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Old September 13th, 2011, 12:54 AM   #81
Substructure
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@Nima Farid : It hasn't changed. The inner expressways were part of an urban project called LYX, back in the 60s, and thus would have got this different, Lyon specific, numbering (LYx, Bx, Cx).

Other than that, it's the regular French system :
Ax : Autoroute (highway/freeway/motorway/expressway)
Nx : Nationale (transnational road)
Dx : Departementale, local road, whatever its size
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Old September 13th, 2011, 12:59 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nima-Farid View Post
The system is not strong in the south.
South London is very hard for motorway building. There aren't many large roads to upgrade. Most of what I proposed where upgraded of existing roads...

Only a few where new roads but they were only built in areas which didn't involve much demolition.
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Old September 13th, 2011, 01:10 AM   #83
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Well, 95's there, so we don't save anything by tearing it down. And I don't think it or Vine is useless. (A second crosstown expressway parallel to Vine would not have come close to benefiting us enough to outweigh the neighborhoods destroyed. In fact, I'm not sure it would have had any benefit at all.) I'm not against all highways. Some are necessary. But just salivating over never-realized plans on the theory that all highways are good is a phase I was past about 30 years ago. And salivating over never-realized plans for communities you're not actually a part of is, well, a bit out of line.
I never said it was useless; what I said was that the road has now outlived its raison d'être. But that is an issue for another thread...
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There should be a six-lane bored tunnel from the New Jersey Turnpike to the Long Island Expressway. Long Island has 7.5 million inhabitants but the only way to get out of it is via outdated New York Expressways.
And how do you propose to pay for it? Especially in this post-Big Dig era?
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Originally Posted by Arnorian View Post
Everything you mentioned requires energy, and "oil" is just a synecdoche for fossil fuels. As the prices of fuel continue to rise, suburbs without a more efficient alternative to driving a car will be abandoned.

Driving door-to-door will become a luxury. Governments need to invest in efficient electric public transport. Supporting new urban motorways now is like supporting more waterways in the 19th century England.
Bingo. It's not in fossil fuels but in the greater concept of energy where the greatest growth in the 21st century will lie.

And I have pointed out before--and Suburbanist refuses to believe--that especially in the United States the transition will not be smooth.
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Old September 13th, 2011, 01:27 AM   #84
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A lesson from History:
In Ontarion Canada in 1960's The provincial government built lots of expressways. One of the most important corridors is called 401. It was supposed to connect Québec Autoroute 20 towards Montréal to I-75 in Detroit. They built all of it except one little section in Windsor (Canadian side of Detroit).

As you can see in the map there is no direct expressway access to USA. It was cancelled because people opposed it because they said there will be a lot of traffic flowing in the city.

But recently people wanted the government to start building the expressway again because there is a lot of traffic passing the residental areas. Eventually the expresway will be open in 2013.
The lesson: The traffic volume people are now complaining about is the same traffic volume that was supposed to use the expressway. So, never oppose any developement because of its short-term results. Look at the long-term results and think again.
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Old September 13th, 2011, 01:34 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poshbakerloo View Post
South London is very hard for motorway building. There aren't many large roads to upgrade. Most of what I proposed where upgraded of existing roads...

Only a few where new roads but they were only built in areas which didn't involve much demolition.
At least you could have tought about connecting Guildford Motorway to M4.
And for The south Circullar motorway you could have used A298-A238-A24-A205 corridor.
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Old September 13th, 2011, 01:46 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Nima-Farid View Post
At least you could have tought about connecting Guildford Motorway to M4.
And for The south Circullar motorway you could have used A298-A238-A24-A205 corridor.
Joining the Guildford Motorway to the M4 would involve digging up a lot of Richmond Park...which is one of the historic royal parks, with a lot of listed buildings etc. Although I do see what you mean...
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Old September 13th, 2011, 01:55 AM   #87
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Can digging tunnels under the park with TBMs (Tunnel Boaring machines) be a solution?
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Old September 13th, 2011, 02:01 AM   #88
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I never said it was useless; what I said was that the road has now outlived its raison d'être. But that is an issue for another thread...

And how do you propose to pay for it? Especially in this post-Big Dig era?

Bingo. It's not in fossil fuels but in the greater concept of energy where the greatest growth in the 21st century will lie.

And I have pointed out before--and Suburbanist refuses to believe--that especially in the United States the transition will not be smooth.
The Big Dig has put an end to any large scale Urban Highway project in the Northeast. The problems that have also come with that project have scared anyone from pursuing anymore Big Dig type projects , with the exception of Transit. There are alot of highways that will be covered or ripped up....those projects are cheap. As for the outsiders telling or even suggesting what we residents of the Northeast should do with our highways , we don't like outside input. We tend to rely on inside input and people who have lived in this region. Outsiders and transplants often get booed and laughed at city hall meetings....
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Old September 13th, 2011, 02:03 AM   #89
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Why don't they accept large-scale projects? It will also create lots of jobs as USA is in an economic crisis.
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Old September 13th, 2011, 02:12 AM   #90
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Quote:
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Can digging tunnels under the park with TBMs (Tunnel Boaring machines) be a solution?
It would be, but who will pay for it? As soon as you start to tunnel, the £££ rises up a lot!
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Old September 13th, 2011, 02:30 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexis View Post
The Big Dig has put an end to any large scale Urban Highway project in the Northeast. The problems that have also come with that project have scared anyone from pursuing anymore Big Dig type projects , with the exception of Transit. There are alot of highways that will be covered or ripped up....those projects are cheap. As for the outsiders telling or even suggesting what we residents of the Northeast should do with our highways , we don't like outside input. We tend to rely on inside input and people who have lived in this region. Outsiders and transplants often get booed and laughed at city hall meetings....
Which is what my critique was driving at...
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Why don't they accept large-scale projects? It will also create lots of jobs as USA is in an economic crisis.
The pseudoeconomics politicians have latched on to at the moment... "austerity".
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Old September 13th, 2011, 09:53 AM   #92
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You can bypass the Royal Park and the Golf club via A306-A205 corridor. Because this system would bring a lot of lockec traffic to local streets
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Old September 13th, 2011, 10:38 AM   #93
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A possible future map of Paris Freeway Network: (Inspired by Poshbakerloo's London map)
Link
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Old September 13th, 2011, 10:59 AM   #94
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And how do you propose to pay for it? Especially in this post-Big Dig era?
I'm sorry for being ambitious. Of course any plan that includes a tunnel will never work in the U.S. There are many tunnels in the world, I don't see why this suddenly can't work in the U.S. I don't like this "we can't!" attitude. If we had this attitude 40, 50 years ago we wouldn't have any bridges or tunnels or Interstate Highway system. I feel really bad for you guys that a tunnel is so "out of the box" that it's considered impossible. There are numerous tunnels in Europe that have a length of 5 - 6 miles.
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Old September 13th, 2011, 11:09 AM   #95
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Toronto and Ontarion map
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=...53864,1.352692
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=...81572,2.705383

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Old September 13th, 2011, 11:12 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I'm sorry for being ambitious. Of course any plan that includes a tunnel will never work in the U.S. There are many tunnels in the world, I don't see why this suddenly can't work in the U.S. I don't like this "we can't!" attitude. If we had this attitude 40, 50 years ago we wouldn't have any bridges or tunnels or Interstate Highway system. I feel really bad for you guys that a tunnel is so "out of the box" that it's considered impossible. There are numerous tunnels in Europe that have a length of 5 - 6 miles.
I think they think they are developed enough and demand won't grow and any further spending is useless and will cause problems such as bankrupcy
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Old September 13th, 2011, 12:04 PM   #97
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Quote:
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There are many tunnels in the world, I don't see why this suddenly can't work in the U.S.
The engineers can do it. The point made by the previous poster is about funding. The tunnels under discussion here are multi-billion projects, in an age where budget austerity is the buzz word.

When it comes to austerity, there is of course the perennial question where the cuts ought to be made. Luckily, we're no longer in the 1970s where every type of road construction was blocked at one stage, partially as a result of the oil crises. But I'm not surprised at all that projects in the hundreds-of-millions-per-kilometer league get questioned for their merit. As far as that is concerned, new 12-lane tunnels in NY may indeed be overambitious in the sense that tax payers do not want to pay for them and prefer traffic jams instead.
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Old September 13th, 2011, 02:30 PM   #98
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No more updates?
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Old September 13th, 2011, 04:14 PM   #99
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Stockholm road plan from 1960 (with pre-1962 road numbers). I assume black lines mean motorway and/or other high quality road. Many of these have since been cancelled.
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Old September 13th, 2011, 04:17 PM   #100
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Some maps can be a bit suggestive as they can be an accumulation of routes that were at one time planned. That doesn't necessarily mean all of them were planned to be constructed.
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