York now home for Argonauts and soccer New stadium could be ready for 2006

[Are Be]

Oct. 19, 2004. 06:45 AM
York now home for Argonauts and soccer
New stadium could be ready for 2006
Argo owners believe it's `ultimate site'

JIM BYERS
SPORTS REPORTER

On one corner of Steeles Ave. was a group of York University cheerleaders in bright red uniforms. On another was a small band in Toronto Argonaut blue and team cheerleaders in short skirts wishing for warmer weather.

Inside the York gymnasium, where details of a 25,000-seat stadium for the CFL club and soccer were announced yesterday, were area politicians and a dozen young players who may someday compete for a Major League Soccer team in Toronto.

Three weeks ago there was talk of a downtown stadium that would host the Argos starting in 2006 and stage games in the 2007 world youth soccer championships.

The University of Toronto pulled out, however, and with York now the site, part of Toronto's sporting scene shifts to the 905 region.

"We understand this area," said Argonauts co-owner David Cynamon, a York graduate. "We understand the demographics, we understand the growth. This is the fastest-growing area in Canada.

"We're looking at it from a business perspective, also. This is the future. And when we finally get a subway here, this will be the absolute, ultimate site.

"Right now it's the best site, but then it will be the ultimate site."

The stadium, which could be ready for the Argos in 2006, is projected to cost $70 million. Half will come from government — $27 million from the federal Liberals and $8 million from Queen's Park. York University will pay $15 million, while the Argos will kick in $20 million and pay for any construction overruns, as well as operating deficits.

Cynamon said some people see being at York as something of a stigma compared to fashionable Bloor St. W. downtown.

"We're only three minutes north of the 401," he said. "I think it's an education that will be marketed by us. This isn't way up in the sticks anymore. York University is central, and the easy highway access here is going to make this very viable.

"Even at venues that have different kinds of public transportation, the majority of fans still drive, including (to) the Air Canada Centre. Sixty-five per cent of our current fan base is still north of the 401," he added.

"That doesn't mean we want to neglect those south of the 401.

"I think those (fans) who are disappointed with the location will be very appreciative and very excited when they see the venue we build here."

The Argos plan to play on weekends as much as possible, when students don't occupy much university parking. York's Keele campus has more than 12,000 spaces, although most are a kilometre or two from the proposed stadium.

Argonauts co-owner Howard Sokolowski doesn't know if alcohol will be allowed in parking lots and shied away from using the term "tailgating," but said York is in favour of pre- and post-game "celebrations" and pledged a "total fan experience."

Argos quarterback Damon Allen said the new stadium will be a vast improvement over the monstrous SkyDome, which offers little atmosphere and is usually only half-full for games.

"When you play in a stadium like Montreal and ... it's standing room only, the atmosphere and environment helps with home field advantage, so that's what we're looking for here," Allen said.

CFL commissioner Tom Wright said temporary seating could boost capacity to 40,000 and predicted the Grey Cup game will be back in Toronto "before the end of the decade for sure."

Argo officials expect to have about three dozen private boxes and don't expect any "major inflation" in ticket prices.

TTC and city transportation officials told the Star last week they don't foresee any problems. But Toronto councillor Peter Li Preti yesterday said local ratepayers are already concerned about "tremendous" traffic in the area and that their concerns will have to be addressed.

Paul de Zara, who lives downtown, told Canadian Press he bought season tickets this year because of the proposed downtown location.

"Now with the move to York not only will I not be renewing my tickets but I doubt, given the inconvenience of getting to the new facility, I'll even go to a game as a walkup ticket," he said.

"There are people who told me they're now going to get season tickets because it will be at York University," Sokolowski said.

"I guess if you live down on Bloor St., you would prefer Varsity, but it all comes down to perspective.

"We're thrilled to feel welcome and wanted," he added in a thinly veiled shot at the U of T. "Our feeling is this is the best place to put a football stadium and a soccer stadium."

"It was a very, very tough decision back then and this was neck-and-neck with Varsity (when the U of T project was announced)," said Cynamon. "We can't retrace our footsteps and figure out why we chose one or the other.

"All we know is when Howard and I woke up this morning — separately, of course — we had a great feeling in our stomachs and our hearts that this was the right decision."

WITH FILES FROM STAR WIRE SERVICES

Additional articles by Jim Byers

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[Are Be]

Oct. 19, 2004. 06:51 AM
Soccer 'theatre of dreams'
CSA boss Pipe `ecstatic' about site
Argo owners hoping to land MLS team

JIM BYERS
SPORTS REPORTER

The Argos are getting most of the ink, but soccer teams will likely be the prime users of the new stadium at York University.

The stadium has long been the centrepiece of the Canadian Soccer Association's plans to host the 2007 FIFA world youth championships. But CSA chief Kevan Pipe outlined an ambitious initiative yesterday to bid on the 2010 Women's World Cup and the 2008 Olympic qualifying tournaments, and to stage a Gold Cup, the CONCACAF region championship.

The 25,000-seat stadium also will be home to the Toronto Lynx of soccer's A-League.

But that's not all.

Pipe said Argonaut co-owners Howard Sokolowski and David Cynamon are leading a group that hopes to land a Major League Soccer expansion franchise, an idea endorsed by MLS commissioner Don Garber.

"I'm absolutely ecstatic," Pipe told a news conference yesterday. "This is a world-class facility and it will be the theatre of dreams for Canadian soccer for decades to come."

Pipe said he was thrilled there's no running track around the field — as had been planned for the downtown Varsity site — because it means fans will be less than seven metres from the sidelines.

"They'll be able to take in the game like never before," he said.

The CSA talked two years ago about building a soccer stadium at Exhibition Place. They then joined with the Argos at the proposed Varsity site at the University of Toronto. Now they're at York, but Pipe said the location was never a critical issue.

He also conceded there was a great deal of concern from FIFA, the governing body of world soccer, when the U of T backed out of plans to rebuild Varsity three weeks ago.

"There were some interesting discussions," Pipe said with a smile. "But they're very happy with what we've got here."

The first big soccer event at the new stadium will be the 24-country world youth championships in 2007. A year or two later, Toronto could land a Major League Soccer team.

"We've met regularly with the MLS people, including one meeting very, very recently," Pipe said.

Sokolowski and Cynamon confirmed their interest in owning a team but didn't discuss details, including how they'd pay the hefty $10 million (U.S.) expansion fee.

Garber said yesterday the league will expand from 10 cities to 12 next year and that another round of expansion is set for 2006 or 2007.

"We're very interested in pursuing expansion to Toronto," he said. "We've had preliminary talks and we hope to have more."

MLS operates in several of the biggest U.S. cities, including Los Angeles, New York, Chicago and Washington, D.C.

Additional articles by Jim Byers

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[Are Be]

Oct. 19, 2004. 01:00 AM
All about the kids? Yeah, sure

DAVE PERKINS

It was so cold out there at York University yesterday the politicians had their hands in their own pockets. The cheerleaders at the combined stadium birth announcement and pep rally were shivering and shaking, sometimes involuntarily. They yelled about Y-U. Neither they, nor anyone else, could answer the question, Why here?

The $70 million (so far) football/soccer stadium, seating 25,000, already has been proclaimed a magnificent success, even before the first shovelful has been turned. So they made do with a different kind of shovelful. Everyone involved — the Argonauts, the politicians, the soccer beggars and the tall foreheads at York U — had agreed on the con beforehand and it is this: We're doing it for the kiddies, for the 900,000 minor soccer players across Canada, and for amateur sports in general.

Taxpayers' money to subsidize professional sports? A mere coincidence. This is about the kids.

"I think we're looking at a facility for York University, for the kids in the neighbourhood, for the people of Toronto, for amateur soccer as well as professional soccer. It's a multi-use facility and the Toronto Argonauts are just one of those teams," said Jim Bradley, Ontario tourism minister, who spouted the usual hogwash about financial benefits from visitors to Canada lured by the 2007 world under-20 championships, the timing for which led to the hurry-up aspects of this plan.

Joseph Volpe, federal minister for the GTA, called that soccer tournament — with a straight face — "the third-biggest sporting event in the world, bar none ... just behind the Olympics and men's soccer World Cup."

"Professional sports is coming to the table to make possible the realization of the stadium. But more important (is) the development of amateur sport in soccer. There are 900,000 registered soccer players in the country and we want to give them an opportunity to have access to an international event," Volpe said.

These ears have heard this same old story in this city for 32 years. If soccer were as thriving and healthy as everyone pretends, it would long ago have built its own stadium and reaped all the alleged benefits. Soccer here is a great hobby for kids and a lot of them play it. It all but dies past a certain age and the only interest lies in old country team visits. Pro soccer here has gone broke more often than the TTC.

The York site may work. It may be a disaster. We'll see. The lean here is toward the latter. Those who feel duped into buying season tickets by the promise of a downtown stadium will act accordingly. Those who look at the distance to York and relative lack of easy public transit will stay away, too. Lack of attractive hospitable surroundings — unless you're buying a mattress — also will enter into the discussion.

On the other hand, the driving crowd will enjoy easier parking than at Varsity Stadium. There's also the element of tailgating being introduced and generally nothing succeeds here like a good American institution, right? Traffic in Toronto, hideous and worsening daily, will preclude midweek night games. (It simply won't be possible to get there at a reasonable hour). The Argos say they want the weekend dates anyway. The CFL naturally will acquiesce.

York jumped in after the University of Toronto decided eggheads and pro athletes couldn't mix properly. Business must be good at York these days to have $15 million to kick in to a dubious stadium project. The Argos are fronting $20 million, plus, according to co-owner Howard Sokolowski, all cost overruns, both capital and operating. (It would be nice to see this in writing). Sokolowski agreed the chances of doing this without public money — $27 million from the feds and $8 million from Ontario, both totals allegedly firm — are zero.

"I don't think this is an issue of subsidizing pro sports. David (Cynamon, the other co-owner) and myself are putting in $20 million. The federal and provincial governments are putting in $35 million and their interests have always been amateur sports, to help sports and university development. It was made clear to us from the beginning that the Toronto Argonauts were not very high on the priority (list) and that's okay with us. We think it's a perfect example of private-public funding."

The question whether taxpayers should continue to build stadiums for pro leagues is one that no one wishes to address because it is, of course, not defensible in Toronto. Twenty years ago, the chorus wailed publicly how we needed a domed stadium for a Grey Cup.

Then we got dinged most of $600 million for the SkyDome, which was just fine when the Jays drew 4 million and the Argos were hot in the Gretzky-Candy days. Even that debacle didn't stop our decision makers from doing questionable deals like the Ricoh. And now this one.

You say it's chicken feed, $30 million here and $35 million there? Ask those charged with cutting $45 million from the budget at Sick Childrens Hospital about that money.

Additional articles by Dave Perkins

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[turboskyline]

"Now with the move to York not only will I not be renewing my tickets but I doubt, given the inconvenience of getting to the new facility, I'll even go to a game as a walkup ticket," he said.

What a bunch of whiners....they act like its in another country... When I used to live in Kitchener my dad had seasons tickets to the Jays at the Ex and we drove down weekly to watch them play. People like this aren't even real sports fans...I can understand being misled if you bought seasons tickets thinking it was going to be downtown, but if you won't even bother to see one or two games because its a 40min ttc ride away you are a fucking loser. Thousands of students manage to do it every day. If you can't do it once in a while to support your team you are degenerate piece of shit. In a few years the subway will go to York anyways so the ride time will be 35 mins max.

[You are to blame]

There is also nothing to do after a game in the area so i understand why some don't want to go to games there and then head straight home afterwards. Varsity was the perfect location and many things to do after a game.

[scarbmike]

Well I guess York is just more agressive in expanding than UofT... I wouldn't be surprised in 10 yrs if York became Canada's leading university.

[samsonyuen]

There's still a 10,000 undergrad gap between U of T and York no? Almost 60,000 undergrad vs. 45,000?

I hope Toronto gets a MLS franchise, then Toronto will have a team in every major sport.

[scarbmike]

"There's still a 10,000 undergrad gap between U of T and York no? Almost 60,000 undergrad vs. 45,000?"


York is close to 60 000 now ....I think... Since the double cohort it has been growing by 10-25% every year I read somewhere. Obviously the overall quality of the programs isn't as good as UofT, but they now have several programs which are better (political Science, criminology, psychology, space engineering, kinesiology, Theatre...etc.). York is also agressively expanding its Computer Science program and its top-quality Fine Arts program. It is also building more facilities than UofT. So I give it 10 yrs...

[KGB]

"It is also building more facilities than UofT."


Are you sure? UofT is on a $billion building spree.






KGB

[skyscraper17]

York University? Not a very smart idea! The area is where many of most congested streets along with snarling Highway 400 & 401. Bad Public transportation. ...Stupid.

[KGB]

It seems awfully strange that the Varsity Stadium site was given up on so damn quickly and the replacement picked so quickly.

Especially since the Varsity location was just so much more superior...being right downtown with such easy access would guarantee the best possible scenario for attendance. And isn't the long-term situation what's important?

I mean, if U of T was having second thoughts regarding the costs, why didn't they make more of an effort to make it work? Surley something could have been done to snag this absolutely best location anyone could hope for. Make a deal with a developer to build a condo building or something on the site?

This was dropped too damn quickly if you ask me.

Not to knock York...fine school, and deserves great facilities as much as anybody...but com'on...don't the Argos need every advantage they can get to increase attendance? Expecting people to head out to the wilds of Steeles Ave on shitty buses is not the best way to go about it.






KGB

[scarbmike]

Yup York location is not so good...

"Are you sure? UofT is on a $billion building spree."

You can't even compare UofT's construction list to York's spree. York just has way too much space on its hands. In fact this year York is building more buildings on its campus than UofT has built on all three campus' in the past 3 yrs (Accolades project, Pond Road Residence, Schulich research center, Schulich residence). Also they just finshed building the transportations building, Engineering facility, Computer Science buiding, TEL, and a new student services facility.

[salvius]

Frankly, it's a good thing to revive the area which is an semi-urban wasteland currently. All we need is transport to get there.

[DanfromTO]

The argos have increased their average attendance by almost 10,000 since last year, and i believe that their plain is to increase demand by decreasing the # of seats, this is a perfectly good idea, if your stadium location is somewhere that people want to go. Even with a brand new stadium, and decreased seating, i doubt more people would go to see the argos. I am huge fan of the argos, and currently i go to about 4 games a year, but that deffinatly would not happen if they moved to a staduim not on the subway line. Im sure all teenaged fans feel the same way.
Obviously i will still go to games, but i dont think it will be as frequently because of the inconvience of public transportation to York U.
Also, i cant drive now, but i will be able to in 2006, but the Argos will still loose attendance from kids who dont have their liscence and who are too damn lazy to take a couple transfers to get to the new stadium.
Also, IMO, the fact that the new staduim is father away from downtown decreases the teams' connection to the community.

To sum it all up:
UofT : Good
York : Bad

(location, not school)

[KGB]

"You can't even compare UofT's construction list to York's spree."

What????

I mean, York is growing...but to say it somehow is in a different league of U of T seems absurd. I'm not so up on everything being built at York, but I don't see how it can top UofT's capital projects.

Here's a list of projects just for the downtown campus.....


The Terrence Donnelly Centre for Cellular and Biomolecular Research
$105 million
221,120 square feet,
Behnisch, Behnisch & Partner / architects Alliance


The Leslie L. Dan Pharmacy Building
$75 million
167,000 square feet
Foster and Partners


The Bahen Centre for Information Technology
$111 million
215,000 square feet
Diamond & Schmitt Architects Incorporated


The John and Edna Davenport Chemical Research Building
$26 million
110,000 square feet
Diamond & Schmitt Architects Incorporated


Botany Greenhouses
$6 million
13,000 square feet
Barry Brian and Associates


The Morrison Pavilion
$15 million
54,000 square feet
Diamond & Schmitt Architects Incorporated


Sidney Smith Infill Project
$6.7 million
14,150 square feet



Department of Economics
$14.3 million
41,000 square feet
Hariri Pontarini Architects


Joseph L. Rotman School of Management Building Expansion
$4 million
9,500 sq. ft
Zeidler Partnership Architects


School of Continuing Studies
$7 million
19,000 square feet
Moriyama and Teshima Architects


Isabel Bader Theatre
$7 million
Peter Smith of Lett/Smith Architects


New College Residence
$27 million
118,000 square feet
saucier + perrotte architectes inc.


Woodsworth College Residence
$32 million
181,000 square feet
architects Alliance


Morrison Hall
$28 million
101,745 square feet
Zeidler Partnership Architects


Early Learning Centre
$5 million
13,450 square feet
Teeple Architects Inc.


UofT has also aquired a number of existing buildings...one of the advantages of being right downtown...


Centre for Function and Well-Being
$12 million
73,000 square feet
Core Architects Inc.


Medical Arts Building
$14 million
10 storey office building built in 1929
Architect: Ferdinand Marani, U of T alumnus 1914


Board of Education Building
$17 million
7 storey office building
Page & Steele Architects 1961


89 Chestnut Residence (former Colony Hotel)
$72 million
27 storey, 721 room hotel with meeting, dining and conference facilities


Then there are the "affiliated" facilites projects like the hospitals and MARS District stuff.

Then there is the massive campus landscaping project called Open Spaces






Now come on...is it really fair to conclude that U of T "can't even compare" ???






KGB

[scarbmike]

"I mean, York is growing...but to say it somehow is in a different league of U of T seems absurd. I'm not so up on everything being built at York, but I don't see how it can top UofT's capital projects."


Yeah your right they're not in different leagues, but UofT is definitaly not expanding faster than York. The list of building I provided are only those that have been constructed from scratch, not including expansions, acquisitions or renovations. The amount of money York might be spending is less than UofT, but that's because it's easier to build at York, in the open suburban wasteland than in downtown. More than half of York's building have been built in the last 5 yrs. In addition the rate of enrolment at York is growing much faster than UofT. The facilities York is building are far bigger and more "stadalone" than any UofT project except the Innis residence and the Student Centre at UTSC.

They're not in different leagues, that was an exageration. However many people who traditionally look upon York as a non-starter for quality University education must take a second look. It is certanly giving UofT more than enough competition and in my view is quickly surpassing them in many subject areas.

[salvius]

^ I think not that many people look at York as a non-starter. I think most people (and rightfully so) balk at its location and its concrete slabs. That university needs a subway extension BAD.

[KGB]

"The amount of money York might be spending is less than UofT, but that's because it's easier to build at York"


Sorry...I don't buy that excuse at all....they both own the land, and construction costs are no different based on the location.

This isn't a pissing match...I think York is a great new university. But pretending it's going to somehow outrank a 170 year old institution like Uof T in either size, quality, built form...is really a bit of boosterism. And that Keele campus will NEVER be UofT's downtown campus.






"York is close to 60 000 now"


That sounds a bit odd....York's president lists total enrollment last year at under 50,000...do you really think it has expanded by over 10,000 students in just one year??






"More than half of York's building have been built in the last 5 yrs."


Are you sure? According to "A Strategic Plan for York University
Progress Report" to the Board of Governors as presented to the York University Board of Governors, October 1, 2004...

the existing total built form of the Keele campus in 98/99 was just over 5 million sqft. The total sqft by the end of 06/07 will be 7.5 million sqft (and a large chunk of that construction is parking garages LOL ).

That's a 43% increase in 8 years...not the over 100% in 5 years as you seem to think.

The total built form of the entire downtown campus of UofT is considerably larger than that....don't have the figures off hand.






KGB

[scarbmike]

I meant york is outranking UofT in key areas. 40 years ago UofT was unchallenged in the University field. York is easily the best school for Arts/Fina Arts now and Ryerson has a set of unique programs. Most of York's recent construction has not been parking garages. Only 2 have been built and both of them, the student affairs building and the transportation services facility are combined with other purposes. UofT must resort to regularly expanding its buildings/ acquisitions due to tight space constraints. York can simply build on blank slates of land, making construction significantly cheaper.

The enrolment stats:

U of T : 43 000 full time students (all three campuses)
York: 36 000 fulltime (Keele) -- 2500 full time (Glendon)
Ryerson: 12 000 full time

U of T has more part time students than York... but less than Ryerson (I don't exactly remember the numbers). Since UofT has more part time students it is often mistaken as a MUCH bigger university than York. Finally York grew by 25% in enrolment due to the double cohort (I think this was the most of all Ontario Universities).

Obviously UofT maintains its prestige in Engineering and Medical Sciences (to suggest that York holds that title is laughable). But York is gaining in key areas. In addition while its campus is certainly not very pretty, it is certainly in the midst of a booming area (sprawling rather...lol). The diversity of the York student body is exceptional and it represents a more accurate impression of mainstream Canadian society.

Both UofT and York have their ups and downs. But York is now easily one of Canada's great urban universities, and this is a title it obtained in just 40 yrs. It's really hard for some people to see this, because the university has changed so much in the past 5-8 yrs. really you have to be a York student or have friends at York to understand the level of change in that institution.

[salvius]

^ I don't know about it being the king of Arts, although obviously it can't really be touched in Fine Arts by UofT. I think York has more potential than anything else (obviously, there are many areas where the school is the place to be in right now) and it really would help it a lot to have a subway link to it.