Seattle area: NBA/NHL arena - Page 7

LCIII · October 11th, 2011, 04:44 PM

Even if just want to compare the sports relatively- baseball is doing terribly in Seattle and Soccer is doing better in Seattle than anywhere else in the country by a significant margin.

Sounder · October 11th, 2011, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LCIII

Even if just want to compare the sports relatively- baseball is doing terribly in Seattle and Soccer is doing better in Seattle than anywhere else in the country by a significant margin.

And 10 years ago the Mariners were leading MLB in attendance.

Back in the late 70's the Sonics attendance was significantly higher than any other team.

Seattle is a great sports city that is intolerant of mediocrity. The Mariners would still be selling 35,000 seats a game if they were run by a group committed to winning. I would love one of the minority owners step up and buy the sucker from the Lincoln's Loveable Losers crew.

LCIII · October 11th, 2011, 10:13 PM

That's definitely a part of it. It's an oversimplification to imply that's the only reason the Sounders attendance is so high but yes Rhys definitely a part of it.

bgwah · October 12th, 2011, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bgwah

Don't some spaces double as arena and convention spaces? I seem to remember the Washington State Convention Center wanting to expand.

I looked around and it appears some cities indeed do this.

Does anyone think it would be possible to combine a new arena with a convention center expansion? The Convention Place Station's block is larger than the Key Arena.

mhays · October 12th, 2011, 06:13 AM

You'd need 2x2 blocks. While the Key Arena roof would fit (barely it looks like) on a 2x1 large block site (360x560), that's without the roof "stake lines" as well as the plazas, retail, and other stuff that it currently has. More importantly, the point of a new arena would be to do something much larger. It would need to be 2x2 large blocks (780x560' give or take, like its current four-block setup with side buildings), or at least 2x2 small ones (540x560').

The Seattle Center is perfect. Memorial Stadium would be big enough to cram in an arena (400' north-south). The area has plenty of parking. It would work way better once Aurora is more crossable of course due to Mercer and DBT. An arena would be better suited for that side of the Center. Of course that's unlikely for a variety of reasons.

Going elsewhere in Greater Downtown seems unlikely too. No superblocks left except the Port. I'd had to see a new four-block superblock, particularly anywhere near the CBD proper. Superblocks are bad m-kay (channeling..you know, that guy?), and arenas are dead spaces most of the time. Plus adding a convention center expansion...now you're talking six city blocks.

Convention centers aren't terribly good for arenas. It would have to be overly large to keep one type of event from precluding simultaneous dual use. A convention operation that had to avoid game days would have a severe disadvantage. Of course game days are set much later than most conventions, and the leagues would have some flexibility a year out, but with two at the same time of the year it would need to be ok to have two things at once. That means many of the efficiencies of co-locating would go away, because you'd still need two sets of many things. Convention centers exist to sell hotel rooms. Arenas exist to attract teams. Those are competing interests.

Cities that co-locate these things generally have massive sites that we don't have, and/or they choose not to preserve the street grid. Either way, not very good urbanity.

Now an exhibition hall is very different. Those are primarily for locally-focused stuff like boat shows. They don't need many hotel rooms, and they're used less often. It's easy to have that stuff not get in the way of team schedules. That's a common thing to put next to a dome or arena, because boat shows love spaces like that.

I expect an vacant six-block section of my downtown to be full of millions of square feet of commercial, residential, and institutional space a decade from now. If it's just event space that's quite a waste!

How about someone brings in the NBA (ok, NHL too if we're adding unwatchable stuff too) and expands Key Arena to make it work. And lets build the convention center expansion as planned. Done.

LCIII · October 12th, 2011, 07:20 AM

"How about someone brings in the NBA (ok, NHL too if we're adding unwatchable stuff too) and expands Key Arena to make it work. And lets build the convention center expansion as planned. Done."

If we can't have it on the Pier/Port space then I vote for this. Just tear down Key Arena and replace it with a world class arena. NBA basketball is the unwatchable of the 2 sports but a proper NBA and NHL facility needs to be in Seattle- not Bellevue or any other surrounding space and DEFINITELY not Tacoma.

BoulderGrad · October 12th, 2011, 08:20 AM

I've been working on mhays for a couple years on hockey

.

+1 more for having it at the key arena site. Something filling the whole area bounded by 1st and 2nd ave, and Republican to Thomas. Main entrances facing the fountain, and First Ave like currently, but perhaps closer to 1st ave this time. Growing up in DC, I've always thought the MCI Center (now Verizon Center) was an awesome fit for the city. It just sortof pops up walking around China Town. A streetscape like this: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=washin...,5.06,,0,-8.31 Would be friggin sweet. After the arena gets built, we'd just need to build up the parking lots across the street.

edit, even better: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=washin...,,0,-2.07&z=19

bgwah · October 12th, 2011, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mhays

You'd need 2x2 blocks. While the Key Arena roof would fit (barely it looks like) on a 2x1 large block site (360x560), that's without the roof "stake lines" as well as the plazas, retail, and other stuff that it currently has. More importantly, the point of a new arena would be to do something much larger. It would need to be 2x2 large blocks (780x560' give or take, like its current four-block setup with side buildings), or at least 2x2 small ones (540x560').

The Seattle Center is perfect. Memorial Stadium would be big enough to cram in an arena (400' north-south). The area has plenty of parking. It would work way better once Aurora is more crossable of course due to Mercer and DBT. An arena would be better suited for that side of the Center. Of course that's unlikely for a variety of reasons.

Going elsewhere in Greater Downtown seems unlikely too. No superblocks left except the Port. I'd had to see a new four-block superblock, particularly anywhere near the CBD proper. Superblocks are bad m-kay (channeling..you know, that guy?), and arenas are dead spaces most of the time. Plus adding a convention center expansion...now you're talking six city blocks.

Convention centers aren't terribly good for arenas. It would have to be overly large to keep one type of event from precluding simultaneous dual use. A convention operation that had to avoid game days would have a severe disadvantage. Of course game days are set much later than most conventions, and the leagues would have some flexibility a year out, but with two at the same time of the year it would need to be ok to have two things at once. That means many of the efficiencies of co-locating would go away, because you'd still need two sets of many things. Convention centers exist to sell hotel rooms. Arenas exist to attract teams. Those are competing interests.

Cities that co-locate these things generally have massive sites that we don't have, and/or they choose not to preserve the street grid. Either way, not very good urbanity.

Yeah, I suppose it wouldn't fit.

Bmac · October 12th, 2011, 06:35 PM

dont forget about the King County bus barn area off 6th near Safeco. I recall that plot being a candidate a few years back.

LCIII · October 12th, 2011, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bmac

dont forget about the King County bus barn area off 6th near Safeco. I recall that plot being a candidate a few years back.

Dont the Sounder trains park there as well? I don't see them agreeing to reroute everything for a stadium unless there was literally zero other places it could go. And that's coming from someone who wants it down in the stadium district.

Edit: the Sounder trains are parked off to the west of the space you mentioned. Still, where would they transfer the bus base to? It has to be somewhere downtown and I think moving that for a new arena just gives them a new problem instead of just solving one.

mhays · October 12th, 2011, 11:08 PM

The bus barn next to Safeco is way too small. Looking at an aerial, the site next to Airport Way S might be ok...but an odd location for an arena.

krudmonk · October 13th, 2011, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mhays

How about someone brings in the NBA (ok, NHL too if we're adding unwatchable stuff too) and expands Key Arena to make it work.

They can build it at the corner of Opposite and Bizarro, where the NBA is more entertaining than the NHL.

LCIII · October 13th, 2011, 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mhays

The bus barn next to Safeco is way too small. Looking at an aerial, the site next to Airport Way S might be ok...but an odd location for an arena.

I would be on board for that! It's close enough to the other facilities for my liking. I'm sure they could come up with a design for the whole project that would work in that space.

Bmac · October 13th, 2011, 07:51 PM

the bus area i was referring to was the Airport st boundary west to 6th, there was talk of David Sabey transferring his land in exchange for this plot. Sabey owns that Associated Grocer plot off Boeing Access RD.Buses would move there.

LCIII · October 13th, 2011, 10:24 PM

Thanks for the info.

Interesting idea for sure. How long ago did they build the metro offices and whatnot that are currently on that land? By look of them not that long ago. I can't imagine a lot of people would be thrilled about any sort of tax payer money going towards redoing that AND building an arena, even if it does bring back NBA and NHL.

Minna · October 15th, 2011, 02:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pwalker

Agreed, but we need to enhance our major league status. This is important not only for city pride, but for revenue.

Seattle without the NBA and NHL will survive, but Seattle with the NBA and NHL will be better. Let's do eveything possible to make that happen. This will make Seattle a better city, not only in prestige, but with revenue. There is no doubt about this.

Increase revenue from taxpayer-funded sport facilities and sweetheart deals? How is spending $400-some million from taxpayer money on an arena going to bring in that kind of revenue? That that money would be better spent towards real economic goals. I'm all for it if teams are community-owned, but it's a joke how municipalities seem to roll out the taxpayer funds to billionaires for sports teams to play in their cities for 8-to-90 days a year.

Focus on creating an entrepreneurial-friendly culture to build a real economic driver, like the next Microsoft, Starbucks, or Amazon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sounder

So is public art and most mass transit.

I want my Sonics back. The funding proposal (read article in post #1 of this thread please) is totally reasonable as the general public pays ZERO percent. How is that a racket?

Mass transit? You're using that comparsion?

Bmac · October 15th, 2011, 09:22 AM

"Increase revenue from taxpayer-funded sport facilities and sweetheart deals? How is spending $400-some million from taxpayer money on an arena going to bring in that kind of revenue? That that money would be better spent towards real economic goals. I'm all for it if teams are community-owned, but it's a joke how municipalities seem to roll out the taxpayer funds to billionaires for sports teams to play in their cities for 8-to-90 days a year."

Thats exactly why they shouldnt pay for it all!!!!! only using it for 8-90 days a year, concerts, other venue events use it the remainder of the time

"Focus on creating an entrepreneurial-friendly culture to build a real economic driver, like the next Microsoft, Starbucks, or Amazon."

id be willing to bet those three companys recd tax payer money in the form of B&O tax breaks totaling 400 million , how is it any different? they are private businesses too . waiting.......

BoulderGrad · October 15th, 2011, 10:46 AM

No arguing against the point, but just wanted to say that an indoor arena would see a lot more than 90 days a year worth of use. MSG in New York has over 365 events a year.

mhays · October 16th, 2011, 02:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoulderGrad

No arguing against the point, but just wanted to say that an indoor arena would see a lot more than 90 days a year worth of use. MSG in New York has over 365 events a year.

I'd guess that a fair number of those are smaller events, like parties in side rooms.

Either way, why would a Seattle arena get a ton of events? Unless Key Arena goes away, with a new facility we'd have a glut.

Sounder · October 16th, 2011, 08:20 PM

The proposed financing scheme (see post #1 of this thread) will take $140,000,000 from professional athletes, $10,000,000 from fans, and the remainder will have to come from the owners, developers, and possibly local municipalities. A Seattle Center arena for example would almost surely include some financing from the city of Seattle.

The amount of tax payer financing so far is nil. That's a great investment. If Seattle, Renton, and Bellevue get into a mini bidding war for it, great, if not, we will have a nice, tax payer free arena in the suburbs when it is all said and done.

October 12th, 2011, 08:20 AM	#127
BoulderGrad Registered User Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 3,357 Likes (Received): 39	I've been working on mhays for a couple years on hockey . +1 more for having it at the key arena site. Something filling the whole area bounded by 1st and 2nd ave, and Republican to Thomas. Main entrances facing the fountain, and First Ave like currently, but perhaps closer to 1st ave this time. Growing up in DC, I've always thought the MCI Center (now Verizon Center) was an awesome fit for the city. It just sortof pops up walking around China Town. A streetscape like this: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=washin...,5.06,,0,-8.31 Would be friggin sweet. After the arena gets built, we'd just need to build up the parking lots across the street. edit, even better: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=washin...,,0,-2.07&z=19 __________________ My shrink once said to me: "Maybe life isn't for everyone..."

October 15th, 2011, 10:46 AM	#138
BoulderGrad Registered User Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 3,357 Likes (Received): 39	No arguing against the point, but just wanted to say that an indoor arena would see a lot more than 90 days a year worth of use. MSG in New York has over 365 events a year. __________________ My shrink once said to me: "Maybe life isn't for everyone..."

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October 11th, 2011, 04:44 PM	#121
LCIII Registered User Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 2,847 Likes (Received): 59	Even if just want to compare the sports relatively- baseball is doing terribly in Seattle and Soccer is doing better in Seattle than anywhere else in the country by a significant margin.

October 11th, 2011, 10:13 PM	#123
LCIII Registered User Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 2,847 Likes (Received): 59	That's definitely a part of it. It's an oversimplification to imply that's the only reason the Sounders attendance is so high but yes Rhys definitely a part of it.

October 12th, 2011, 06:13 AM	#125
mhays Journeyman Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Seattle Posts: 8,339 Likes (Received): 115	You'd need 2x2 blocks. While the Key Arena roof would fit (barely it looks like) on a 2x1 large block site (360x560), that's without the roof "stake lines" as well as the plazas, retail, and other stuff that it currently has. More importantly, the point of a new arena would be to do something much larger. It would need to be 2x2 large blocks (780x560' give or take, like its current four-block setup with side buildings), or at least 2x2 small ones (540x560'). The Seattle Center is perfect. Memorial Stadium would be big enough to cram in an arena (400' north-south). The area has plenty of parking. It would work way better once Aurora is more crossable of course due to Mercer and DBT. An arena would be better suited for that side of the Center. Of course that's unlikely for a variety of reasons. Going elsewhere in Greater Downtown seems unlikely too. No superblocks left except the Port. I'd had to see a new four-block superblock, particularly anywhere near the CBD proper. Superblocks are bad m-kay (channeling..you know, that guy?), and arenas are dead spaces most of the time. Plus adding a convention center expansion...now you're talking six city blocks. Convention centers aren't terribly good for arenas. It would have to be overly large to keep one type of event from precluding simultaneous dual use. A convention operation that had to avoid game days would have a severe disadvantage. Of course game days are set much later than most conventions, and the leagues would have some flexibility a year out, but with two at the same time of the year it would need to be ok to have two things at once. That means many of the efficiencies of co-locating would go away, because you'd still need two sets of many things. Convention centers exist to sell hotel rooms. Arenas exist to attract teams. Those are competing interests. Cities that co-locate these things generally have massive sites that we don't have, and/or they choose not to preserve the street grid. Either way, not very good urbanity. Now an exhibition hall is very different. Those are primarily for locally-focused stuff like boat shows. They don't need many hotel rooms, and they're used less often. It's easy to have that stuff not get in the way of team schedules. That's a common thing to put next to a dome or arena, because boat shows love spaces like that. I expect an vacant six-block section of my downtown to be full of millions of square feet of commercial, residential, and institutional space a decade from now. If it's just event space that's quite a waste! How about someone brings in the NBA (ok, NHL too if we're adding unwatchable stuff too) and expands Key Arena to make it work. And lets build the convention center expansion as planned. Done.

October 12th, 2011, 07:20 AM	#126
LCIII Registered User Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 2,847 Likes (Received): 59	"How about someone brings in the NBA (ok, NHL too if we're adding unwatchable stuff too) and expands Key Arena to make it work. And lets build the convention center expansion as planned. Done." If we can't have it on the Pier/Port space then I vote for this. Just tear down Key Arena and replace it with a world class arena. NBA basketball is the unwatchable of the 2 sports but a proper NBA and NHL facility needs to be in Seattle- not Bellevue or any other surrounding space and DEFINITELY not Tacoma.

October 12th, 2011, 06:35 PM	#129
Bmac Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Seattle Posts: 46 Likes (Received): 0	dont forget about the King County bus barn area off 6th near Safeco. I recall that plot being a candidate a few years back.

October 12th, 2011, 11:08 PM	#131
mhays Journeyman Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Seattle Posts: 8,339 Likes (Received): 115	The bus barn next to Safeco is way too small. Looking at an aerial, the site next to Airport Way S might be ok...but an odd location for an arena.

October 13th, 2011, 07:51 PM	#134
Bmac Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Seattle Posts: 46 Likes (Received): 0	the bus area i was referring to was the Airport st boundary west to 6th, there was talk of David Sabey transferring his land in exchange for this plot. Sabey owns that Associated Grocer plot off Boeing Access RD.Buses would move there.

October 13th, 2011, 10:24 PM	#135
LCIII Registered User Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 2,847 Likes (Received): 59	Thanks for the info. Interesting idea for sure. How long ago did they build the metro offices and whatnot that are currently on that land? By look of them not that long ago. I can't imagine a lot of people would be thrilled about any sort of tax payer money going towards redoing that AND building an arena, even if it does bring back NBA and NHL.

October 15th, 2011, 09:22 AM	#137
Bmac Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Seattle Posts: 46 Likes (Received): 0	"Increase revenue from taxpayer-funded sport facilities and sweetheart deals? How is spending $400-some million from taxpayer money on an arena going to bring in that kind of revenue? That that money would be better spent towards real economic goals. I'm all for it if teams are community-owned, but it's a joke how municipalities seem to roll out the taxpayer funds to billionaires for sports teams to play in their cities for 8-to-90 days a year." Thats exactly why they shouldnt pay for it all!!!!! only using it for 8-90 days a year, concerts, other venue events use it the remainder of the time "Focus on creating an entrepreneurial-friendly culture to build a real economic driver, like the next Microsoft, Starbucks, or Amazon." id be willing to bet those three companys recd tax payer money in the form of B&O tax breaks totaling 400 million , how is it any different? they are private businesses too . waiting.......

October 16th, 2011, 08:20 PM	#140
Sounder Registered User Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 1,116 Likes (Received): 0	The proposed financing scheme (see post #1 of this thread) will take $140,000,000 from professional athletes, $10,000,000 from fans, and the remainder will have to come from the owners, developers, and possibly local municipalities. A Seattle Center arena for example would almost surely include some financing from the city of Seattle. The amount of tax payer financing so far is nil. That's a great investment. If Seattle, Renton, and Bellevue get into a mini bidding war for it, great, if not, we will have a nice, tax payer free arena in the suburbs when it is all said and done.