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Old September 13th, 2011, 04:30 PM   #101
Nexis
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I think they think they are developed enough and demand won't grow and any further spending is useless and will cause problems such as bankrupcy
Far from it , we have over 300+ Projects in the Coastal Northeastern US that need to be built in this region , unfortunately we tend to fight in the NYC Region which sees many useful Trans-Hudson projects killed. Like the 8 Billion $$ ARC Rail project , that was killed last year , NY/NYC would not pay anything even though it would have enhanced regional travel and allow for at 12 more regional Rail projects to proceed.... NYC/NY then offered a solution which won't do any , NJT , and the PA will likely block it. Theres another mega project in trouble the New Tappan Zee Bridge / I-287 Upgrade / Rail corridor that's in trouble hopefully that doesn't get canceled. Both projects were /are very popular but politicians don't really seem to care. There doing the small unpopular projects at the moment , which don't really put anyone to work and are questionable in there nature. Hopefully things start picking up in this region , because our infrastructure is starting to collapse or is way over capacity. Theres also a problem of cancelling one project to fund others which happens alot in this region , so the smaller projects get done but the more important larger ones don't. The ARC was killed to fund smaller Road and Rail projects around NJ.... The Tappan Zee Bridge project is at 16 Billion $ , killing that would fund most of the projects in New York state but would be political suicide. Then there's also the broken funding issues that plaque the Northeast , which is amplified by the raiding of the Transportation Trust fund....
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Old September 13th, 2011, 04:47 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
The engineers can do it. The point made by the previous poster is about funding. The tunnels under discussion here are multi-billion projects, in an age where budget austerity is the buzz word.

When it comes to austerity, there is of course the perennial question where the cuts ought to be made. Luckily, we're no longer in the 1970s where every type of road construction was blocked at one stage, partially as a result of the oil crises. But I'm not surprised at all that projects in the hundreds-of-millions-per-kilometer league get questioned for their merit. As far as that is concerned, new 12-lane tunnels in NY may indeed be overambitious in the sense that tax payers do not want to pay for them and prefer traffic jams instead.
I know nothing about engineering, so don't understand this as a challenge, just a question: is a twelve-lane tunnel under Manhattan feasible? There's a hell of a lot of stuff (subways, water, power...) there already - the complexity of the underground city in Manhattan is a frequent topic of gee-how-about-that TV shows.

That said, if the issue is making it possible to get from Long Island to the mainland, midtown Manhattan's not the only option. Improvements to the George Washington Bridge/Cross-Bronx Expressway/Throgs Neck Bridge corridor and the route across Staten Island would surely be less expensive and less disruptive.

As far as getting into Manhattan itself is concerned: now that I think of it, there was a controversy a year or so ago: the rail lines between New Jersey and Manhattan are saturated and someone (Amtrak, the feds, the Port Authority...?) did in fact want to build an additional rail tunnel. The governor of New Jersey balked at the expense, to considerable backlash from a portion of the public. I don't know what the end result of that was; someone like Nexis probably does.

(EDIT: I see Nexis posted while I was writing this, so I don't know yet what he said.)
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Old September 13th, 2011, 04:57 PM   #103
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I didn't propose a 12-lane tunnel under Manhattan. That's about impossible to bore, the diameter would be incredible. A six-lane tunnel is feasible, it has been done before. They recently completed a six mile expressway tunnel in Tokyo. I don't understand the funding issues. Where have the NYC region motorists paid tolls and taxes for in the past 40 years? No major projects have been executed since the mid-1970's.
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Old September 13th, 2011, 05:09 PM   #104
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Someone proposed a 12-lane tunnel. Which can happen on forums with multiple participants. :-)

And don't get me started on our national allergy to taxes and government spending.
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Old September 13th, 2011, 05:22 PM   #105
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I didn't propose a 12-lane tunnel under Manhattan. That's about impossible to bore, the diameter would be incredible. A six-lane tunnel is feasible, it has been done before. They recently completed a six mile expressway tunnel in Tokyo. I don't understand the funding issues. Where have the NYC region motorists paid tolls and taxes for in the past 40 years? No major projects have been executed since the mid-1970's.
The Tolls in this region are split for Rail / Road projects due to the anti-Tax movement..... But most of the projects are small between 50-600 Million , the big projects need Federal funding and that could take up to a decade.
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Old September 13th, 2011, 05:40 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I didn't propose a 12-lane tunnel under Manhattan. That's about impossible to bore, the diameter would be incredible. A six-lane tunnel is feasible, it has been done before. They recently completed a six mile expressway tunnel in Tokyo. I don't understand the funding issues. Where have the NYC region motorists paid tolls and taxes for in the past 40 years? No major projects have been executed since the mid-1970's.
You run the risk that a six-lane tunnel would be congested from its opening onwards. Not sure whether that is something that anybody should thrive for. And as Penn's Woods remarked, it may just be more sensible to seek relief via routes that bypass Manhattan, such as upgrades to I-278, I-678 and I-295. At last on the transit routes from Long Island to regions North, West and South of New York. My thought as a non-engineer would be that you can build a tunnel below Manhattan with all the subway tunnels and other stuff under it, but it would probably be a deep tunnel and then still require a lot of work that you do not require for tunnels underneath a river or a mountain (let alone tunnels under farmland, our Dutch national hobby). Accordingly, a tunnel underneath Manhattan would be an exercise that is much more expensive than your everyday tunnel.

As to tolls and taxes paid over the last 40 years: a shame as it is, the income from tolls and road taxes has gone elsewhere and you cannot spend the same dollar twice. New roads require new funds. And in days of budget austerity, those new funds can only come via cuts in other budgets (e.g. healthcare) or via new taxes or tolls.
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Old September 13th, 2011, 05:42 PM   #107
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A new tunnel underpassing Manhattan (Long Island - New Jersey) would be a tolled link of course. An upgrade of the existing expressways is not reasonably possible without probably even higher cost. It's impossible to improve the Trans-Manhattan Expressway (I-95) and its interchanges without incredible cost and destruction of property. The same can be said about the Gowanus Expressway and the BQE. You'll end up tunneling anyway.

It's not like a five or six mile bored tunnel is that extraordinary or out of the box. Many countries have urban tunnels like that. Stockholm is going to build the Förbifart, or bypass, that would run through tunnels for 17 kilometers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%B6rbifart_Stockholm

I don't say it has to be constructed next year. Before all planning is done you're a decade further anyway.
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Old September 13th, 2011, 05:58 PM   #108
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Toll at this type of routes is a tricky thing. A route like Sydney's Cross City Tunnel is heavily underused because of toll, maintaining the congestion and exhaust fumes in town and meaning that the investors will most likely not recover their investment. If NY/NJ/Federal authorities were to create this type of toll route, it would be a bad assumption that they will recover their investment via tolling. The tax payer will take a substantial part of the hit.

That being said, a Long Island - New Jersey tunnel following the I-95 corridor is probably much more sensible than the originally planned Cross-Manhattan route. In doing this, you would eliminate as much Manhattan as you could, and most certainly the area where the ground is full of tunnels, electricity lines, etc. That is also the reason why Stockholm's Förbifart is kind-of feasible. It's proposed route goes under water much more than underneath residential areas.
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Old September 13th, 2011, 06:18 PM   #109
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It's possible to go quite deep with a bored tunnel with this length. There are subsea tunnels in Norway that are less than 8 kilometers long that are deeper than 200 meters below sea level. There's plenty of opportunity to go below most of Manhattan's subterranean infrastructure due to the length of such a tunnel. This would not be possible with a short tunnel.

There are several differences with Sydney and New York. First of all, the Sydney Cross City Tunnel is short, and bypasses only a limited number of traffic lights, with plenty of alternate surface streets available. In New York, the potential for such a tunnel is much bigger, you have 7.5 million people on Long Island on one side and northern New Jersey with 6 or 7 million people on the other side. It's not only shorter, it's also much faster than using the trans-Manhattan routes via the existing tunnels, or the alternate routes via the GWB or BQE. These alternate routes already have tolls at some point, so you will have to pay any way. It also would give direct access to the area's highest capacity routes; the 8-lane Long Island Expressway and the 12-lane New Jersey Turnpike.
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Old September 13th, 2011, 06:36 PM   #110
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In addition to the real potential to replace the antiquated elevated structure on the Gowanus Expressway (I-278) in Brooklyn, NYC with a tunnel, I would continue that tunnel northward on a fairly straight track under Brooklyn from where I-278 makes that turn at the Prospect Expressway to emerge and connect with the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway (I-278) about where it crosses Flushing and Kent Aves. This would allow I-278 through traffic to bypass the very congested parts of the BQE in the area of downtown Brooklyn, allowing the worst part in the middle (the cantilevered section) to be abandoned, while retaining 'spur' access between I-278 and downtown Brooklyn from each end.

Also, IMHO, I would think that a, I-495 Manhattan bypass tunnel would work very well with a one-way eastbound car toll in the $25-30 range, in today's money, considering the tolls charged by the existing bridges and tunnels and the much improved utility that such a bypass tunnel would provide.

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Old September 13th, 2011, 06:39 PM   #111
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There have been proposals to that effect. I remember reading something in the New York Times about a year ago.

It was discussed at AARoads: http://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=3545.0
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Last edited by Penn's Woods; September 13th, 2011 at 06:57 PM. Reason: Found discussion at AARoads - tentativeness removed
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Old September 13th, 2011, 06:58 PM   #112
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Also, IMHO, I would think that a, I-495 Manhattan bypass tunnel would work very well with a one-way eastbound car toll in the $25-30 range, in today's money, considering the tolls charged by the existing bridges and tunnels and the much improved utility that such a bypass tunnel would provide.
Yep. If you want to leave Long Island for New Jersey today, you will have to pay tolls at either the RFK / GWB bridge or the VNB and Goethals bridge, also running in the $ 15 - 20 range plus all congestion en-route.

The main problem in the New York City area are not the number of lanes per se, but the outdated alignment of many expressways and parkways, plus the low-capacity interchanges. The average daily traffic per lane in New York City is much lower than say, Houston or Los Angeles. This is even more pronounced when you consider that commercial vehicles are banned on many parkways and drives, which should theoretically lead to a higher capacity than on the expressways.
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Old September 13th, 2011, 07:19 PM   #113
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The last time I drove through (as opposed to "to") New York City - on my way to New England, following I-95 from central New Jersey all the way to Attleboro, Massachusetts, so the George Washington Bridge and Cross-Bronx Expressway - I had no congestion at all until I was in Connecticut. This was 2 or 3 o'clock on a Wednesday afternoon in early June.
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Old September 13th, 2011, 07:37 PM   #114
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what if they build a bridge, partially suspended.
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Old September 13th, 2011, 10:03 PM   #115
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Helsinki proposed expressway/motorway network (1960's-1970's)
All of these should had been built by 1980, or that was what they thaught in 1970. A real shame they didn't - we had money to build this when environmental activists had ready appeared.

Blue: Built
Green: Approved
Pink: May possibly be built in a far future
Red: Cancelled

I'm sory about a so shitty paint-made picture, but the information is from a book that dates back to 1970 and I didn't find the plans online.

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Old September 13th, 2011, 10:09 PM   #116
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IIn New York, the potential for such a tunnel is much bigger, you have 7.5 million people on Long Island on one side and northern New Jersey with 6 or 7 million people on the other side.
I am not familiar enough with New York to assess how those population numbers translate into actual commutes. It is of course a city in which the vast majority of people works either in their own borough or on Manhattan. Cross-city traffic will not make up a huge percentage of the drivers on New York's routes. But in absolute numbers, the combination of incidental cross-city traffic and people that do have a regular cross-city commute may add up to large enough volumes to justify a construction like this.

But unlike one or two previous posters suggested, I do not think that there is much merit in having a tunnel merely to serve transit traffic, i.e. from Long Island to places beyond Greater New York.
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Old September 13th, 2011, 10:46 PM   #117
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Helsinki proposed expressway/motorway network (1960's-1970's)
All of these should had been built by 1980, or that was what they thaught in 1970. A real shame they didn't - we had money to build this when environmental activists had ready appeared.

Blue: Built
Green: Approved
Pink: May possibly be built in a far future
Red: Cancelled

I'm sory about a so shitty paint-made picture, but the information is from a book that dates back to 1970 and I didn't find the plans online.

So much cancelled
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Old September 13th, 2011, 10:50 PM   #118
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The last time I drove through (as opposed to "to") New York City - on my way to New England, following I-95 from central New Jersey all the way to Attleboro, Massachusetts, so the George Washington Bridge and Cross-Bronx Expressway - I had no congestion at all until I was in Connecticut. This was 2 or 3 o'clock on a Wednesday afternoon in early June.
You got lucky.. However the Cross-Bronx is one of the better East-West expressways. Try driving from Jersey using the Holland Tunnel at the same time, good luck having no congestion. Even once you are on Long Island from my experience you usually had congestion until the Cross Island Parkway on any of the freeways going East. The problem with going from NYC to Long Island or the opposite is all the traffic has to go onto I-278 which is really outdated and doesn't have enough capacity for the traffic. Directly from there you are limited to going way south to the Shore/Southern State Parkway, Long Island Island Expressway, or Grand Central Parkway. You have lets say 8 miles before you get more options and in one of the most urban areas in the country, its a mess daily. Tunneling all that needs to be improved is unrealistically expensive and lets not forget how the "Big Dig" in Boston went. In my opinion the only way to solve congestion in NYC is in the true New York fashion of going vertical. I can see I-495 being a double level expressway to at least Flushing with local lanes on the the bottom along dedicated truck lanes on each level. On I-278 I can even see it as triple level with one level dedicated to those commuting further with limited exits. It's not the perfect solution but it is most realistic, with technology now the roadways can have less noise impact and with some extra money less of an eyesore. I've been going to New York since I was 4 and they've constantly had construction on the the Expressways. If they can build a double level expressway in Dallas, why not New York?

Last edited by I-275westcoastfl; September 13th, 2011 at 11:03 PM.
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Old September 13th, 2011, 11:10 PM   #119
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Is there a way from Long Island to NJ that is not tolled?
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Old September 13th, 2011, 11:46 PM   #120
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You have to cross the Hudson River to get from New Jersey to New York (unless you go from New Jersey to Staten Island, New York, in which case you're crossing other waterways). Every bridge and tunnel crossing the Hudson (or the Staten Island waterways) south of Albany, 200 km north of New York City, has a toll, and until you get well north of the city they're among the highest tolls in the country.

Incidentally and as a point of history, there was no way to cross the Hudson in the New York area by train until about 1910. Until the Pennsylvania Railroad built the tunnels into Penn Station (now used by the national passenger system Amtrak and by New Jersey's commuter-rail system), all trains approaching New York from the west - meaning from most of the country - terminated at stations on the New Jersey side of the river and then you crossed by ferry. With competing (then-privately-owned) railroads having their own stations in New Jersey, and people wanting to get to different parts of New York, there must have been 20 or 30 ferry routes around 1900....
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