan building it as a normal road. And then they will need to upgrade it in a few year with double costs...

The New Orleans motorway seemed to have been planned on a railway, so I don't see the problem.
Would new roads in the Helsinki area be in the national interest? Slight congestions sporadically in the Vantaa area, other than that the volume of traffic is so low, that you can get anywhere you want within a certain time any time of the day.
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Old January 30th, 2013, 02:52 PM   #459
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Would new roads in the Helsinki area be in the national interest? Slight congestions sporadically in the Vantaa area, other than that the volume of traffic is so low, that you can get anywhere you want within a certain time any time of the day.
Well, more than 1/5 of the country's population lives there, and roads are mostly substandardized in what comes to capacity and geometry, and mostly not upgraded since the 70's. There are many arteries planned since the 50's, but most needed upgrades are not even in planning stage. Besides, E18, E12 and E75 roads pass there.
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Old January 31st, 2013, 02:58 PM   #460
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It is in the UK. Britain is known for not liking new roads, railway lines, airports etc etc. But yesterday the government has announced that a new high speed railway line will go ahead, linking London with Scotland. And there is no turning back. Dialogues have been set up with local communities opposing the plans, and their objections will be heard, but the scheme is going ahead nevertheless.
Haven't they only approved it as far north as Leeds?
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