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Old October 13th, 2011, 06:12 AM   #21
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Elsinore (Helsingor/Helsingbörg) would be a better way of relieving Oresund congestion. I still doubt that København has Englewood-level rail congestion. The Oresund itself is narrow enough to handle at least two more fixed links, if need be.

What really worries me as a potential source of congestion is that by c. 2030 there'll be four major freight routes leading into København: via the Great Belt, the Fehmarn Belt, the Oresund Bridge, and the Helsingor fixed link (tunnel?). These paths will most likely all meet and cross one another west of København, which would be the pinch point between the Scandinavian and continental European rail networks. In other woods...an Englewood. And once you've got an Englewood-type snarl, then a completely new bypass of Zeeland becomes feasible. In other words, the proposal at hand would not be feasible until 2030 at the earliest (most likely 2050).

Coccodrillo--I would suggest that a potential Stockhom-Turku link (via Aland, I'd hope) would terminate in the port of Turku. There would be relatively little economic justification to extend standard gauge further. Similarly, I've suggested that Rail Baltica initially terminate in the Port of Tallinn and be extended later the Port of Helsinki (first via standard-gauge ro-ro ferries, and later via a fixed link).

Once you have standard-gauge railheads in Turku and Helsinki, then a connection between the two becomes feasible.
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Old October 14th, 2011, 12:50 AM   #22
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Helsingor/Helsingborg in combination with Gedser/Rostock indeed appears to me as a more plausible alternative than this tunnel once the Oresund-Fehmarnbelt route should be clogged. Copenhagen would become the regional hub for both passenger and freight traffic.
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Old October 14th, 2011, 01:09 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by cal-1 View Post
- investors: state of Norway and some companies
State of Norway? Has he asked the other norwegians first?

The Norwegian state needs to invest in norwegian rail projects at this point first and foremost.
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Old October 14th, 2011, 02:56 PM   #24
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Exactly, focus on our own infrastructure.
Then maybe we can help others.
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Old October 14th, 2011, 06:19 PM   #25
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Great idea. First we need to rebuild the line Oslo-Göteborg. Straighten it out will save traveltime.

If the chunnel and the seikan tunnel can be built, it will also be possible to build a tunnel here. The shortest distance Sweden-Rugen is shorter than 10km. About 83km to the northernmost point of Rugen. Scandinavia needs a direct tunnel to continental europe, especially for freight purposes. I don't think this will happen during my lifetime though.
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Old October 15th, 2011, 01:41 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
Helsingor/Helsingborg in combination with Gedser/Rostock indeed appears to me as a more plausible alternative than this tunnel once the Oresund-Fehmarnbelt route should be clogged. Copenhagen would become the regional hub for both passenger and freight traffic.
A sea crossing at Helsingør has no use for freight traffic as all rail lines from northern Sjælland lead straight into central København where rail capacities are very limited and almost entirely occupied by passenger services.

This proposed rail tunnel might be highly ambitious and its realisation extremely uncertain. But the plan is not as ridiculous as many think. This rail line would add new rail capacities between Scandinavia and continental Europe. It would not only bypass the bottleneck that København and Sjælland is but also Hamburg. At the moment all transit corridors whether road or rail through Denmark head straight into Hamburg with it already clogged network.
The route to Stralsund, however, would be connect to three different routes which would take traffic from the tunnel further south. These route through east Germany have spare capacities unlike mainlines in west Germany.

And then there is something else. Denmark is a 25V island between Scandinavia and Germany. A direct rail connection between Sweden and Germany would make it possible to haul trains with a single voltage engine from Narvik to Villach.
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Old October 15th, 2011, 03:22 AM   #27
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To the original thread starter, please post in the thread finder to make my archiving job easier as I don't like having to sort through new posts manually to add them to the index. Thank you.
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Old October 15th, 2011, 07:00 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
A sea crossing at Helsingør has no use for freight traffic as all rail lines from northern Sjælland lead straight into central København where rail capacities are very limited and almost entirely occupied by passenger services.

This proposed rail tunnel might be highly ambitious and its realisation extremely uncertain. But the plan is not as ridiculous as many think. This rail line would add new rail capacities between Scandinavia and continental Europe. It would not only bypass the bottleneck that København and Sjælland is but also Hamburg. At the moment all transit corridors whether road or rail through Denmark head straight into Hamburg with it already clogged network.
The route to Stralsund, however, would be connect to three different routes which would take traffic from the tunnel further south. These route through east Germany have spare capacities unlike mainlines in west Germany.

And then there is something else. Denmark is a 25V island between Scandinavia and Germany. A direct rail connection between Sweden and Germany would make it possible to haul trains with a single voltage engine from Narvik to Villach.
The major question of Helsingør, then, is whether or not it would be built with a concomitant freight bypass of København city center. I would frankly assume it would, particularly since such a route is much more natural for freight than passenger traffic.
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Old October 15th, 2011, 01:40 PM   #29
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Quote:
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The major question of Helsingør, then, is whether or not it would be built with a concomitant freight bypass of København city center. I would frankly assume it would, particularly since such a route is much more natural for freight than passenger traffic.
Freight lines faces fierce opposition from the locals. Freight trains are louder than passenger services and there is no direct benefit for the people living along such a railway line. I think that exactly this makes a 150 km long tunnel through the sea attractive. 150 km through uninhabitated areas is beneficial these days.
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Old October 17th, 2011, 12:31 PM   #30
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The Ring 5 corridor is already reserved for a double track railway and motorway all the way from Helsingør to Køge and will bypass the greater Copenhagen area.

Each existing S-train line will have a station on this line (Allerød Nord, Kildedal, and Køge Nord) trains will also go to Roskilde on Vestbanen so it will also serve passengers.
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Old October 18th, 2011, 05:59 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
Freight lines faces fierce opposition from the locals. Freight trains are louder than passenger services and there is no direct benefit for the people living along such a railway line. I think that exactly this makes a 150 km long tunnel through the sea attractive. 150 km through uninhabitated areas is beneficial these days.
...Looks like most of northern and western Zealand is at least semi-rural. There's a pretty fair belt of green between Copenhagen and Roskilde you could run a freight line through. Through-shipments don't need to converge on Copenhagen city center anyway, and you could build a classification yard where the Helsingor, Fehmarn, Oresund, and Great Belt lines all meet and thus avoid the Englewood problem althogether; this also massively undermines the need for the crossing being proposed at hand.
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Old March 24th, 2013, 08:23 PM   #32
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From another thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLAG View Post
And here is another connection. From todays Dagens industri Tunnel till Tyskland lockar Skanska
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Old March 25th, 2013, 04:45 PM   #33
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A combined motorway and rail tunnel between Helsingør and Helsingborg and the ring 5 corridor is still half the price.

And they have not included the price of connecting the tunnel in both ends, existing rail lines are not up to date.


The ring 5 corridor with both a motorway and railway line will cost 18,9 billion DKK and will also benefit Copenhagen.

http://www.regionh.dk/NR/rdonlyres/E...nekorridor.pdf


The tunnels (one for passenger trains and a combined tunnel for the motorway and freight trains) will cost 32,2 billion DKK.

http://www.regionh.dk/NR/rdonlyres/2...e_analyser.pdf


But in reality they don´t need 3 railway lines under the strait and there is nothing agains locating a station south of Helsingør instead of downtown like in the proposal.

The passenger tunnel costs 9,2 billion and the other tunnel 23 billion so in my head they could save a few billions by building 2 tracks next to the motorway tunnel and not building the dedicated passenger train tunnel.

I don´t know the extra costs of that but I´m guessing that it´s lower than 9,2 billion.


And then we could also add a 60 kilometre high speed line (250 km/h) from Køge Nord to the Storestrøm bridge that has been proposed and will probably costs around 7-9 billion DKK.

Last edited by bongo-anders; March 25th, 2013 at 06:17 PM.
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Old March 25th, 2013, 07:58 PM   #34
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The germans were not interested to financially support the Fehmarn-bridge, so I don't think they would be keen on putting some money in to this project either.

A bridge is out of the question, constructing a tunnel seems to be possible, but the financing is the major issue here. I presume the traffic volumes must be at least on the same level as the eurotunnel to make it profitable. Population density in Scandinavia is too low to generate enough traffic for the profit needed.

Today there is no direct connection from Norway to Denmark or Germany. The only direct train Sweden-Germany (with ferry) is seasonal, so would this tunnel increase the traffic ?

I understand that the Baltic Sea tunnel is under proposal, but it's still far from realization.
Having in mind that the English channel tunnel was proposed in 1802 and the Öresund bridge in the 1940's there is still time to evaluate this idea.

I hope it will be realized in future, but I will not be alive to see it.
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Old March 25th, 2013, 09:55 PM   #35
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As the situation is now a tunnel would bring no benefit to Oslo (or the rest of Norway even further away). The train speed would not exceed 200 km/h from Oslo to Gothenburg and the future for Gothenburg-Malmö seems unclear as well. That means a total of 3 hours Oslo-Malmö at the best. Add another 2 hours for Berlin, and people would rather take the plane.

Stockholm would be in a slightly better position if there comes up a 300 km/h line from Jönköping to Malmö, but still close to 3 hours.

This tunnel would only be interesting for the Gothenburg, Copenhagen and Malmö areas, plus North-Eastern Germany.

The same would apply to Gedser/Rostock of course, but this option is considerably cheaper and has more local benefits.
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Old March 26th, 2013, 01:06 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by :jax: View Post
Add another 2 hours for Berlin, and people would rather take the plane.
There is a demand for long distance traintravel. There are direct nighttrains from Copenhagen to Amsterdam, Cologne, Basel and Prague. So why don't those people using those trains take the plane ?

Having in mind that the cheapest sleeper one way train ticket
Copenhagen-Prague costs 144 EUR you really have to be a hardcore railway fan to pay that price and there are people who do that, because they don't like flying.


Quote:
Originally Posted by :jax: View Post
This tunnel would only be interesting for the Gothenburg, Copenhagen and Malmö areas, plus North-Eastern Germany.

The same would apply to Gedser/Rostock of course, but this option is considerably cheaper and has more local benefits.
I think a tunnel connection with direct trains Stockholm-Berlin would be profitable today, but when the Fehmarn connection is completed I doubt that
the Baltic tunnel would be needed. Also a tunnel Gedser-Warnemunde is likely to be built before this Baltic tunnel proposal.
But as a patriotic swede I still would like to be able to
go to continental Europe without having to enter Denmark.
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Old March 26th, 2013, 01:18 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NordikNerd View Post
There is a demand for long distance traintravel. There are direct nighttrains from Copenhagen to Amsterdam, Cologne, Basel and Prague. So why don't those people using those trains take the plane ?

Having in mind that the cheapest sleeper one way train ticket
Copenhagen-Prague costs 144 EUR you really have to be a hardcore railway fan to pay that price and there are people who do that, because they don't like flying.
They are people who use nighttrains, yes, but a typical Euronight carries 200 people each night. You cannot make a tunnel for 200 pax/day.

Nighttrains profitability justify themselves but nothing more.
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Old March 26th, 2013, 04:47 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NordikNerd View Post
There is a demand for long distance traintravel. There are direct nighttrains from Copenhagen to Amsterdam, Cologne, Basel and Prague. So why don't those people using those trains take the plane ?

Having in mind that the cheapest sleeper one way train ticket
Copenhagen-Prague costs 144 EUR you really have to be a hardcore railway fan to pay that price and there are people who do that, because they don't like flying.
I know people who can't fly for health reasons, but there are not enough of those and those who has a fear of flying to make ground travel profitable.

The question is who is going to pay for it? If Norway and Sweden don't have the money to build high-speed trains in their own country (or Oslo-Gothenburg or Oslo-Karlstad or conceivably Trondheim-Östersund), they are not going to put in money in this project, and neither is Denmark, Germany or Poland. Privat investors won't either as this is definitely a loss-making project.
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Old March 27th, 2013, 03:08 PM   #39
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If Swedish and Norwegian companies find a way to enter the eastern European markets, it might have a chance. This tunnel would drastically reduce the distance from Scandinavia to eastern Europe. From Malmö to Hamburg there are by rail about 560 km. To Berlin about 400 km. From there you have good connections to Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia or Hungary.
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