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Old September 12th, 2011, 06:15 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
And Suburbanist would have been more honest, frankly, if instead of "cities should be functional," he'd said "cities should be functional for outsiders using them, but don't need to be for their inhabitants." Because that seems to be what he really means.
Penn's Woods, my idea is more like: "I make my city accessible to you and tolerate some noise and shadows, and you make your city more accessible to me, so we both can comfortable live/work as far from the city where we work/live as we fancy."

It's the same reason I'm against large scale district/residential permit parking without replacement structures like NEARBY parking lots (underground or not): "I'll put up with some traffic in my street and build a garage if that is the case [or a parking lot underground], but when I go to your city, I want to have the same parking access as well".
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Old September 12th, 2011, 06:25 PM   #62
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Hungary 1940-2011*



*the Yugoslavian and the Czechoslovakian state built up some sections from the 1940 Highway Plan
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Old September 12th, 2011, 06:57 PM   #63
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Were they planned as real motorways back in the 40s or just main roads?
And I noticed that many cancelled motorways are parallel to already built or planned motorways, so there is no need to build them.
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Old September 12th, 2011, 07:39 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Were they planned as real motorways back in the 40s or just main roads?
Yes, and real highways. Some parts were built in Budapest only: video from 1943.

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And I noticed that many cancelled motorways are parallel to already built or planned motorways, so there is no need to build them.
Not parallel highways, only new track!
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Old September 12th, 2011, 08:27 PM   #65
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poshbakerloo
Look into the way the newest stretches of A100 in Berlin were built, might be suitable for South Circular - and don't tell me they are expensive, it is just the right of the drivers to have them, especially if a city has congestion charge like London. If the city cannot aford construction project despite all the charges, limitations, etc. it's mismanaged and NIMBY-governed (and that's my opinion not only concerning roads - we are talking of constructing half of the ring road and significant upgrading of another half, plus some radials - THAT much for such a large city?, but also public transport projects, or say airports).

And until a not-that-much-urban motorway ring outside M25 (one of your suggestions) is constructed, I won't give up the views drivers are simply opressed in the entire London Metro Area (including, as a matter of course, through traffic, that could and would make it say 40 km from centre or further if a proper rural motorway is built).
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Old September 12th, 2011, 09:00 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
- electric car

- 2nd generation biofuel car

- hydrogen-powered car

- APS/induction-feed car

- automated cars (that self-drive on isolated ROWs like highways)

The age of the internal combustion engine might be nearing an end, but not that of the concept of a personal, no operator required, infinite frequency and unit of use = 1/2/3/4 passengers vehicle. Maybe that will even evolve into large-scale deployment o Personal Rapid Transit.



Does a subway line carry people door to door? Does it carry people door to door without intermediate stops or routing made to maximize ridership? Does it allow either travel with a wallet or with 200kg of stuff with the same comfort? Does it operate 24/7 without reduction on service level even 3am at Christmas day?
Everything you mentioned requires energy, and "oil" is just a synecdoche for fossil fuels. As the prices of fuel continue to rise, suburbs without a more efficient alternative to driving a car will be abandoned.

Driving door-to-door will become a luxury. Governments need to invest in efficient electric public transport. Supporting new urban motorways now is like supporting more waterways in the 19th century England.
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Old September 12th, 2011, 09:14 PM   #67
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For a lot of years, there was talk of completing the missing motorway link between Aspen Grove on HWY 97C where the motorway ends and becomes undivided 4 lane into Merritt and the Coldwater Road interchange on BC HWY 5 (Coquihalla Hwy) motorway. It was abandoned due to protests from the City (read WASTELAND) of Merritt. Their claims were that motorists would then simply bypass the city and head over to the Kelowna area. Which they do anyway, unless headed to Kamloops.
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Old September 12th, 2011, 09:20 PM   #68
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Quote:
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Everything you mentioned requires energy, and "oil" is just a synecdoche for fossil fuels. As the prices of fuel continue to rise, suburbs without a more efficient alternative to driving a car will be abandoned.
Nonsense American anti-suburb rhetoric. Europe had fuel prices that are the equivalent of $ 300 per barrel oil for years and nobody is abandoning his car, in fact mobility is growing at a steady rate. It's just some wishful thinking, not reality.
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Old September 12th, 2011, 09:34 PM   #69
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If someone says that a price of the oil (in not so much affluent, former communist country) of a say $ 1,7 per litre forces to abadon cars, I'll be laughing on the floor....
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Old September 12th, 2011, 10:28 PM   #70
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Yes, and real highways. Some parts were built in Budapest only: video from 1943.
The road in the video is just a 1+1 highway like those built in Italy during fascism. I wouldn't call it motorway, although Italians often claim to have build the first motorway in the world in 1924. But in reality the first motorways opened in Germany in 1935 and we hadn't any motorway under 1958 when opened the first scection of A1 between Milan and Parma.
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Old September 12th, 2011, 10:47 PM   #71
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The question of what was the first motorway in the world is subject to considerable debate. There are certainly roads in the New York area opened as early as the '20s that are freeways today. (Note my careful phrasing of that sentence.)
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Old September 12th, 2011, 11:08 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
The road in the video is just a 1+1 highway like those built in Italy during fascism. I wouldn't call it motorway, although Italians often claim to have build the first motorway in the world in 1924. But in reality the first motorways opened in Germany in 1935 and we hadn't any motorway under 1958 when opened the first scection of A1 between Milan and Parma.
3,5km 2x1, 5km 2x1+2x2 and 2km 2x2, and the expressway was full separated with interchanges (there is an road junction on the road already today, but now this is only a urban road).
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Old September 12th, 2011, 11:32 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poshbakerloo View Post
A 2 track subway line can carry so many more people that a 12 lane motorway...

But anyway, I made a map of where motorway could just about fit in, in and around London...

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?msi...87028,1.454315

The system is not strong in the south.
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Old September 12th, 2011, 11:33 PM   #74
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Also we have to consider these motorways are not a solution for the growing number of commuters also they have an important role in a possible emergency evacuation
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Old September 12th, 2011, 11:50 PM   #75
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The one and only advantage of a dictatorship is that there are no close-minded environmentalists to cancel the projects!
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Old September 13th, 2011, 12:06 AM   #76
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I am not saying they should have built those plans. Of course those plans would have cut the city's south and north. I am just shwing them. But instead they can build an underground double decker tunnel expressway under one of the existing avenues.
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The one and only advantage of a dictatorship is that there are no close-minded environmentalists to cancel the projects!

I'm not clear: do you think all plans should be built (as the title you chose for this thread suggest), or only certain ones? And describing people who care about their communities as "closed-minded environmentalists" is a bit dismissive, don't you think? It might even be described as "closed-minded."
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Old September 13th, 2011, 12:14 AM   #77
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You are right that not all of them should be built because some are obvieosly extra but tnot building anything because it causes destruction is wrong. Building anything will cause destruction.
By writing close-minded enveronmentalists I didnэt mean to insult the environmentalists. I wanted to devide them by the radicalism of their ideas to open-minded environmentalists and close-minded radical environmentalists.
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Old September 13th, 2011, 12:22 AM   #78
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Planned expressways for Lyon, late 60s (overkill).



And what was actually built. I've added the planned sections (COL and TOP) in red dots.
We will also get the A89 in a couple years, and maybe the A45.

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Old September 13th, 2011, 12:35 AM   #79
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Nice plan. The system today is also quite sophisticated. Do you know about France's numbering system in that time?
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Old September 13th, 2011, 12:52 AM   #80
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You are right that not all of them should be built because some are obvieosly extra but tnot building anything because it causes destruction is wrong. Building anything will cause destruction.
By writing close-minded enveronmentalists I didnэt mean to insult the environmentalists. I wanted to devide them by the radicalism of their ideas to open-minded environmentalists and close-minded radical environmentalists.
Well, that's all right then.
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