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Old September 12th, 2011, 04:46 PM   #41
Nima-Farid
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Now let's take a look to successful cities in making freeways and expressways

First of all Tehran, IR
Green=Expressways
Blue=Freeways
dotted = u/c

If you look carefully there is no expressway in the central heart of the city

Madrid, E

In both of the above they also have an excelent public transport system
Los Angeles

In this case freeways go to heart of the city
Lisbon, P

Ruhr Area, D

Lille Metropole, F
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Old September 12th, 2011, 04:49 PM   #42
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This is a nice german map

Most of the autobahns in today's Poland teritory was cancelled
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Old September 12th, 2011, 05:01 PM   #43
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There should be a six-lane bored tunnel from the New Jersey Turnpike to the Long Island Expressway. Long Island has 7.5 million inhabitants but the only way to get out of it is via outdated New York Expressways.
It wouldn't work , mostly due to the Truck bomb fears that surround this region. So you won't see any more Highways built in the Urban Areas of the NYC region. You will see some highways being torn down. Theres also no space , at least underground , the Newer railway stations need to go 7 stories below to avoid the clutter of Manhattan's underground. Most people who live on LI , work on LI. They need to construct the Cross-Harbor Rail link which was defeated a few years ago due to NYC's fears of chemical freight trains passing through neighborhoods and loud passenger trains which is stupid in my opinion. The Tunnel would have taken thousands of trucks off the LI highways and thousands of Cars...
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Old September 12th, 2011, 05:09 PM   #44
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A load of urban motorways may work in a more practical and efficient manner but so much of London would have been lost...
I really don't agree. We're not talking of dynamiting the Tower of London, bulldozing Pudding Lane or razing St Pauls. The vast majority of the buildings that would need to be demolished are very ordinary late 19th Century/early 20th century structures that cover hundreds of square kilometres in London and exist in the millions in the UK. The number destroyed would be a tiny fraction of the total; I'm not advocating destroying incredibly rare gems.

The attitude has developed that every oldish building and street is of immense value, regardless of whether it's the commonest, most banal thing.
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Old September 12th, 2011, 05:12 PM   #45
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It wouldn't work , mostly due to the Truck bomb fears that surround this region.
Surely ordinary streets are more of a target for planting vehicle bombs than freeways? A vehicle can be much more easily parked on an ordinary street than on a freeway. I've never heard of a truck bomb being set off on a freeway, but many that have been set off on city streets, carparks etc.
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Old September 12th, 2011, 05:21 PM   #46
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That would get instantly rammed with cars! This is the thing with motorways is that really you need about 12 lanes for inner city routes...Tunnels are hard to expand.
Straw man argument. This is like saying: look - we build that new subway line and it is already packed with commuters! More subway brings more passengers, so we should not build subways.

It is also analogue to saying: "oh, new airports attract more planes! We build a new runway at (name your heavy-loaded airport) and the terminals are packed! Airlines starting flying more planes!".

Cars - and motorbike, and subway/air/train passengers for that matter - don't just pop up in spontaneous reproduction. If you build a highway and it becomes heavily used, that is a sign that there is a repressed demand for car lanes in a given area, so that when you provide new infrastructure, demand that was unmet now is met.

There isn't "unlimited demand" for any mode of transportation that has any cost. If you build 60 space ports across US and started flying stratosphere-able vehicles at US$ 200.000 per ride, that wouldn't mean millions of people queuing up to take a ride! Likewise, if you built an oversize marina for 200.000 luxury yachts in Prudhoe Bay, I doubt it would attract a countless jam of recreational vessels.

Indeed, at least in the case of US, infrastructure that is mostly idle or underused are commuter rail lines (like Front Runner in New Mexico, daily ridership 2.200) and, especially, slow-moving streetcar projects.

The argument that "highways attract cars" is moot, misguided and a fallacy. It is particular insidious because people who voice it are usually very biased in the sense of considering more people walking, more people packing a subway car STANDING FOR 30 MINUTES OR MORE, more people on scooters or bikes as positive, a sign of "life", wheres only those riding cars are singled out as "obnoxious" or "a threat".
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Old September 12th, 2011, 05:32 PM   #47
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I absolutely agree with Suburbanist. I've had the misfortune of travelling on London buses and underground trains that are crammed like cattle cars to the point where it is physically impossible to get off at the stop I wanted. Yet no-one says "what's the point of the London Underground, it just gets full up" or "If we run a bus, it will only get crammed, so really there is no point".

When people use this argument, they never seem to consider all the journeys transporting people and goods that are not made because the infrastructure has not been built and all the associated economic growth, leisure etc that is missed out on.
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Old September 12th, 2011, 05:32 PM   #48
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Straw man argument. This is like saying: look - we build that new subway line and it is already packed with commuters! More subway brings more passengers, so we should not build subways.
A 2 track subway line can carry so many more people that a 12 lane motorway...

But anyway, I made a map of where motorway could just about fit in, in and around London...

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?msi...87028,1.454315

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Old September 12th, 2011, 05:40 PM   #49
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Why would someone waste money on new urban motorways, when the age of car is nearing to its end? If you think price of oil can go anywhere but up, you're crazy.

Building new motorways in Manhattan and central Paris would result in riots and sabotages on a massive level, and rightfully so.
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Old September 12th, 2011, 05:41 PM   #50
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A 2 track subway line can carry so many more people that a 12 lane motorway...

But anyway, I made a map of where motorway could just about fit in, in and around London...

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?msi...87028,1.454315

That's a pretty radical proposal, I like it The only big thing missing that I would like to see is a south circular motorway.
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Old September 12th, 2011, 05:43 PM   #51
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There should be a six-lane bored tunnel from the New Jersey Turnpike to the Long Island Expressway. Long Island has 7.5 million inhabitants but the only way to get out of it is via outdated New York Expressways.
Or improvements to the existing routes through the Bronx and Staten Island that Long Islanders in fact use to get to points beyond Manhattan. Those routes need work anyway.
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Old September 12th, 2011, 05:55 PM   #52
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I haven't been to Manhattan, but it looks as though a cross freeway could be fitted in relatively easily. This could be done by demolishing all the blocks between two parallel streets and excavating it out to put the freeway in a cutting. It looks as though there would be room for twelve lanes. The parallel streets would then be converted into frontage roads, and the north-south avenues go over the top on bridges.
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Old September 12th, 2011, 06:04 PM   #53
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Why would someone waste money on new urban motorways, when the age of car is nearing to its end? If you think price of oil can go anywhere but up, you're crazy.
- electric car

- 2nd generation biofuel car

- hydrogen-powered car

- APS/induction-feed car

- automated cars (that self-drive on isolated ROWs like highways)

The age of the internal combustion engine might be nearing an end, but not that of the concept of a personal, no operator required, infinite frequency and unit of use = 1/2/3/4 passengers vehicle. Maybe that will even evolve into large-scale deployment o Personal Rapid Transit.

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Originally Posted by poshbakerloo View Post
A 2 track subway line can carry so many more people that a 12 lane motorway...
Does a subway line carry people door to door? Does it carry people door to door without intermediate stops or routing made to maximize ridership? Does it allow either travel with a wallet or with 200kg of stuff with the same comfort? Does it operate 24/7 without reduction on service level even 3am at Christmas day?
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Old September 12th, 2011, 06:06 PM   #54
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I haven't been to Manhattan, but it looks as though a cross freeway could be fitted in relatively easily. This could be done by demolishing all the blocks between two parallel streets and excavating it out to put the freeway in a cutting. It looks as though there would be room for twelve lanes. The parallel streets would then be converted into frontage roads, and the north-south avenues go over the top on bridges.
They should have done that in the 1970s, when the city was in decay and real estate in Lower Manhattan was dirty cheap. Indeed, they should have done with together with the project of the original WTC. Parts of Manhattan were like a war zone, very third World, Times Square was full of hookers, drug dealers, strip shows, illegal products... perfect opportunity missed: build a freeway, and tip off decadent and rotten areas.
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Old September 12th, 2011, 06:06 PM   #55
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I absolutely agree with Suburbanist. I've had the misfortune of travelling on London buses and underground trains that are crammed like cattle cars to the point where it is physically impossible to get off at the stop I wanted. Yet no-one says "what's the point of the London Underground, it just gets full up" or "If we run a bus, it will only get crammed, so really there is no point".

When people use this argument, they never seem to consider all the journeys transporting people and goods that are not made because the infrastructure has not been built and all the associated economic growth, leisure etc that is missed out on.
But there must be a tipping point at which so much stuff has been destroyed to accommodate cars that there's no place left for them to drive to and you end up with empty roads and empty parking lots. I'm not suggesting we're anywhere near that point now, but there are particular projects - and the cross-Manhattan expressways are among them in my opinion - that would in fact destroy more "economic growth, leisure, etc.," than they'd facilitate.


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Why would someone waste money on new urban motorways, when the age of car is nearing to its end? If you think price of oil can go anywhere but up, you're crazy.

Building new motorways in Manhattan and central Paris would result in riots and sabotages on a massive level, and rightfully so.
I think you're mistaken about the age of the car ending. I used to be as big a proponent of transit as anyone, but for most journeys a car offers a degree of freedom that public transit can't. I didn't own a car from 1995, a year after I moved to Philadelphia, to 2008, and during that time I took trains to places like Washington, New York, and my parents', or commuter trains to the suburbs, but since I acquired a car, I haven't gone any place outside the city by train except once when I needed to go to the suburbs for a work thing and my car was snowed in. On that occasion, it was easier to walk to the train station (about ten minutes) and then a ten-minute walk from the station in the suburbs to my actual destination than it would have been to liberate my car. (We'd had record-setting snow, and my car was last in a row so the plow had pushed a big mound of snow right up to it.) In the city is another story - I haven't driven an inch since last Monday and that was a shopping trip to the suburbs.

So I know I wouldn't willingly give up my car and therefore am not going to be so hypocritical as to ask others to. Obviously the oil supply's not going to last forever (and gets us into all sorts of nasty foreign-policy issues) but I think it's more likely that we'll come up with different ways of fueling cars than that we'll just switch en masse to public transport, at least for inter-city trips. And since people will continue to have cars for inter-city trips, there will need to be some need to accommodate them within cities as well. But tearing down swaths of midtown Manhattan (I was looking closely at that mid-Manhattan expressway and imagining what it would be like on the the streets outside Penn Station and Madison Square Garden if they had a freeway literally across the street from them...) to make it easier to drive from New Jersey to Long Island is not the way to go.

And Suburbanist would have been more honest, frankly, if instead of "cities should be functional," he'd said "cities should be functional for outsiders using them, but don't need to be for their inhabitants." Because that seems to be what he really means.
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Old September 12th, 2011, 06:09 PM   #56
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Why would someone waste money on new urban motorways, when the age of car is nearing to its end? If you think price of oil can go anywhere but up, you're crazy.
That's like arguing that ships were going to become things of the past when the sailing ship started to become obsolete. Oil isn't the only thing road vehicles can run on, it's just the most economical/practical at the moment.

We don't know what it will be replaced with - battery powered cars, hydrogen powered, some sort of synthetic liquid fuel etc, but sooner or later it will happen.
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Old September 12th, 2011, 06:10 PM   #57
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I haven't been to Manhattan, but it looks as though a cross freeway could be fitted in relatively easily. This could be done by demolishing all the blocks between two parallel streets and excavating it out to put the freeway in a cutting. It looks as though there would be room for twelve lanes. The parallel streets would then be converted into frontage roads, and the north-south avenues go over the top on bridges.
Clearly you haven't been to Manhattan. For the mid-Manhattan expressway, you're talking casually about demolishing - no matter which corridor you choose - swaths in which many buildings reach to 40 or 50 floors. The economic opportunities and leisure travel you'd be facilitating surely don't offset the economic damage you'd be causing.
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Old September 12th, 2011, 06:10 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
- electric car

- 2nd generation biofuel car

- hydrogen-powered car

- APS/induction-feed car

- automated cars (that self-drive on isolated ROWs like highways)

The age of the internal combustion engine might be nearing an end, but not that of the concept of a personal, no operator required, infinite frequency and unit of use = 1/2/3/4 passengers vehicle. Maybe that will even evolve into large-scale deployment o Personal Rapid Transit.



Does a subway line carry people door to door? Does it carry people door to door without intermediate stops or routing made to maximize ridership? Does it allow either travel with a wallet or with 200kg of stuff with the same comfort? Does it operate 24/7 without reduction on service level even 3am at Christmas day?
Its how people should commute in inner city areas. Building huge motorways through cities is not sustainable.
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Old September 12th, 2011, 06:11 PM   #59
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That's a pretty radical proposal, I like it The only big thing missing that I would like to see is a south circular motorway.
I know, but I just can't bring myself to direct the wrecking ball at all them nice streets! Most of them proposals are based on existing roads or building through industrial land...
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Old September 12th, 2011, 06:12 PM   #60
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They should have done that in the 1970s, when the city was in decay and real estate in Lower Manhattan was dirty cheap. Indeed, they should have done with together with the project of the original WTC. Parts of Manhattan were like a war zone, very third World, Times Square was full of hookers, drug dealers, strip shows, illegal products... perfect opportunity missed: build a freeway, and tip off decadent and rotten areas.
You're proving my point....
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