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Old September 26th, 2011, 10:54 PM   #41
chicagogeorge
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Chicago wont be in third by 2030. Houston will be. Working class, and poor families are flocking out of Chicago (especially African Americans). Gentrification wont fill in the gap. IN fact, I can see the Hispanic population begin to fall as well as the African American and White population by then. We are ultimately going to bottom out at around 2.3-2.5 million.....


Probably by 2040, Houston might, and Dallas probably will also surpass Chicago in metropolitan area population (CSA) the way they have been growing.... If trends continue that is...




According to Houston city limits projections, the 2010 census came in lower than the projections, but still growing rather quickly.


Houston city limits projections:
2000: 1,953,631
2010: 2,240,974
2020: 2,520,926
2030: 2,798,278
2040: 3,073,268
2050: 3,349,540
2060: 3,626,591



Here is for metropolitan area-

Houston Metropolitan Area:
2000 4,715,407
2005 5,295,975
2010 5,979,911
2015 6,754,896
2020 7,599,748
2025 8,515,677
2030 9,504,335
2035 10,570,390
2040 11,717,086

http://www.houstontx.gov/planning/De...rojections.htm


And we all know in which direction the city of Chicago's population is headed regardless of what those goofy urbanists at the Northeastern Illinois Planning Commission project http://www.cmap.illinois.gov/


The metropolitan area population on the otherhand should continue to grow. Here is the MSA population forecast for 2040 just for the Illinois counties of the Chicago area which will top 11 million. Add an additional 150,000 in Kankakee, 700,000+ in Northwest Indiana, and 200,000+ for Kenosha county Wisconsin and then the CSA pushes over 12 million. Plus at that point Rockford and maybe Milwaukee might be joining the Chicago CSA....

http://www.cmap.illinois.gov/image/i...=1297272557557

Btw, from someone who has lived in the city of Chicago from the time I was 3 years old in 1975 until December of 2010 when I moved to the south suburbs..... I don't miss it that much (except being only 10-15 minutes away from the beach). After all, if I want the city life I just have to drive in
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for the Pelasgians, too, were a Greek nation originally from the Peloponnesus
The Roman Antiquities of Dionysius of Halicarnassus
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...assus/1B*.html

Macedonia, of course, is a part of Greece". Strabo, VII, Frg. 9
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...ragments*.html

But north of the gulf, the first inhabitants are Greeks called Epirotes....
Procopius
http://books.google.com/books?id=9m6...page&q&f=false

Last edited by chicagogeorge; September 27th, 2011 at 04:42 AM.
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Old September 28th, 2011, 04:28 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by hyrule-mpls View Post
i dont know.. i go to chicago a lot and when people ask where im from and i say im from the twin cities they generally dont act superior to me..
Most of the people I meet here are from other states, including myself.
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Old October 1st, 2011, 07:43 PM   #43
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I'm going to repeat what Seattlelive mentioned earlier:

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Originally Posted by Seattlelife View Post
Using municipal populations is a ridiculous way to compare populations.
I'm tired of hearing that Houston is the country's "4th largest city". 4th largest municipality is much more accurate.

When we look at MSAs, Houston ranks 6th (Chicago 3rd), and Houston's MSA ranks 9th (Chicago is still 3rd). The reason for this is because Houston proper encompasses a much larger percentage of its respective metropolitan area than Chicago does. That's why looking at municipal populations (as well as municipal statistics on crime, unemployment, etc), is disingenuous.

It would be as if Brooklyn/Queens/Staten Island/Bronx seceded from NYC proper (leaving only Manhattan with a population of 1.5 million), and then everybody claiming that New York is a "smaller city" than Chicago and Los Angeles. It's just a disingenuous comparison.

Now, Chicago proper may be dwarfed by Houston proper in the near future. Or it may not. We're all assuming that current population growth trends will continue for 2 more decades. And, chicagogeorge is trying to put a libertarian spin on this: that people -particularly the poor- are fleeing Chicago "because of the taxes", even though low-income people are highly unlikely to pay high property taxes, either because the value of their homes is small, or because they don't own a home. But that's a favorite libertarian talking point. Poor people are actually leaving (for the suburbs) because of schools, and crime, and because low-income areas are underserved by public transit (people from the South Side spend far more time commuting to work than people from the North Side). And they're also zoned out of better areas of the city proper, as well as many middle-class suburbs (i.e. exclusionary zoning). So, it's a complex fusion of several reasons. There's lot's of factors going on, and we can't assume that these growth rates will continue. Chicago and Detroit were the fast-growing cities of the latter half of the 19th century. Detroit then went into decline in the latter 20th century. Los Angeles was the hot city during the 20th century, but this is no longer the case. Texas, from the 1970s onwards, embraced a California-style growth model -combined with some Texas-specific policies- but there's reasons to believe that this can't be sustained much longer. So we don't know where these rankings will be in 2030. We're all just a bunch of amateurs making guesses based on current population trends. Correction: I should say that we're all just a bunch of amateurs making guesses based on pre-2008 population trends.

As for whether or not gentrification will make up for the loss of lower-income people from Chicago proper: well this certainly didn't happen in the 2000-2010 decade, but the city did grow during the 1990-2000 decade. So, we don't know. Chicago proper's population loss in the 2000-2010 decade (and key word: Chicago proper, because the Chicago metro area actually grew, in fact the Chicago MSA grew faster than LA's)...the population loss was mostly from low-income areas that also happened to be low-density. Meanwhile, more affluent, denser areas grew in population. Combined with the reasons I mentioned earlier (crime, schools, commuting times, zoning laws, etc), these are things that the city needs to address, and "gentrification" (in combination with inclusionary zoning policies, allowing affordable housing side-by-side with market-rate housing in dense districts well-served by transit) may in fact be Chicago's meal ticket. That's why the further development of places like Hyde Park, Uptown, Southworks, etc, is very important, and we need to not repeat the mistakes from Lincoln Park when the poor were completely priced out.
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Old October 1st, 2011, 07:48 PM   #44
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Very well put.
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Old October 1st, 2011, 09:53 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skyduster View Post
I And, chicagogeorge is trying to put a libertarian spin on this: that people -particularly the poor- are fleeing Chicago "because of the taxes", even though low-income people are highly unlikely to pay high property taxes, either because the value of their homes is small, or because they don't own a home. But that's a favorite libertarian talking point.
Uh sorry there is no libertarian spin on anything I said. It's reality whether you want to accept it or not. What is so hard to understand that people go where there are jobs and where it affordable to live. You even said it yourself people are being priced out of areas of Chicago.


Are property taxes the only form of city taxes that people pay? Where are the jobs nowadays? Certainly there is more job growth outside the city than in...

Plus, I myself am in the upper middle income bracket, and I thought my property taxes were way too high for the lot size that I had in the city, and that is a part of the reason why I chose to move. Now I have twice the house, more than twice the lot, and pay less in taxes. Sounds like a win for my family.



Quote:
Poor people are actually leaving (for the suburbs) because of schools, and crime, and because low-income areas are underserved by public transit (people from the South Side spend far more time commuting to work than people from the North Side).
These are definitely factors, though crime rates are actually lower now than they were when those same neighborhoods in the South and West sides were growing in population back in the 80's and early 90's. But what about middle income? They are leaving in droves too. You don't think that higher taxes, and other city fees play a role? It certainly did for me. However, yes, poor schools were the biggest factor in my decision to leave my neighborhood of over 35 years. I have two young boys, and I don't want them to have to deal with what I had to endure when I went through CPS. Trust me, it's only marginally better now than what it was in the 70's and 80's.


Quote:

Even so, Long understands why other black residents of her neighborhood — at least six families during the past few years — have left for the suburbs or other cities. "Taxes are high, rent is high, groceries are expensive, jobs are hard to find," she says.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...s-exodus_n.htm

There was even a decline in many inner core suburbs where crime rates aren't the issue, schools are pretty good... So what gives? What is the draw to the outer suburbs? It certainly isn't for it's excellent public transportation, and it's pedestrian friendly central planning (although there is a spattering of that here and there). It is however much more affordable.




Quote:
and because low-income areas are underserved by public transit (people from the South Side spend far more time commuting to work than people from the North Side
So moving to the suburbs because public transportation is bad on the South and West sides of the city is there option? I do agree, public transit on the far South and West sides is not nearly as good as on the North side or along the lake.... But do you think public transportation is going to be better in Aurora or Elgin? Poor public transportation does cost the region money that is for sure, but it sure as hell isn't stopping people from moving to suburbs that lack it.

There are no jobs in those parts of the city. The jobs are elsewhere (particularly the suburbs) which is why people are moving elsewhere. So lets ask the question... Why are companies, and businesses relocating out to the suburbs? That's an easy one.... Cost. Tax breaks and other incentives for relocation that suburban municipalities are willing to give businesses that the city will not.


And like I said, it's not only poor residents escaping crime leaving the city...

Quote:
Choosing the suburbs
They rented on the city's outskirts, then bought a home in suburban Bolingbrook, 30 miles from Chicago, in 2009. Their son, Earnest III, was born almost four months ago. "Bolingbrook was the last, last, last place we wanted to go," Davis says, "but when we looked at it, it just made sense."
They bought a big house with reasonable taxes, but her commute to her job in health administration downtown is a two-hour train ride each way. It's worth it, she says. They pay $1,350 a month for day care; a facility in Chicago run by the same company costs $1,900 a month. Their neighborhood is diverse and filled with young couples "who made the same choice we did," she says.
Henry Guice, 46, is black and grew up in a tough Chicago neighborhood, where he returned after graduating from college. When it came time for him and his wife, Patricia, 46, to buy a house five years ago, though, they ended up in Plainfield with their three children.
The family still attends church in Chicago, but Guice loves returning to his four-bedroom home with a backyard overlooking a pond. "It's a beautiful picture, like a postcard," he says.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...s-exodus_n.htm



Quote:
Originally Posted by skyduster View Post
ITexas, from the 1970s onwards, embraced a California-style growth model -combined with some Texas-specific policies- but there's reasons to believe that this can't be sustained much longer.

Specifically what? I'm not saying Houston or Dallas necessarily will continue their explosive growth rates, but at this time indicates any dramatic reversal of trends? Definitely not from a lack of space. During the 1990's Houston and Dallas' metro area grew by 25-30%. This last decade they both continued to grow by 25%+.


Quote:
So we don't know where these rankings will be in 2030. We're all just a bunch of amateurs making guesses based on current population trends. Correction: I should say that we're all just a bunch of amateurs making guesses based on pre-2008 population trends.

We certainly are all guessing. Nobody saw Chicago's dramatic population decline. But if you were a betting man.... Lets see now, 5 decades of decline, versus 1 decade of growth for Chicago's population. Eventually we will bottom out.


As for Chicago's growth between 1990-2000.... It was a fluke. Brought on by increased Hispanic migration. But now, even Hispanic immigrants are bypassing the city all together and moving into more affordable suburbs. It's not like Aurora, Waukegan, or Elgin don't have lots of crime or problems with their school system. Still, increasingly, working Hispanic immigrants are finding their way there instead of Little Village, or Humbolt Park, or Back of the Yards.


Quote:
Latinos and other immigrants are bypassing Chicago altogether to settle in suburbs such as Aurora, Elgin and Waukegan. In the last 20 years, the traditional migration pattern has changed dramatically. No longer are immigrants coming first to Chicago, staying for several years and then leaving once they save enough money to buy a house in the suburbs.
http://www.suntimes.com/news/escalon...-promises.html





Quote:

Last to leave Chicago, turn out the lights
Neil steinberg nsteinberg@suntimes.com
Reprints

Now I feel bad.

Had I known, when I left the city in 2000 to move my family to the leafy suburban paradise of Northbrook, that 200,000 of my fellow Chicagoans would follow clumping after us, fleeing en masse to the surrounding region, according to the United States Census, well, I might have given it a second thought.

OK, that’s not true. It wasn’t my fault. People left Chicago over the past decade for a variety of reasons — some were public housing residents who had their homes demolished out from under them. Some lost their jobs in the Great Recession and had to seek work elsewhere. And yes some — 20,000? 40,000? the number is unknowable — were middle class wage slaves like myself (OK, lower upper middle class wage slaves, to borrow George Orwell’s term) who couldn’t bring themselves to fling their darling children into the stormy chop of the Chicago public school system and couldn’t make the nut at a private school that might not deign to accept them anyway, whatever the price.

And yes, there are good Chicago public schools, and yes, it is possible to get one’s children into them, or so I’m told. But the question was: Is this a risk you’re willing to take?

We weren’t.

Sure, there were other factors. Our boys rode their Big Wheels around and around the dining room table, because it was too much of a hassle for them to find an adult to escort them down the flight of stairs, out the three, count ’em, three locked doors, to finally the busy street and tiny, dog-piss murdered patch of blasted grass, with its anemic locust tree, that served as their playground. A backyard was a plus, or would have been, had they ever put their video games down. But it was there.

This is not to criticize the city — Geez, hold your fire. People seem to have this bellyful of vindictiveness, boiling in their guts, and are scanning the horizon, desperate to find somebody, anybody, for them to spew it onto. Look! A guy who fled to the suburbs! The treachery of betrayal! He’s dissing our city! Get him!

Chicago’s population loss is ominous — first, because a city needs people. Detroit had a population of 2 million in 1950; it has 800,000; just 40 percent of that, now, and it’ll be interesting to see whether our elephant step in Detroit’s direction over the past 10 years will tarnish Mayor Daley’s legacy, the central leg of which is that we didn’t become Detroit under his watch. It isn’t the same if you tack “yet” at the end, “We didn’t become Detroit yet.”

Yes “we.” Because the concerns of Chicago are the concerns of Northern Illinois, which rises or falls with it, and while the bowl haircuts Downstate would like to cut off the city, out of prejudice and parochialism, and the city would like to disown suburbanites like me, out of pure spite, the truth is we are all bound together, sink or swim.

Frankly, I’m not expecting a lot of attention to the population loss story. Like global warming, it’s just too grim for many people to accept or think about. Population loss is connected to every urban problem. How to get those people back? Well, fix the schools, cut crime, create jobs, lower taxes. That’s a start.

My guess is that, when Mayor Daley does his victory lap this spring, basking in the glow of being — everybody, all together now: “the best mayor in the best city in the whole world!” — the incredible shrinking population will be barely a footnote, the throat clearing in between listing his various glories and accomplishments (which were? Oh right, sparing us the fate of Detroit, so far).

Heck, maybe this can be spun as new, edgy thinking. The old concept — that a city is only as strong as its residents — that’s so 20th century. Maybe Chicago can be recast as a brand, an icon on your iPhone. Maybe the city can collect royalties and clicks. If Chicago can have 3 million friends on its Facebook page, maybe it won’t matter how many people actually live here. Nobody really lives in Farmville, do they? Chicago can assume a disembodied online identity: “Click Chicago.” We could be pioneers in this regard. It sounds like something Mayor Daley would hear about on one of his visits to France and get behind.

Daley hasn’t yet said what he’s doing after he retires, has he? Besides giving expensive speeches. He’ll still live in Chicago, right? That’ll be something, to bump into him in line for bagels at the Eleven City Diner.

Maybe we’ll rub elbows. Because as useful as the suburbs have been — really, very nice people, if you can find them — the boys are teenagers, soon college-bound. Then, having done my duty, I plan to move back to the city. (“What about me?” my wife asks. “You’re invited,” I say). That’s where all the fun is

http://www.suntimes.com/news/steinbe...he-lights.html



Basically, the city government and developers (who are in bed together) have done everything possible to create this situation.
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for the Pelasgians, too, were a Greek nation originally from the Peloponnesus
The Roman Antiquities of Dionysius of Halicarnassus
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...assus/1B*.html

Macedonia, of course, is a part of Greece". Strabo, VII, Frg. 9
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...ragments*.html

But north of the gulf, the first inhabitants are Greeks called Epirotes....
Procopius
http://books.google.com/books?id=9m6...page&q&f=false

Last edited by chicagogeorge; October 2nd, 2011 at 05:00 AM.
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Old October 2nd, 2011, 05:07 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by chicagogeorge View Post
There was even a decline in many inner core suburbs where crime rates aren't the issue, schools are pretty good... So what gives? What is the draw to the outer suburbs? It certainly isn't for it's excellent public transportation, and it's pedestrian friendly central planning (although there is a spattering of that here and there). It is however much more affordable.
It has more to do with demography than anything. As the inner-suburbs continue to age, the average household size continues to drop. This tends to cause the population to drop as often the number of housing units tend to remain static.

One example would be Forest Park vs Plainfield. In Forest Park, the population dropped by nearly 10% between 2000 and 2010. During that period, the city saw its average household size drop from 1.97 to 1.81. If the city in 2010 had the same average household size as it did in 2000, the drop would have only been 1.6%, which can be attributed to a loss of 147 housing units during that period.

On the other hand you have Plainfield. The population ballooned by over 200% during the decade from 13,000 to nearly 40,000. Not only did the city see over 8,000 new housing units built during that period, it also saw its average household size grow from 2.82 to 3.16.

Why is the average household size shrinking in Forest Park and growing in Plainfield? Because the people in Forest Park tend to be older with adult children. Those adult children probably headed out to Plainfield and set up house there for the simple fact that housing is more abundant in Plainfield than it is in Forest Park.

If Forest Park cleared out all the empty nesters and replaced them with young families, (i.e. if Forest Park had the same household size as Plainfield) then the population would be nearly 25,000.
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Old October 2nd, 2011, 05:57 AM   #47
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And I thought most of the old folks around here were packing up and moving to Arizona or Florida Who knows, maybe those childless young urban professionals who now live in the hip areas of the city will replace those aging empty nesters of the inner core suburbs. Then who will replace those young urban professionals living in the city? Maybe that's what the city is becoming... A living quarter at a stage of a young person's life. Just so they can get a taste of the urban experience before they eventually head to the suburbs

Demographics are definitely part of the inner core population loss. However, at the same time economics are also. Cost of housing and property taxes are higher in the inner core suburbs that is a fact.

Those young families with children should in theory move to inner core proximity to the city suburbs rather than the outer suburbs, however housing in Forest Park is much more expensive than Plainfield. Evanston with it's college and urbanesque atmosphere has a median family size of 2.2 and 20.2% under 18. Naperville averages 2.9 people per family and 30% under 18... Very few families starting off can afford a house in Evanston or Forest Park, but have a better chance in Naperville or Plainfield.







Quote:
Inner Suburbs: As in New York and Seattle, Chicago’s inner suburbs grew slowly. The inner suburbs include the part of Cook County that is outside the city of Chicago as well as Lake County, Indiana (home of Gary), which shares the city of Chicago's eastern border. The inner suburbs added fewer than 30,000 residents and grew only one percent.

This suggests some limitations to the newly developing mantra that has inner suburbs will be the locus of future growth although there are scattered inner suburbs in other cities (such as Hoboken, New Jersey) that did see growth. Perhaps the old mantra, about people returning to the city from which they had never come was finally quashed by the realities of the 2010 census.

Outer Suburbs: The outer suburbs, which include the remaining counties of the metropolitan area, grew at a rate of 16.5 percent, actually grew faster than the national average of approximately 10 percent. The outer suburbs added more than 500,000 people. The largest growth, 175,000 was in Will County, to the south, one of the five “collar counties” that used to define the boundaries of the metropolitan area. McHenry County, the most distant of the collar counties added 100,000. The fastest growth was in far suburban and also southern Kendall County, which more than doubled in population.
and jobs are the key issue which more and more are being located outside the city.


Quote:
Dispersing Employment: Chicago's dispersion extends to employment. Despite having the second strongest central business district in the nation (after Manhattan), jobs are rapidly decentralizing. Last year the Downtown Loop Alliance reported that private sector employment in the Loop fell 20 percent during the last decade. Overall, the downtown area of Chicago now represents approximately 10 percent of regional employment, barely half the percentage of Manhattan or Washington, DC.

American community survey data from 2009 indicates the total employment in the North West corridor along Interstate 90 has at least as much employment as downtown Chicago. This corridor, anchored by the edge city (Note 4) of Schaumburg, is typical of emerging suburban centers around the nation. Only two percent of workers in this corridor use transit for commuting.

Another corridor, along Interstate 88 (anchored by Lisle and Aurora) has at least two thirds the employment of downtown, with only one percent commuting by transit. The North Shore corridor encompassing parts of northern Cook County and Lake County is of similar size to the Interstate 88 corridor and has a larger transit work trip market share of five percent.

Downtown, on the other hand, has the third largest transit work trip market share in the nation, following Manhattan and Brooklyn. In 2000, 55 percent of people working downtown (the larger downtown including the Loop, north of the River and adjacent areas to the west and south) commuted by transit. This illustrates the strength of transit for providing access to the largest, most dense downtown areas in contrast to dispersed suburban areas.

Perhaps more telling, the number of jobs and resident workers (the “jobs-housing” balance) in the city of Chicago are converging toward equality. According to American community survey data, there are 1.1 jobs in the city of Chicago for each working resident. This is substantially less, for example, than Washington (2.6), Atlanta (2.0), Boston (1.7), San Francisco (1.4) and Baltimore (1.4).

On the other hand, two of the three large suburban corridors have higher ratios of jobs to workers than the city of Chicago. The Interstate 88 corridor has 1.3 jobs per worker, while the North Shore has approximately 1.5 jobs per worker. The Interstate 90 corridor has slightly more jobs than workers. These data indicate that Chicago is well on the way to a more evenly distributed employment pattern that has become more common around the nation.
http://www.newgeography.com/content/...n-form-chicago
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for the Pelasgians, too, were a Greek nation originally from the Peloponnesus
The Roman Antiquities of Dionysius of Halicarnassus
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...assus/1B*.html

Macedonia, of course, is a part of Greece". Strabo, VII, Frg. 9
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...ragments*.html

But north of the gulf, the first inhabitants are Greeks called Epirotes....
Procopius
http://books.google.com/books?id=9m6...page&q&f=false

Last edited by chicagogeorge; October 2nd, 2011 at 07:28 AM.
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Old October 2nd, 2011, 06:29 AM   #48
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What happens to Austin? And sometimes I really hate including Jacksonville to these lists, factoring the sq. miles of land area for the city. NYC would add millions more likely with the same land area as Jacksonville.
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Old October 2nd, 2011, 07:04 AM   #49
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I think Philly will be 6th or 5th , SEPA and Philly are expected to explode over the next 4 decades.... Chicago will remain in 3rd , Houston will still be in 4th....
SE PA is already built up. Hell some of the smaller towns outside of Philly have higher population per sq mile amounts than Philly itself.
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Old October 2nd, 2011, 07:18 AM   #50
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Jacksonville's city limits are large, but Duval County/the city still pack in a good 900,000 people in a fairly confined amount of land, and the MSA even including the little Baker County to the west is one of the smallest MSA's in the country in size. Not trying to prop it up, but most of the other MSA's are between 4,500 and 7,500 sq. miles and Jacksonville's is about 3,200 with Baker County (would be under 2,000 with just the 3 core counties that account for 95% of the population).


I'm doing an extensive country wide metro study right now analyzing each county in every MSA from 1900 to 2010 and looking at growth and density. It's an extensive project that requires a lot of time/dedication, but what I have found is that most metros have an abundance of counties that add between 10,000 and 70,000 people (aka not very many at all) and 400-600+ sq. mi. apiece. Therefore I am also breaking down metro areas by counties with densities of 250 ppsm and 500 ppsm (not doing 1,000 ppsm because surprisingly for most metro areas that would mean only 1-2 central counties or nothing at all in many cases).

What I'm trying to say is that the city of Jacksonville's city limits are expansive, yes, but not only is most of that still pine forest yet to be developed, the actual county not including all of the water that runs in it (so ~774 sq. mi) is a substantial county as far as population and density. The county is basically the city. If Jacksonville retained its old city limits, it would include only a few hundred thousand tops, but its density would be around to 4,000 ppsm.

Traditionally, FL metros - all of them, are known for sprawl, but each one is on average a lot more compact and dense throughout the metro area than most any other metro area in the country with a few exceptions. Each one covers less than 4,000 sq. mi. and each one is obviously 1.5 million to 5.5 million people, so we're talking substantial urbanized areas in FL.

As an example, Kansas City's metro covers a whopping 7,855 sq. mi. of land and spreads just over 2M people in that area. Its metro density is 259 ppsm whereas the metro density of Jacksonville is 418 ppsm. St. Louis metro density is 353.

There are some anomalies. I am counting the Cleveland CSA as a contiguous metro area rather than just the Cleveland MSA. The reasoning is that it all used to be considered one area, and furthermore the CSA has only 3,611 Sq. mi., which is actually considerably smaller than probably 75-80% of all MSAs in the country. I also count Knoxville's CSA rather than its MSA. Knoxville's CSA packs almost as many people as Birmingham's MSA in a much smaller area, providing for a denser population base.
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Old October 2nd, 2011, 05:00 PM   #51
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In 2009 OKC's estimated population was 560k and when the 2010 Census came out OKC's population was 580k,so is it safe to say that OKC's population is right around 600k now?If OKC's population gains hold steady until 2020,the city's population could be just shy of 800k and around 1 million by 2030?I think the population growth for OKC wont stay as high as it is right now so I say by 2030 OKC wil have 820k in the city and over 2 Million for the metro!
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Old October 2nd, 2011, 07:46 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milquetoast View Post
You misspelled "February".
.
I like Indianapolis actually.
We had a girl who worked in the office move there last year.
I always bug her on Facebook about moving to a farm.
She denies it but please, it's Indianapolis!
.
I'm an Angeleno living in Las Vegas, and neither State of California nor Nevada
is doing well currently, so you're correct there.
I just have a problem with L. A. bashers who start out bashing in their first post.
Where does your jealousy stem from? 'Cause you're not in the competition.
.
Why don't you do yourself a favor and reassess your list,
amend some things there that reveal your age, and start anew

LA Bashers lol give me a break they come from Chicago too. Hence why i say either chicago can knock it off or watch as Mitch Daniels and future governors chip away at Chicago's economy because its at a MAJOR disadvantage due to the massive tax different. I can get the same stuff done in Indiana for less so i would be insane for not moving to Indiana.
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Old October 2nd, 2011, 07:54 PM   #53
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also Chicagogeorge great chart! it explains how Chicago is decentralizing just like Detroit. After Detroit lost most of its population then the metro area declined. So if thats any indication first well see the Chicago city area decline and drop below 2M well Indy contiunes to grow and grow. After Chicago's city population drops below 2M then the metro should start declining too. Look at Detroit
Also Northsider your loud and obnoxious comments are a few of the reasons i HATE chicago and am applauding Mayor Greg Ballard and Mitch Daniels for taking jobs away from Chicago/Illinois.
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Old October 2nd, 2011, 08:25 PM   #54
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I agree that Chicago is decentralizing as are MOST urban areas. Basically there are few if any cities that are seeing most of their population growth within their city limits.


Quote:
Joel Kotkin , a writer who specializes in demographic issues, says that the 2010 census figures show that during the past decade just 8.6 percent of the population growth in metropolitan areas with more than a million people took place in city cores. The rest took place in the suburbs, which are home to more than 6 in 10 Americans.

The 8.6 percent is even lower than in the 1990s when the figure was 15.1 percent. New York City did better than the national average, getting 29 percent of the growth in the metropolitan area, but that was down from 46 percent in the 1990s. Of the 51 metropolitan areas with more than 1 million residents, only three — Boston, Providence, and Oklahoma City — saw their core cities grow faster than their suburbs. And the growth is hardly the mono-dimensional suburbia of hoary stereotype.

In 1970 nearly 95 percent of suburbanites were white, Mr. Kotkin writes. Now minorities constitute over 27 percent of the nation’s suburbanites.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/12/we...w/12burbs.html


There are HUGE differences between Chicago's economy and Detroit's which relied on basically the auto industry. Chicago has a diversified economy. Maybe the most diverse in the US. Lastly, I don't see Chicago's city population slipping below 2 million.


Quote:
Chicago most diverse major U.S. economy. (Commercial).


ACCORDING TO A NEW REPORT BY MOODY'S Investors Service, New York, CMBS: A New Economic Diversity Model for a New Economy, Chicago is the city with the nation's most diverse economy. Applying a new formula in gauging a city's economic diversity, used in analyzing commercial mortgage-backed securities (CMBS) deals, Chicago scored 95.1 out of a possible 100, according to the Moody's report. A score of 100 means the city's economy perfectly matches the components of the national economy.

Little Rock, Arkansas, was in second place with a score only slightly behind Chicago's, and Baltimore was in third place of the top 100 cities for economic diversity with a score of 95.0. The remainder of the top 10 and their scores are: Salt Lake City (94.6); Buffalo, New York (94.5); Nassau-Suffolk Counties, New York (94.5); Columbus, Ohio Nashville, Tennessee (94.1); Atlanta, (94); and Portland, Oregon, and Oakland, California, tied for 10th place with 93.6.

The nation's 10 least-diversified economies (from among the 100 largest cities) are: Wichita, Kansas (16.9); San Jose, California (44.2); Fresno, California (45.7); Norfolk, Virginia (48.1); Colorado Springs, Colorado (55.6); Honolulu, (56.1); Jersey City, New Jersey (56.9); Seattle (58.8); Las Vegas (58.9); and Gary, Indiana (62.1).

The economic diversity scores for other notable major cities are: Houston, in 81st place with a score of 74.4; Los Angeles with 84.7, putting it in 60th position; Miami, with 92.4 in 22nd position; New York with a score of 8o.6, placing it in 69th position; Philadelphia with a 93.5 score, putting it in 12th position; and Washington, D.C., with a score of 62.2, in 90th position. The ranks noted are the rank among the 100 largest cities.

Moody's economic diversity analysis provides investors with a sophisticated measure of diversity in CMBS pools by focusing on the industry breakdown in metropolitan statistical areas (MSAs). But geographic diversity does not equal economic diversity, according to Moody's.

Moody's analysis is designed to assess three dimensions of economic diversity for a pool of loans in a CMBS transaction. The first measure is industry mix, which provides a gauge of the degree of concentration in any particular industry compared with the concentration of that industry in the economy as a whole.

The second component is MSA-level diversity, which quantifies the diversity of individual cities, measured by how closely the combination of industries in a city's employment base matches the profile of the national economy. The third dimension is geographic dispersion, which measures whether a concentration of a particular industry is broadly dispersed among many cities or is highly concentrated and in only a few cities.

Source: http://www.allbusiness.com/personal-...#ixzz1ZeMCmfKO



Quote:
Originally Posted by Downtown Indy View Post
i HATE chicago and am applauding Mayor Greg Ballard and Mitch Daniels for taking jobs away from Chicago/Illinois.
We (Illinois) are giving away our jobs to neighboring states, thanks to our anti business policies.... Indiana and Wisconsin aren't just taking them.
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for the Pelasgians, too, were a Greek nation originally from the Peloponnesus
The Roman Antiquities of Dionysius of Halicarnassus
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...assus/1B*.html

Macedonia, of course, is a part of Greece". Strabo, VII, Frg. 9
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...ragments*.html

But north of the gulf, the first inhabitants are Greeks called Epirotes....
Procopius
http://books.google.com/books?id=9m6...page&q&f=false

Last edited by chicagogeorge; October 2nd, 2011 at 08:52 PM.
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Old October 2nd, 2011, 08:26 PM   #55
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rofl: @ Downtown Indy
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Old October 2nd, 2011, 08:38 PM   #56
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On the subject of GDP growth by metro areas... Chicago could be doing better... Indy is doing just fine. So are some of the metros in the Northeast and in Texas... Out west things look pretty bleak


Quote:




Of the ten largest metropolitan areas, the three with the fastest real GDP growth in 2010 were Boston-Cambridge-Quincy, MA-NH (4.8 percent), New York-Northern New Jersey-Long Island, NY-NJ-PA (4.7 percent), and Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, DC-VA-MD-WV (3.6 percent).2 The ten largest metropolitan areas, accounting for 38 percent of U.S. metropolitan area GDP, averaged 2.5 percent growth in 2010 after falling 2.2 percent in 2009.

Durable-goods manufacturing led the resurgence in U.S. real GDP by metropolitan area in 2010. In Durham-Chapel Hill, NC and Palm Bay-Melbourne-Titusville, FL, the industry contributed more than 3.0 percentage points to each area's overall real GDP growth of 6.6 percent and 4.7 percent, respectively.

Strong contributions from durable-goods manufacturing fueled growth in many small metropolitan areas where production of these goods constitutes a large portion of the area's economy.3 This is especially true in the Great Lakes region where durable-goods manufacturing contributed 11.4 percentage points to growth in Elkhart-Goshen, IN and more than 6.0 percentage points to growth in Columbus, IN and Kokomo, IN. Elkhart-Goshen, IN and Columbus, IN were two of the fastest growing metropolitan areas in 2010, with overall real GDP growth of 13.0 percent and 10.1 percent, respectively.

In 2010, growth in trade (wholesale and retail) positively affected many metropolitan areas. Metropolitan areas in the Plains and Mideast regions were affected most—growth in trade continued in Elmira, NY; Williamsport, PA; Lebanon, PA; and Mankato-North Mankato, MN. Growth in trade was strong in Florence-Muscle Shoals, AL; Cape Girardeau-Jackson, MO-IL; and in Midland, TX, where the trade sector turned sharply upward in 2010. In Elmira, NY and Florence-Muscle Shoals, AL, trade added more than two percentage points to real GDP growth in 2010.

The effects of the growth in financial activities were more widespread than other industries in 2010. In Houma-Bayou Cane-Thibodaux, LA; Des Moines-West Des Moines, IA; Hartford-West Hartford-East Hartford, CT; and New York-Northern New Jersey-Long Island, NY-NJ-PA financial activities contributed more than two percentage points to real GDP growth. All of these metropolitan areas grew faster than the national average.

In contrast to most industries, construction continued to detract from growth in 2010. In Las Vegas-Paradise, NV and Steubenville-Weirton, OH-WV, real GDP contracted due to strong concentrations in the construction industry. In Las Vegas-Paradise, NV, real GDP in the construction industry continued to decline by more than twenty percent and sank below its 2001 level.

Tables 1-3 [XLS] show these results in more detail; complete detail is available on BEA's Web site at www.bea.gov.

Advance Statistics of GDP by Metropolitan Area for 2010 by NAICS Sector

The advance statistics of GDP by metropolitan area for 2010 are based on a more limited set of source data and an abbreviated estimation methodology compared with the standard set of data and the estimation methodology used to prepare the revised statistics for 2007—2009. The advance GDP-by-metropolitan-area statistics are based primarily on preliminary earnings-by-industry data from BEA's regional economic accounts, released August 9, 2011.

More information on the methodology used to produce the advance 2010 statistics, on the revised GDP-by-metropolitan-area statistics for 2007—2009, and on revisions to the GDP-by-metropolitan-area statistics will appear in an article in the October 2011 issue of the Survey of Current Business, BEA's monthly journal.
http://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/regi...ewsrelease.htm

and here are the details by metropolitan area 2009 to 2010
http://www.bea.gov/iTable/drilldown....Rank=0&Drill=1

Quote:
Fips Area 2009 2010
00998 U.S. Metropolitan Portion 12,604,487 13,071,502
10180 Abilene, TX (MSA) 5,276 5,420
10420 Akron, OH (MSA) 26,731 27,586
10500 Albany, GA (MSA) 4,946 4,943
10580 Albany-Schenectady-Troy, NY (MSA) 39,713 41,066
10740 Albuquerque, NM (MSA) 37,262 38,080
10780 Alexandria, LA (MSA) 5,030 5,014
10900 Allentown-Bethlehem-Easton, PA-NJ (MSA) 28,852 29,971
11020 Altoona, PA (MSA) 4,148 4,264
11100 Amarillo, TX (MSA) 9,454 9,700
11180 Ames, IA (MSA) 3,803 3,871
11260 Anchorage, AK (MSA) 25,547 27,038
11300 Anderson, IN (MSA) 3,113 3,255
11340 Anderson, SC (MSA) 4,505 4,806
11460 Ann Arbor, MI (MSA) 17,943 18,566
11500 Anniston-Oxford, AL (MSA) 3,681 3,734
11540 Appleton, WI (MSA) 9,568 10,046
11700 Asheville, NC (MSA) 13,402 13,909
12020 Athens-Clarke County, GA (MSA) 6,211 6,268
12060 Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Marietta, GA (MSA) 266,479 272,362
12100 Atlantic City-Hammonton, NJ (MSA) 12,769 13,132
12220 Auburn-Opelika, AL (MSA) 3,578 3,638
12260 Augusta-Richmond County, GA-SC (MSA) 18,322 19,199
12420 Austin-Round Rock-San Marcos, TX (MSA) 79,905 86,029
12540 Bakersfield-Delano, CA (MSA) 27,799 29,446
12580 Baltimore-Towson, MD (MSA) 139,118 144,789
12620 Bangor, ME (MSA) 5,409 5,518
12700 Barnstable Town, MA (MSA) 8,288 8,461
12940 Baton Rouge, LA (MSA) 38,402 39,400
12980 Battle Creek, MI (MSA) 4,914 5,160
13020 Bay City, MI (MSA) 2,820 2,907
13140 Beaumont-Port Arthur, TX (MSA) 15,709 16,472
13380 Bellingham, WA (MSA) 7,943 8,236
13460 Bend, OR (MSA) 6,100 6,081
13740 Billings, MT (MSA) 6,852 7,071
13780 Binghamton, NY (MSA) 7,986 8,253
13820 Birmingham-Hoover, AL (MSA) 52,670 53,834
13900 Bismarck, ND (MSA) 4,654 4,975
13980 Blacksburg-Christiansburg-Radford, VA (MSA) 5,141 5,285
14020 Bloomington, IN (MSA) 6,360 6,482
14060 Bloomington-Normal, IL (MSA) 9,003 9,413
14260 Boise City-Nampa, ID (MSA) 24,732 25,514
14460 Boston-Cambridge-Quincy, MA-NH (MSA) 297,207 313,690
14500 Boulder, CO (MSA) 17,510 18,298
14540 Bowling Green, KY (MSA) 4,471 4,612
14740 Bremerton-Silverdale, WA (MSA) 8,797 8,860
14860 Bridgeport-Stamford-Norwalk, CT (MSA) 81,340 84,882
15180 Brownsville-Harlingen, TX (MSA) 7,523 7,742
15260 Brunswick, GA (MSA) 3,227 3,175
15380 Buffalo-Niagara Falls, NY (MSA) 43,390 45,150
15500 Burlington, NC (MSA) 4,261 4,413
15540 Burlington-South Burlington, VT (MSA) 10,200 10,731
15940 Canton-Massillon, OH (MSA) 12,507 12,856
15980 Cape Coral-Fort Myers, FL (MSA) 20,128 20,326
16020 Cape Girardeau-Jackson, MO-IL (MSA) 3,289 3,371
16180 Carson City, NV (MSA) 2,803 2,802
16220 Casper, WY (MSA) 6,595 6,805
16300 Cedar Rapids, IA (MSA) 13,537 14,393
16580 Champaign-Urbana, IL (MSA) 8,695 8,869
16620 Charleston, WV (MSA) 14,582 15,375
16700 Charleston-North Charleston-Summerville, SC (MSA) 26,892 27,976
16740 Charlotte-Gastonia-Rock Hill, NC-SC (MSA) 109,882 113,568
16820 Charlottesville, VA (MSA) 9,246 9,478
16860 Chattanooga, TN-GA (MSA) 20,127 21,211
16940 Cheyenne, WY (MSA) 5,114 5,323
16980 Chicago-Joliet-Naperville, IL-IN-WI (MSA) 516,820 532,331
17020 Chico, CA (MSA) 6,182 6,364
17140 Cincinnati-Middletown, OH-KY-IN (MSA) 97,432 100,594
17300 Clarksville, TN-KY (MSA) 9,800 10,392
17420 Cleveland, TN (MSA) 3,448 3,551
17460 Cleveland-Elyria-Mentor, OH (MSA) 102,200 105,625
17660 Coeur d'Alene, ID (MSA) 4,284 4,281
17780 College Station-Bryan, TX (MSA) 6,476 6,712
17820 Colorado Springs, CO (MSA) 25,314 26,461
17860 Columbia, MO (MSA) 6,495 6,796
17900 Columbia, SC (MSA) 31,243 31,967
17980 Columbus, GA-AL (MSA) 11,447 11,877
18020 Columbus, IN (MSA) 3,980 4,421
18140 Columbus, OH (MSA) 90,323 93,353
18580 Corpus Christi, TX (MSA) 15,887 16,565
18700 Corvallis, OR (MSA) 4,196 4,480
18880 Crestview-Fort Walton Beach-Destin, FL (MSA) 9,453 9,482
19060 Cumberland, MD-WV (MSA) 2,558 2,636
19100 Dallas-Fort Worth-Arlington, TX (MSA) 358,765 374,081
19140 Dalton, GA (MSA) 5,196 5,345
19180 Danville, IL (MSA) 2,336 2,381
19260 Danville, VA (MSA) 2,882 2,957
19340 Davenport-Moline-Rock Island, IA-IL (MSA) 16,736 17,530
19380 Dayton, OH (MSA) 32,365 33,371
19460 Decatur, AL (MSA) 4,681 4,882
19500 Decatur, IL (MSA) 5,255 5,439
19660 Deltona-Daytona Beach-Ormond Beach, FL (MSA) 12,013 12,250
19740 Denver-Aurora-Broomfield, CO (MSA) 153,327 157,567
19780 Des Moines-West Des Moines, IA (MSA) 37,813 39,465
19820 Detroit-Warren-Livonia, MI (MSA) 190,840 197,773
20020 Dothan, AL (MSA) 4,501 4,606
20100 Dover, DE (MSA) 5,785 5,833
20220 Dubuque, IA (MSA) 4,142 4,438
20260 Duluth, MN-WI (MSA) 9,225 9,763
20500 Durham-Chapel Hill, NC (MSA) 35,402 37,986
20740 Eau Claire, WI (MSA) 6,010 6,398
20940 El Centro, CA (MSA) 4,576 4,759
21060 Elizabethtown, KY (MSA) 4,519 5,228
21140 Elkhart-Goshen, IN (MSA) 8,348 9,515
21300 Elmira, NY (MSA) 2,680 2,898
21340 El Paso, TX (MSA) 25,886 27,025
21500 Erie, PA (MSA) 9,080 9,428
21660 Eugene-Springfield, OR (MSA) 11,187 11,252
21780 Evansville, IN-KY (MSA) 16,340 17,368
21820 Fairbanks, AK (MSA) 4,898 5,112
22020 Fargo, ND-MN (MSA) 10,507 11,053
22140 Farmington, NM (MSA) 5,293 5,322
22180 Fayetteville, NC (MSA) 16,743 17,654
22220 Fayetteville-Springdale-Rogers, AR-MO (MSA) 17,406 18,249
22380 Flagstaff, AZ (MSA) 4,612 4,683
22420 Flint, MI (MSA) 11,230 11,511
22500 Florence, SC (MSA) 7,010 7,135
22520 Florence-Muscle Shoals, AL (MSA) 3,888 4,111
22540 Fond du Lac, WI (MSA) 3,505 3,762
22660 Fort Collins-Loveland, CO (MSA) 11,154 11,552
22900 Fort Smith, AR-OK (MSA) 9,627 10,185
23060 Fort Wayne, IN (MSA) 17,346 18,422
23420 Fresno, CA (MSA) 29,128 29,515
23460 Gadsden, AL (MSA) 2,559 2,640
23540 Gainesville, FL (MSA) 10,058 10,433
23580 Gainesville, GA (MSA) 6,299 6,443
24020 Glens Falls, NY (MSA) 3,821 3,957
24140 Goldsboro, NC (MSA) 3,869 4,005
24220 Grand Forks, ND-MN (MSA) 3,826 3,943
24300 Grand Junction, CO (MSA) 4,900 4,786
24340 Grand Rapids-Wyoming, MI (MSA) 32,235 33,361
24500 Great Falls, MT (MSA) 2,915 3,035
24540 Greeley, CO (MSA) 7,074 7,341
24580 Green Bay, WI (MSA) 14,955 15,270
24660 Greensboro-High Point, NC (MSA) 33,073 34,652
24780 Greenville, NC (MSA) 6,241 6,568
24860 Greenville-Mauldin-Easley, SC (MSA) 24,921 26,101
25060 Gulfport-Biloxi, MS (MSA) 10,135 10,288
25180 Hagerstown-Martinsburg, MD-WV (MSA) 7,586 7,790
25260 Hanford-Corcoran, CA (MSA) 4,034 4,133
25420 Harrisburg-Carlisle, PA (MSA) 27,948 28,708
25500 Harrisonburg, VA (MSA) 5,921 6,211
25540 Hartford-West Hartford-East Hartford, CT (MSA) 83,562 87,963
25620 Hattiesburg, MS (MSA) 4,698 4,810
25860 Hickory-Lenoir-Morganton, NC (MSA) 11,023 11,405
25980 Hinesville-Fort Stewart, GA (MSA) 3,255 3,562
26100 Holland-Grand Haven, MI (MSA) 8,482 8,997
26180 Honolulu, HI (MSA) 50,033 51,327
26300 Hot Springs, AR (MSA) 2,519 2,566
26380 Houma-Bayou Cane-Thibodaux, LA (MSA) 9,828 10,534
26420 Houston-Sugar Land-Baytown, TX (MSA) 364,218 384,603
26580 Huntington-Ashland, WV-KY-OH (MSA) 10,166 10,882
26620 Huntsville, AL (MSA) 19,782 20,900
26820 Idaho Falls, ID (MSA) 3,831 3,970
26900 Indianapolis-Carmel, IN (MSA) 100,456 105,163
26980 Iowa City, IA (MSA) 7,349 7,550
27060 Ithaca, NY (MSA) 3,873 4,000
27100 Jackson, MI (MSA) 4,776 5,034
27140 Jackson, MS (MSA) 23,711 24,379
27180 Jackson, TN (MSA) 4,409 4,604
27260 Jacksonville, FL (MSA) 58,595 60,303
27340 Jacksonville, NC (MSA) 7,999 8,462
27500 Janesville, WI (MSA) 4,701 4,835
27620 Jefferson City, MO (MSA) 5,792 5,998
27740 Johnson City, TN (MSA) 5,687 5,845
27780 Johnstown, PA (MSA) 3,958 4,092
27860 Jonesboro, AR (MSA) 3,966 4,205
27900 Joplin, MO (MSA) 5,540 5,739
28020 Kalamazoo-Portage, MI (MSA) 11,932 12,162
28100 Kankakee-Bradley, IL (MSA) 3,116 3,150
28140 Kansas City, MO-KS (MSA) 103,529 105,968
28420 Kennewick-Pasco-Richland, WA (MSA) 9,693 10,370
28660 Killeen-Temple-Fort Hood, TX (MSA) 14,957 15,267
28700 Kingsport-Bristol-Bristol, TN-VA (MSA) 9,395 9,755
28740 Kingston, NY (MSA) 4,621 4,755
28940 Knoxville, TN (MSA) 28,441 29,863
29020 Kokomo, IN (MSA) 3,413 3,689
29100 La Crosse, WI-MN (MSA) 5,420 5,701
29140 Lafayette, IN (MSA) 7,710 8,109
29180 Lafayette, LA (MSA) 16,118 18,057
29340 Lake Charles, LA (MSA) 11,288 11,780
29420 Lake Havasu City-Kingman, AZ (MSA) 3,518 3,595
29460 Lakeland-Winter Haven, FL (MSA) 16,470 16,723
29540 Lancaster, PA (MSA) 18,640 19,377
29620 Lansing-East Lansing, MI (MSA) 18,579 19,612
29700 Laredo, TX (MSA) 5,630 5,959
29740 Las Cruces, NM (MSA) 5,510 5,742
29820 Las Vegas-Paradise, NV (MSA) 91,229 89,799
29940 Lawrence, KS (MSA) 3,717 3,755
30020 Lawton, OK (MSA) 4,521 4,891
30140 Lebanon, PA (MSA) 3,493 3,772
30300 Lewiston, ID-WA (MSA) 1,935 2,020
30340 Lewiston-Auburn, ME (MSA) 3,712 3,827
30460 Lexington-Fayette, KY (MSA) 22,211 23,307
30620 Lima, OH (MSA) 4,354 4,591
30700 Lincoln, NE (MSA) 14,094 14,448
30780 Little Rock-North Little Rock-Conway, AR (MSA) 32,644 32,980
30860 Logan, UT-ID (MSA) 3,285 3,458
30980 Longview, TX (MSA) 8,802 9,482
31020 Longview, WA (MSA) 2,863 2,978
31100 Los Angeles-Long Beach-Santa Ana, CA (MSA) 717,176 735,743
31140 Louisville-Jefferson County, KY-IN (MSA) 56,047 58,572
31180 Lubbock, TX (MSA) 9,610 9,955
31340 Lynchburg, VA (MSA) 8,443 8,740
31420 Macon, GA (MSA) 7,472 7,525
31460 Madera-Chowchilla, CA (MSA) 3,596 3,664
31540 Madison, WI (MSA) 34,485 35,615
31700 Manchester-Nashua, NH (MSA) 21,008 20,988
31740 Manhattan, KS (MSA) 5,613 5,989
31860 Mankato-North Mankato, MN (MSA) 3,622 3,801
31900 Mansfield, OH (MSA) 3,565 3,638
32580 McAllen-Edinburg-Mission, TX (MSA) 13,395 13,871
32780 Medford, OR (MSA) 6,159 6,187
32820 Memphis, TN-MS-AR (MSA) 63,266 65,025
32900 Merced, CA (MSA) 5,873 6,115
33100 Miami-Fort Lauderdale-Pompano Beach, FL (MSA) 253,266 257,560
33140 Michigan City-La Porte, IN (MSA) 3,365 3,565
33260 Midland, TX (MSA) 8,730 10,264
33340 Milwaukee-Waukesha-West Allis, WI (MSA) 82,728 84,574
33460 Minneapolis-St. Paul-Bloomington, MN-WI (MSA) 191,191 199,596
33540 Missoula, MT (MSA) 4,573 4,562
33660 Mobile, AL (MSA) 15,222 15,835
33700 Modesto, CA (MSA) 15,055 15,247
33740 Monroe, LA (MSA) 6,242 6,369
33780 Monroe, MI (MSA) 3,564 3,721
33860 Montgomery, AL (MSA) 14,620 14,934
34060 Morgantown, WV (MSA) 5,558 6,043
34100 Morristown, TN (MSA) 3,188 3,382
34580 Mount Vernon-Anacortes, WA (MSA) 5,258 5,469
34620 Muncie, IN (MSA) 3,328 3,364
34740 Muskegon-Norton Shores, MI (MSA) 4,579 4,792
34820 Myrtle Beach-North Myrtle Beach-Conway, SC (MSA) 9,426 9,434
34900 Napa, CA (MSA) 7,149 7,015
34940 Naples-Marco Island, FL (MSA) 12,855 13,148
34980 Nashville-Davidson-Murfreesboro-Franklin, TN (MSA) 76,712 80,898
35300 New Haven-Milford, CT (MSA) 39,523 40,844
35380 New Orleans-Metairie-Kenner, LA (MSA) 66,780 71,476
35620 New York-Northern New Jersey-Long Island, NY-NJ-PA (MSA) 1,214,209 1,280,517
35660 Niles-Benton Harbor, MI (MSA) 5,574 5,790
35840 North Port-Bradenton-Sarasota, FL (MSA) 23,342 23,638
35980 Norwich-New London, CT (MSA) 14,086 14,358
36100 Ocala, FL (MSA) 7,177 7,188
36140 Ocean City, NJ (MSA) 3,893 3,987
36220 Odessa, TX (MSA) 5,429 5,896
36260 Ogden-Clearfield, UT (MSA) 16,629 17,040
36420 Oklahoma City, OK (MSA) 55,838 58,339
36500 Olympia, WA (MSA) 8,833 8,843
36540 Omaha-Council Bluffs, NE-IA (MSA) 46,846 47,556
36740 Orlando-Kissimmee-Sanford, FL (MSA) 101,400 104,107
36780 Oshkosh-Neenah, WI (MSA) 7,437 8,052
36980 Owensboro, KY (MSA) 4,161 4,327
37100 Oxnard-Thousand Oaks-Ventura, CA (MSA) 34,539 35,736
37340 Palm Bay-Melbourne-Titusville, FL (MSA) 18,327 19,274
37380 Palm Coast, FL (MSA) 1,307 1,339
37460 Panama City-Lynn Haven-Panama City Beach, FL (MSA) 6,505 6,751
37620 Parkersburg-Marietta-Vienna, WV-OH (MSA) 5,689 5,831
37700 Pascagoula, MS (MSA) 7,239 7,665
37860 Pensacola-Ferry Pass-Brent, FL (MSA) 13,805 14,160
37900 Peoria, IL (MSA) 17,433 18,278
37980 Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington, PA-NJ-DE-MD (MSA) 335,638 346,932
38060 Phoenix-Mesa-Glendale, AZ (MSA) 188,154 190,601
38220 Pine Bluff, AR (MSA) 3,046 3,186
38300 Pittsburgh, PA (MSA) 109,814 115,752
38340 Pittsfield, MA (MSA) 5,237 5,231
38540 Pocatello, ID (MSA) 2,646 2,712
38860 Portland-South Portland-Biddeford, ME (MSA) 25,029 25,920
38900 Portland-Vancouver-Hillsboro, OR-WA (MSA) 118,775 124,683
38940 Port St. Lucie, FL (MSA) 11,144 11,327
39100 Poughkeepsie-Newburgh-Middletown, NY (MSA) 21,418 22,440
39140 Prescott, AZ (MSA) 4,415 4,452
39300 Providence-New Bedford-Fall River, RI-MA (MSA) 64,217 66,334
39340 Provo-Orem, UT (MSA) 14,448 14,869
39380 Pueblo, CO (MSA) 4,132 4,229
39460 Punta Gorda, FL (MSA) 3,265 3,298
39540 Racine, WI (MSA) 6,495 6,757
39580 Raleigh-Cary, NC (MSA) 54,147 57,278
39660 Rapid City, SD (MSA) 5,060 5,241
39740 Reading, PA (MSA) 14,394 14,876
39820 Redding, CA (MSA) 5,154 5,147
39900 Reno-Sparks, NV (MSA) 20,057 20,172
40060 Richmond, VA (MSA) 62,676 64,321
40140 Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario, CA (MSA) 109,513 109,818
40220 Roanoke, VA (MSA) 13,206 13,304
40340 Rochester, MN (MSA) 8,765 9,457
40380 Rochester, NY (MSA) 43,883 45,742
40420 Rockford, IL (MSA) 11,979 12,521
40580 Rocky Mount, NC (MSA) 5,334 5,465
40660 Rome, GA (MSA) 3,127 3,207
40900 Sacramento-Arden-Arcade-Roseville, CA (MSA) 93,048 92,873
40980 Saginaw-Saginaw Township North, MI (MSA) 6,557 6,884
41060 St. Cloud, MN (MSA) 7,410 7,456
41100 St. George, UT (MSA) 3,379 3,348
41140 St. Joseph, MO-KS (MSA) 4,377 4,497
41180 St. Louis, MO-IL (MSA) 126,287 129,734
41420 Salem, OR (MSA) 12,456 12,488
41500 Salinas, CA (MSA) 17,368 17,777
41540 Salisbury, MD (MSA) 4,105 4,139
41620 Salt Lake City, UT (MSA) 64,556 66,456
41660 San Angelo, TX (MSA) 3,685 3,863
41700 San Antonio-New Braunfels, TX (MSA) 78,143 82,036
41740 San Diego-Carlsbad-San Marcos, CA (MSA) 168,976 171,568
41780 Sandusky, OH (MSA) 2,907 3,124
41860 San Francisco-Oakland-Fremont, CA (MSA) 318,692 325,927
41940 San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara, CA (MSA) 148,697 168,517

42020 San Luis Obispo-Paso Robles, CA (MSA) 10,563 10,662
42060 Santa Barbara-Santa Maria-Goleta, CA (MSA) 19,302 19,623
42100 Santa Cruz-Watsonville, CA (MSA) 9,575 9,697
42140 Santa Fe, NM (MSA) 6,863 6,897
42220 Santa Rosa-Petaluma, CA (MSA) 19,589 19,888
42340 Savannah, GA (MSA) 12,742 12,933
42540 Scranton-Wilkes-Barre, PA (MSA) 18,957 19,697
42660 Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue, WA (MSA) 225,434 231,221
42680 Sebastian-Vero Beach, FL (MSA) 4,252 4,135
43100 Sheboygan, WI (MSA) 4,933 5,130
43300 Sherman-Denison, TX (MSA) 3,287 3,465
43340 Shreveport-Bossier City, LA (MSA) 19,546 22,243
43580 Sioux City, IA-NE-SD (MSA) 6,428 6,734
43620 Sioux Falls, SD (MSA) 15,697 16,232
43780 South Bend-Mishawaka, IN-MI (MSA) 11,764 12,029
43900 Spartanburg, SC (MSA) 10,200 10,673
44060 Spokane, WA (MSA) 17,757 18,090
44100 Springfield, IL (MSA) 9,332 9,681
44140 Springfield, MA (MSA) 22,144 22,619
44180 Springfield, MO (MSA) 14,124 14,316
44220 Springfield, OH (MSA) 3,561 3,628
44300 State College, PA (MSA) 5,736 6,095
44600 Steubenville-Weirton, OH-WV (MSA) 3,544 3,599
44700 Stockton, CA (MSA) 19,572 19,375
44940 Sumter, SC (MSA) 3,024 3,156
45060 Syracuse, NY (MSA) 26,584 27,620
45220 Tallahassee, FL (MSA) 13,152 13,395
45300 Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater, FL (MSA) 111,856 113,702
45460 Terre Haute, IN (MSA) 5,488 5,833
45500 Texarkana, TX-Texarkana, AR (MSA) 4,221 4,362
45780 Toledo, OH (MSA) 25,684 26,605
45820 Topeka, KS (MSA) 9,136 9,371
45940 Trenton-Ewing, NJ (MSA) 25,229 26,680
46060 Tucson, AZ (MSA) 31,923 32,324
46140 Tulsa, OK (MSA) 43,954 44,823
46220 Tuscaloosa, AL (MSA) 8,313 8,859
46340 Tyler, TX (MSA) 8,068 8,461
46540 Utica-Rome, NY (MSA) 8,777 9,138
46660 Valdosta, GA (MSA) 4,136 4,161
46700 Vallejo-Fairfield, CA (MSA) 14,142 13,925
47020 Victoria, TX (MSA) 4,574 4,840
47220 Vineland-Millville-Bridgeton, NJ (MSA) 4,909 4,984
47260 Virginia Beach-Norfolk-Newport News, VA-NC (MSA) 79,396 80,518
47300 Visalia-Porterville, CA (MSA) 10,908 11,349
47380 Waco, TX (MSA) 8,144 8,597
47580 Warner Robins, GA (MSA) 5,310 5,491
47900 Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, DC-VA-MD-WV (MSA) 408,144 425,167
47940 Waterloo-Cedar Falls, IA (MSA) 7,558 7,810
48140 Wausau, WI (MSA) 5,553 5,650
48300 Wenatchee-East Wenatchee, WA (MSA) 3,593 3,653
48540 Wheeling, WV-OH (MSA) 5,154 5,363
48620 Wichita, KS (MSA) 25,896 26,299
48660 Wichita Falls, TX (MSA) 5,581 5,744
48700 Williamsport, PA (MSA) 3,547 3,876
48900 Wilmington, NC (MSA) 13,612 13,976
49020 Winchester, VA-WV (MSA) 4,832 5,069
49180 Winston-Salem, NC (MSA) 21,819 22,590
49340 Worcester, MA (MSA) 27,758 29,233
49420 Yakima, WA (MSA) 7,183 7,291
49620 York-Hanover, PA (MSA) 14,637 15,318
49660 Youngstown-Warren-Boardman, OH-PA (MSA) 15,780 16,613
49700 Yuba City, CA (MSA) 4,640 4,682
49740 Yuma, AZ (MSA) 4,963 5,034
...
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for the Pelasgians, too, were a Greek nation originally from the Peloponnesus
The Roman Antiquities of Dionysius of Halicarnassus
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...assus/1B*.html

Macedonia, of course, is a part of Greece". Strabo, VII, Frg. 9
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...ragments*.html

But north of the gulf, the first inhabitants are Greeks called Epirotes....
Procopius
http://books.google.com/books?id=9m6...page&q&f=false

Last edited by chicagogeorge; October 2nd, 2011 at 08:55 PM.
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Old October 2nd, 2011, 10:04 PM   #57
hudkina
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Originally Posted by Downtown Indy View Post
also Chicagogeorge great chart! it explains how Chicago is decentralizing just like Detroit. After Detroit lost most of its population then the metro area declined.
The Detroit metro area declined only because the city lost 25% of its population. For the first time since the 1970's, the decline in the central city was more than the growth in the suburbs. Even still, all of the counties surrounding Wayne County saw population growth between 2000 and 2010. Even Wayne County sans Detroit and its enclaves of Highland Park and Hamtramck saw population growth between 2000 and 2010.

Detroit and Enclaves: 747,976 - 990,992 -24.52%
Suburban Wayne County: 1,072,608 - 1,070,170 - +0.23%
Oakland County - 1,202,362 - 1,194,156 - +0.69%
Macomb County - 840,978 - 788,149 - 6.70%
Washtenaw County - 344,791 - 322,895 - +6.78%
Livingston County - 180,967 - 156,951 - +15.30%
Monroe County - 152,021 - 145,945 - +4.16%
TOTAL SUBURBAN - 3,793,727 - 3,678,266 - +3.14%

So in total the suburbs added 115,461 people over the decade, though that obviously wasn't enough to counteract the 243,016 people who moved out of the city, causing the metropolitan population as a whole to decline.
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Old October 5th, 2011, 07:35 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by dmoor82 View Post
In 2009 OKC's estimated population was 560k and when the 2010 Census came out OKC's population was 580k,so is it safe to say that OKC's population is right around 600k now?If OKC's population gains hold steady until 2020,the city's population could be just shy of 800k and around 1 million by 2030?I think the population growth for OKC wont stay as high as it is right now so I say by 2030 OKC wil have 820k in the city and over 2 Million for the metro!
No. OKC overperformed the 2009 estimates. There was no way in hell that OKC added more than 20k in one year. OKC will probably reach 600k by 2012 to 2013 or so, and then probably 650k by 2020 and maybe 725k by 2030 if trends keep up. Tulsa will also be around 405k by 2020 and maybe 425k by 2030 if we don't keep shitting up our future (which is the likely outcome).

The OKC CSA metro will probably be 1,500,000 by 2020 and then 1,650,000 by 2030 if growth keeps up. If OKC becomes the next Nashville or Charlotte, then 2,000,000 might be probable. Again, i'd bank on 725k in 2030 and 1,650,000 metro in 2030
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Old October 6th, 2011, 07:32 PM   #59
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Joel Kotkin , a writer who specializes in demographic issues, says that the 2010 census figures show that during the past decade just 8.6 percent of the population growth in metropolitan areas with more than a million people took place in city cores. The rest took place in the suburbs, which are home to more than 6 in 10 Americans.

The 8.6 percent is even lower than in the 1990s when the figure was 15.1 percent. New York City did better than the national average, getting 29 percent of the growth in the metropolitan area, but that was down from 46 percent in the 1990s. Of the 51 metropolitan areas with more than 1 million residents, only three — Boston, Providence, and Oklahoma City — saw their core cities grow faster than their suburbs. And the growth is hardly the mono-dimensional suburbia of hoary stereotype.

In 1970 nearly 95 percent of suburbanites were white, Mr. Kotkin writes. Now minorities constitute over 27 percent of the nation’s suburbanites.
I may point out that Joel Kotkin is a well known anti-urban critic. His has a strong bias against urbanity, and strongly favors car centric sprawl.
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Old October 7th, 2011, 12:44 AM   #60
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While OKC is known as a suburban city,I can tell you first hand as a resident, that OKC has invested heavily in it's core and taken great strides in turning this city into a sustainable city!But in all reality,it will take 2-3 decades of intense core build up in OKC's core to even combat the over bearable sprawl that OKC currently has!
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