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Old September 14th, 2011, 12:30 AM   #121
Nexis
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The Whole I-278 could be buried and widened to 12 lanes , as for building up we value our air rights in this region alot. Most of the Cut Freeways will get covered with Parks and Buildings over the next 2 decades , building a triple decker Freeway would not work....the NIMBYS would block that before it would even come up for a vote at City Hall. NYC's problem can be solved with more Rail Capacity and New Freight Tunnel for LI , since most of the congestion in NYC is by Trucks not cars. Not alot of people drive in this region , so it could be worse. Ridership on the Transit systems is at 15 Million out the 21 Million who live in this region , that went up by 750,000 this past decade. Its supposed to grow by another 800,000 this decade , there are some large Rail projects that could put a dent in the growing areas of this region that mostly use commute by car or bus but those are still on hold.....These combined projects could take 500,000 addition cars off the highways of NYC and Urban / Suburban Jersey. The reason why the Cross-Manhattan routes never got built is probably due to lack of Real Demand and promises of More Rail projects....
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Old September 14th, 2011, 12:31 AM   #122
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Quote:
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Everything you mentioned requires energy, and "oil" is just a synecdoche for fossil fuels. As the prices of fuel continue to rise, suburbs without a more efficient alternative to driving a car will be abandoned.
.
There are doomsday texts about "the inevitable abandonment of far-out neighborhoods due to oil crisis" since 1973. Almost 40 years of "let's not build more freeways because they will be soon useless"... mind you, many freeways built around that time have already been reconstructed.

There is enough coal and uranium out there to run a lot of cars on electricity. And 2nd generation biofuels with HIGH (rather than low) yield per energy input unit. Surely, it will make some agricultural prices rise, but so be it. Developed countries can afford that.
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Old September 14th, 2011, 12:37 AM   #123
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Quote:
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Ridership on the Transit systems is at 15 Million out the 21 Million who live in this region
It seems you have no idea how such numbers work. 15 million passengers is absolutely not the same as 15 out of 21 million people. Most people commute at least two times a day (two-way trips). Hence, about 7.5 million or less out of 21 million people are using transit, not 15 million.

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These combined projects could take 500,000 addition cars off the highways of NYC and Urban / Suburban Jersey.
Another common misconception is that each transit traveler equals one less car on the road, which is absolutely not the case. Don't over-inflate such numbers.
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Old September 14th, 2011, 12:40 AM   #124
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It seems you have no idea how such numbers work. 15 million passengers is absolutely not the same as 15 out of 21 million people. Most people commute at least two times a day (two-way trips). Hence, about 7.5 million or less out of 21 million people are using transit, not 15 million.
Its 15 Million , they don't count the double trips....at least for monthly passes I asked NJT and the MTA. So it is 15 Million ,not every transit system counts the Double trips. They do that on some , but most count the one ways..... Technology has made this possible.
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Old September 14th, 2011, 12:42 AM   #125
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There is enough coal and uranium out there to run a lot of cars on electricity. And 2nd generation biofuels with HIGH (rather than low) yield per energy input unit.
And that's if we don't go through an energetic breakthrough. There is energy everywhere, from energy cords in the universe to the primordial energy that move subparticles inside atoms.
If we can harness that, if we can find a clean, abundant, free, new energy, there will be no reason for us to live like sardines in a concrete jungle.
But by then, hopefully our lives will be more meaningful than transporting our body in a metal box (train/car/bus) twice a day from a concrete box (house) to another concrete box (office).
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Old September 14th, 2011, 12:43 AM   #126
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Its 15 Million , they don't count the double trips....at least for monthly passes I asked NJT and the MTA. So it is 15 Million ,not every transit system counts the Double trips. They do that on some , but most count the one ways..... Technology has made this possible.
Don't you see 15 million is unrealistic? That is over 70% of the entire population, or maybe 90% of the student/working age population of the region who would use transit, leaving only 10% by car in the whole metropolitan area. Even downtown Manhattan doesn't have a 10% car share, not to mention the entire metropolitan/suburban area. Don't throw in numbers if you don't know what they mean.
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Old September 14th, 2011, 12:49 AM   #127
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Don't you see 15 million is unrealistic? That is over 70% of the entire population, or maybe 90% of the student/working age population of the region who would use transit, leaving only 10% by car in the whole metropolitan area. Even downtown Manhattan doesn't have a 10% car share, not to mention the entire metropolitan/suburban area. Don't throw in numbers if you don't know what they mean.
This also includes Students who go to School , they are allowed to use Transit for a discount. So you see the Transit grow by a Million during the School months and drop off in the Summer. How is 15 Million unrealistic? 60% of NYC uses Transit and 40% of the Suburbs use Transit , I know what the numbers mean.
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Old September 14th, 2011, 12:54 AM   #128
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60% of NYC uses Transit and 40% of the Suburbs use Transit , I know what the numbers mean.
Get a calculator and see if you can get to 15 million by taking 60% of 8 million and 40% of 10 million, assuming your percentages are right in the first place, because the others you posted are highly questionable.
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Old September 14th, 2011, 12:57 AM   #129
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Get a calculator and see if you can get to 15 million by taking 60% of 8 million and 40% of 10 million, assuming your percentages are right in the first place, because the others you posted are highly questionable.
They might be off by 1-2 million buts that's about it....
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Old September 14th, 2011, 12:59 AM   #130
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They might be off by 1-2 million buts that's about it....
Ah, right, the numbers are correct, but they may be off by a few million...

I hope NYC transportation planning is a bit more sophisticated than that.
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Old September 14th, 2011, 02:33 AM   #131
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Quote:
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The Whole I-278 could be buried and widened to 12 lanes , as for building up we value our air rights in this region alot. Most of the Cut Freeways will get covered with Parks and Buildings over the next 2 decades , building a triple decker Freeway would not work....the NIMBYS would block that before it would even come up for a vote at City Hall. NYC's problem can be solved with more Rail Capacity and New Freight Tunnel for LI , since most of the congestion in NYC is by Trucks not cars. Not alot of people drive in this region , so it could be worse. Ridership on the Transit systems is at 15 Million out the 21 Million who live in this region , that went up by 750,000 this past decade. Its supposed to grow by another 800,000 this decade , there are some large Rail projects that could put a dent in the growing areas of this region that mostly use commute by car or bus but those are still on hold.....These combined projects could take 500,000 addition cars off the highways of NYC and Urban / Suburban Jersey. The reason why the Cross-Manhattan routes never got built is probably due to lack of Real Demand and promises of More Rail projects....
I agree that NIMBYs would be the largest obstacle but burying the entire I-278? Thats a joke right? The cost would be so astronomical its hard to even put a figure on it. In fact I bet for the quarter of the cost of burying the whole I-278 you could add a second level to both 495 and 278 and still probably have money leftover. Fact is when New York was growing the elevated train tracks helped it grow, they weren't pretty but served a function to help a city and today are actually iconic, can you imagine Queens without a 7 train? Nowadays they also can easily make the elevated structures a lot nicer and maybe even iconic as well. Honestly is an old outdated highway with constant traffic jams and road surfaces like driving on the moon better than an elevated structure? Cars still make the majority of NYC congestion, trucks are a problem and they tear up the roads but I always see more cars than trucks. Even if by your logic trucks make up the largest congestion transit wouldn't solve that. Truck lanes for trucks that are traveling long distance would probably increase traffic flow. Separating commuting traffic and local traffic would probably do wonders as well. In fact people are commuting from other states, you think that will stop? The Cross-Manhattan routes never got built because of NIMBYs and its one of the few cases that I'm glad it didn't happen, Manhattan wasn't meant for it. But leaving Manhattan with the setup of sprawl should have adequate highways for people to use.
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Old September 14th, 2011, 02:46 AM   #132
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Although it would never happen, and for several reasons I wouldn't want it to happen, here is a proposal for mass Motorways for the Liverpool-Manchester metro area...

They are a mix of real life cancelled motorways but also my own ideas. A lot of it is upgraded existing road, or new roads through industrial areas...

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?msi...60097,1.454315




My London plan for anyone who missed it...
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Old September 14th, 2011, 05:56 AM   #133
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I'm sorry for being ambitious. Of course any plan that includes a tunnel will never work in the U.S. There are many tunnels in the world, I don't see why this suddenly can't work in the U.S. I don't like this "we can't!" attitude. If we had this attitude 40, 50 years ago we wouldn't have any bridges or tunnels or Interstate Highway system. I feel really bad for you guys that a tunnel is so "out of the box" that it's considered impossible. There are numerous tunnels in Europe that have a length of 5 - 6 miles.
The problem's not technicals. Even though I don't really agree with you, looking at some of the literature on Seattle's planned I-5 replacement (which would be a similar project, BTW)...I am thinking about the open hostility the Republican Tea Party has towards any sort of large government spending...
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Old September 14th, 2011, 06:02 AM   #134
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Incidentally and as a point of history, there was no way to cross the Hudson in the New York area by train until about 1910. Until the Pennsylvania Railroad built the tunnels into Penn Station...
Noticed this and couldn't help but make a correction: the Hudson and Manhattan Railroad, predecessor to today's PATH, was the first permanent connection across the Hudson River, predating Penn Station and its tunnels by two years. Sure, you had to transfer at Hoboken from one train to another to reach Manhattan, and it didn't have the sort of radical effect on Midtown real-estate that Penn Station did, but it was the first.
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Old September 14th, 2011, 09:13 AM   #135
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Nice map for Manchester Liverpool Metro Motorway Network!
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Old September 14th, 2011, 11:23 AM   #136
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Autostradas and Superstrada's of Roma proposed based on vurrent wide roads and possible corridors
http://maps.google.com/maps/mm?hl=en
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Old September 14th, 2011, 11:37 AM   #137
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I agree that NIMBYs would be the largest obstacle but burying the entire I-278? Thats a joke right? The cost would be so astronomical its hard to even put a figure on it. In fact I bet for the quarter of the cost of burying the whole I-278 you could add a second level to both 495 and 278 and still probably have money leftover. Fact is when New York was growing the elevated train tracks helped it grow, they weren't pretty but served a function to help a city and today are actually iconic, can you imagine Queens without a 7 train? Nowadays they also can easily make the elevated structures a lot nicer and maybe even iconic as well. Honestly is an old outdated highway with constant traffic jams and road surfaces like driving on the moon better than an elevated structure? Cars still make the majority of NYC congestion, trucks are a problem and they tear up the roads but I always see more cars than trucks. Even if by your logic trucks make up the largest congestion transit wouldn't solve that. Truck lanes for trucks that are traveling long distance would probably increase traffic flow. Separating commuting traffic and local traffic would probably do wonders as well. In fact people are commuting from other states, you think that will stop? The Cross-Manhattan routes never got built because of NIMBYs and its one of the few cases that I'm glad it didn't happen, Manhattan wasn't meant for it. But leaving Manhattan with the setup of sprawl should have adequate highways for people to use.
No , there's a plan to bury it from the Gowanus to the Queens Border.....and the plan is very popular in Brooklyn. I beleave the cost is anywhere from 2-5 Billion $$.... The biggest congestion problem in NYC is the trucks who go from NJ to LI , through NYC , and so building a Freight tunnel to connect the 2 would really take alot of trucks off the highways but that was blocked by NYC due to Train Noise. The other Congestion is from Taxis and Buses , like ive said before most people do not drive into Manhattan or drive from LI to work in NJ....So there really isn't a demand for this. However ,LI could use a New Bridge to CT or Westchester.....across the LI Sound that would cut the congestion on the Cross-Bronx by a decent %. The pictures below are of a Typical Manhattan street.....mostly filled with Delivery Trucks , Taxis , Private Taxis and City Buses , personal cars are outnumbered. Most of these cars travel between the boroughs , NJ isn't a big destination for New Yorkers and we also like it like that....

image hosted on flickr

Manhattan traffic with yellow cabs by Willem van Bergen, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

Traffic by bris1969, on Flickr
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Old September 14th, 2011, 11:57 AM   #138
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Website address on garbage can! cool!
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Old September 14th, 2011, 01:30 PM   #139
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@ChrisZwolle
You can't compare European and American situation that easily. The average European commutes a shorter distance, more often uses public transport, and has a choice of using the car or not. The average American doesn't have that choice.

There isn't a anti-suburban rhetoric in Europe because the suburbs there are integrated and often self-contained parts of the city. Europeans live in the suburbs, Americans escape to them.

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There are doomsday texts about "the inevitable abandonment of far-out neighborhoods due to oil crisis" since 1973. Almost 40 years of "let's not build more freeways because they will be soon useless"... mind you, many freeways built around that time have already been reconstructed.

There is enough coal and uranium out there to run a lot of cars on electricity. And 2nd generation biofuels with HIGH (rather than low) yield per energy input unit. Surely, it will make some agricultural prices rise, but so be it. Developed countries can afford that.
There is a big difference in cost of urban and non-urban motorways. The non-urban ones should be built where ever needed. The urban ones should not, because they're never wide enough. That money should be invested in subways, suburban rail, trams and trolleybuses.

You're right about the doomsday predictions starting in the '70s, as a result of the oil crisis. That crisis was political in nature. We're nearing problems that are not, and are much more difficult to solve. Peak oil already happened.

There isn't enough lithium for the batteries to make all cars electric. When food prices rise so do biofuel prices. Rich countries may be able to afford that, but poor countries wouldn't. Many countries are unstable as it is, including some large oil exporters. If they start collapsing, where do you think the refugees will go? Would oil exports from those countries stay the same?

Nuclear energy is a way out, but it's a herd sell to the voters. I won't even go into pollution and climate problems the increase in the use coal and petroleum form oil sands would bring.
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Old September 14th, 2011, 01:45 PM   #140
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Toulouse:
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