Worst slums in America.....third world or western world?

[kwoldtimer]

Could one perhaps suggest that this thread is going absolutely nowhere useful and should be shut down?

[old school]

Originally Posted by Yuri S Andrade

Jesus! I'm shocked with such distorted view of reality. I didn't expect this in SSC!

Of course those people there have eletricity! 98.9% of households in Brazil do (PNAD 2009). The 1% is lost in the middle of Amazon Forest probably, as in Southeast the figure is 99.8%. Don't you see those blue things? What do you think that is? Water tanks, with piped and clean water! Don't you see the TV antennas? And do you realize the number of people living in favelas in Brazil is "only" 6.5 million out of 192 million.

And of course they get the food in the supermarkets! Where else would do they pick?!?! Jesus, they are regular people! Poor people, but not aliens or something. Do you know how much is the rent in a favela like this, near the upmarket areas of Rio (that's why they are packed in the moutains)? An one room (room, not bedroom) is about US$ 250.00 a month. You can check by yourself on Google: "favela aluguel".

And about your last post, Chile is today more developed than France in 1980 or Portugal in 2007.



But where I stated otherwise?



Well, so they were the best of propaganda in the XIX century as almost 20 million Europeans moved to those countries in few decades.



So what? What's wrong with that? You're just proving my point: the cultural and economic rexchanges between Europe and Latin America are very very strong. They're been like this for the past five centuries.



Paz? Feijoada is European; futebol is European; areia..., well; samba is mostly European; cerveja is European. And you realize samba is something from Rio de Janeiro, don't you? It's like I went to the Mardi Gras of New Orleans and than go to Idaho trying to find the same thing there.



It doesn't mean they're black. They have some African ancestry. Like I said, the amount of White Americans with some African ancestry is similar.

From Wikipedia article on "White" Brazilians:
Latin American oligarchies, which remained predominantly of European origin, believed - in syntony with the racialist theories then widespread in Europe - that the large numbers of Blacks and mixed Amerindians that made up the majority of the population were a handicap to the development of their countries. As a result, countries such as Argentina, Uruguay and Brazil started to encourage the arrival of European immigrants, in order to make the White population grow and to dilute the African and Amerindian blood in their population. Argentina even had an article in its Constitution prohibiting any attempt to prevent the entry of European immigrants in the country. In the case of Brazil, the immigrants started arriving in huge numbers during the 1880s. From 1886 to 1900, almost 1.4 million Europeans arrived, of whom over 900,000 were Italians. During this period of 14 years, Brazil received more Europeans than during the over 300 years of colonization.

According to Darcy Ribeiro before 1850 no more than 500,000 Europeans settled in Brazil[47] IBGE estimated that the number was close to 700,000 Portuguese.[48] The mass European immigration to Brazil only started in the second half of the 19th century, from 1850 to 1970 some 5 million Europeans arrived, because of three main reasons:

* to "whiten" Brazil, since the Amerindian and African elements predominated in the population, a fact that was considered a problem by the local elite, that considered these races inferior. Bringing European immigrants was seen as a way to "improve" the racial composition of the local population;
* to populate inhospitable areas of Brazil, mostly the Southern provinces;
* to replace African manpower, since the Atlantic slave trade was effectively suppressed in 1850 and coffee plantations were spreading in the region of São Paulo.

These immigrants had a larger and more visible impact in the state of São Paulo, along with the three southern states of Rio Grande do Sul, Santa Catarina and Paraná. In the southern states there were entire regions (such as the Serra Gaúcha and Vale do Jacuí) populated by German and Italian-speaking inhabitants. The immigrants remained closed in ethnic communities for decades. The Portuguese language only started to be used by these communities many decades after their arrival, as a result of their contact with Brazilians and with immigrants from other countries, but also because of the forced assimilation during the Getúlio Vargas's government, mostly inside the German community. In contrast to the early Portuguese colonists, these immigrants arrived with their entire families in Brazil, with large numbers of women and children. As a result, the areas where they were concentrated, most remarkably the central parts of Southern Brazil, became predominantly white.

In São Paulo, paulistas of Italian descent outnumbered those of earlier extraction. In this region, Italians, Portuguese, Spaniards and Arabs were easily integrated, since they had a close contact with the large local Brazilian population. At first working on coffee farms, later they moved to cities and participated in the process of industrialization of Brazil.

[old school]

Originally Posted by Yuri S Andrade

Jesus! I'm shocked with such distorted view of reality. I didn't expect this in SSC!

Of course those people there have eletricity! 98.9% of households in Brazil do (PNAD 2009). The 1% is lost in the middle of Amazon Forest probably, as in Southeast the figure is 99.8%. Don't you see those blue things? What do you think that is? Water tanks, with piped and clean water! Don't you see the TV antennas? And do you realize the number of people living in favelas in Brazil is "only" 6.5 million out of 192 million.

And of course they get the food in the supermarkets! Where else would do they pick?!?! Jesus, they are regular people! Poor people, but not aliens or something. Do you know how much is the rent in a favela like this, near the upmarket areas of Rio (that's why they are packed in the moutains)? An one room (room, not bedroom) is about US$ 250.00 a month. You can check by yourself on Google: "favela aluguel".

And about your last post, Chile is today more developed than France in 1980 or Portugal in 2007.



But where I stated otherwise?



Well, so they were the best of propaganda in the XIX century as almost 20 million Europeans moved to those countries in few decades.



So what? What's wrong with that? You're just proving my point: the cultural and economic rexchanges between Europe and Latin America are very very strong. They're been like this for the past five centuries.



Paz? Feijoada is European; futebol is European; areia..., well; samba is mostly European; cerveja is European. And you realize samba is something from Rio de Janeiro, don't you? It's like I went to the Mardi Gras of New Orleans and than go to Idaho trying to find the same thing there.



It doesn't mean they're black. They have some African ancestry. Like I said, the amount of White Americans with some African ancestry is similar.

Look, fejoada may have come from Portugal orignally, but the Brazilian version has an influence from African slaves. The meals are very different and, as such, fejoada is the Brazilian national dish. Samba originated in Rio, among former slaves in the favelas; it is popular all over Brazil although forro and sertaneja are popular in the northeast and "cowboy" music is popular in the interior of SP state and in central-west states. Samba defines Brazil and it is not mostly European, it's mostly african played with a combination of African and European instruments.

cerveja, areia and paz define Brazilians, a peaceful, out-going people who are proud of their country and rightly so...

Peace, out...

[Yuri S Andrade]

Originally Posted by old school

From Wikipedia article on "White" Brazilians:
Latin American oligarchies, which remained predominantly of European origin, believed - in syntony with the racialist theories then widespread in Europe - that the large numbers of Blacks and mixed Amerindians that made up the majority of the population were a handicap to the development of their countries. As a result, countries such as Argentina, Uruguay and Brazil started to encourage the arrival of European immigrants, in order to make the White population grow and to dilute the African and Amerindian blood in their population. Argentina even had an article in its Constitution prohibiting any attempt to prevent the entry of European immigrants in the country. In the case of Brazil, the immigrants started arriving in huge numbers during the 1880s. From 1886 to 1900, almost 1.4 million Europeans arrived, of whom over 900,000 were Italians. During this period of 14 years, Brazil received more Europeans than during the over 300 years of colonization.

According to Darcy Ribeiro before 1850 no more than 500,000 Europeans settled in Brazil[47] IBGE estimated that the number was close to 700,000 Portuguese.[48] The mass European immigration to Brazil only started in the second half of the 19th century, from 1850 to 1970 some 5 million Europeans arrived, because of three main reasons:

* to "whiten" Brazil, since the Amerindian and African elements predominated in the population, a fact that was considered a problem by the local elite, that considered these races inferior. Bringing European immigrants was seen as a way to "improve" the racial composition of the local population;
* to populate inhospitable areas of Brazil, mostly the Southern provinces;
* to replace African manpower, since the Atlantic slave trade was effectively suppressed in 1850 and coffee plantations were spreading in the region of São Paulo.

These immigrants had a larger and more visible impact in the state of São Paulo, along with the three southern states of Rio Grande do Sul, Santa Catarina and Paraná. In the southern states there were entire regions (such as the Serra Gaúcha and Vale do Jacuí) populated by German and Italian-speaking inhabitants. The immigrants remained closed in ethnic communities for decades. The Portuguese language only started to be used by these communities many decades after their arrival, as a result of their contact with Brazilians and with immigrants from other countries, but also because of the forced assimilation during the Getúlio Vargas's government, mostly inside the German community. In contrast to the early Portuguese colonists, these immigrants arrived with their entire families in Brazil, with large numbers of women and children. As a result, the areas where they were concentrated, most remarkably the central parts of Southern Brazil, became predominantly white.

In São Paulo, paulistas of Italian descent outnumbered those of earlier extraction. In this region, Italians, Portuguese, Spaniards and Arabs were easily integrated, since they had a close contact with the large local Brazilian population. At first working on coffee farms, later they moved to cities and participated in the process of industrialization of Brazil.

What's your point? To prove Brazil was heavily settled by Europeans (first Portuguese and than Italians and Germans) and therefore it's part of the Western World? We all know that. About 45% of Brazilians are white. In São Paulo state (the wealthiest and most populated state, 41 million people) is 64% (90% back in 1940). In the three southernmost (27 million people), is 79%. In my city, it's 71%, mostly Italians.

About the racial theories, that was mainstream in the West back then, which shows how connected Latin America and Europe were/are. They've always been like this. I don't know what made tou think they weren't.

Originally Posted by old school

Look, fejoada may have come from Portugal orignally, but the Brazilian version has an influence from African slaves. The meals are very different and, as such, fejoada is the Brazilian national dish. Samba originated in Rio, among former slaves in the favelas; it is popular all over Brazil although forro and sertaneja are popular in the northeast and "cowboy" music is popular in the interior of SP state and in central-west states. Samba defines Brazil and it is not mostly European, it's mostly african played with a combination of African and European instruments.

cerveja, areia and paz define Brazilians, a peaceful, out-going people who are proud of their country and rightly so...

Peace, out...

Like I said, you're repeating stereotypes. Nobody listens samba outside Rio. And even there, it's not overwhelming. Do you know Germans don't wear lederhosen, don't you? The same thing reasoning is apllied to Brazil. About feijoada, you're taking the romantize version of the facts. Brazilians intellectuals during the second half of XXth tried to create a magic around the African heritage.

And even if Brazil mainstream culture have some non-European influence. The US one doesn't?

[old school]

Originally Posted by Yuri S Andrade

What's your point? To prove Brazil was heavily settled by Europeans (first Portuguese and than Italians and Germans) and therefore it's part of the Western World? We all know that. About 45% of Brazilians are white. In São Paulo state (the wealthiest and most populated state, 41 million people) is 64% (90% back in 1940). In the three southernmost (27 million people), is 79%. In my city, it's 71%, mostly Italians.

About the racial theories, that was mainstream in the West back then, which shows how connected Latin America and Europe were/are. They've always been like this. I don't know what made tou think they weren't.

My point was that it is acknowledged that European immigration was pursued to "whiten" the population of Brazil, Argentina and Uruguay and that most assimilated into the existing culture...

Peace, out

[Yuri S Andrade]

The existing culture was European. European political and economic systems, European culture, European architecture, European ideas, even an European dynasty for Brazil. "Ah, but you're so different from the US!" Aren't the Spaniards, the Portuguese, the Italians, the French as well? And than, with the arrival of millions and millions of Italians, Germans, Spaniards, Portuguese, Polish, etc. etc., in a under-populated region, the culture, which already was Western, became even more westernized.

[Northsider]

Well this thread devolved quickly into the depths of moronity, ignorance, and irrelevant rabble rousing. Not surprising, considering the ensemble of "quality" posters here.

I love South America, but you definitely are not Western. Enjoy your shanties, unpaved roads, overpopulation, horrific congestion, horrific air quality, terrible water, out of control crime, etc, etc, etc...

<unsubscribe>

[old school]

Originally Posted by Yuri S Andrade

The existing culture was European. European political and economic systems, European culture, European architecture, European ideas, even an European dynasty for Brazil. "Ah, but you're so different from the US!" Aren't the Spaniards, the Portuguese, the Italians, the French as well? And than, with the arrival of millions and millions of Italians, Germans, Spaniards, Portuguese, Polish, etc. etc., in a under-populated region, the culture, which already was Western, became even more westernized.

Whatever.....
We will have to agree to disagree, because Brazil is not a "European" type country, in my opinion.

Let's move on and get back on topic, please...

Peace...

[Yuri S Andrade]

Yes, the Europeans are the Black Americans. Don't you see the resemblance between than and the Italians? You didn't give us anything to prove your point. Anything to justify what Italians, Spaniards, Swedes, New Zealanders have in common but don't share with Argentines or Brazilians. Anglo-Saxon is not equal to West.

However, I appreciate the fact that is very hard to get rid of a such deep-rooted preconceived idea. It's almost like part of the person. Here in Brazil, for example, despite all exposure to American culture (an average Brazilian, for example, watch at least 50 US movies a year) the misconceptions about the US are also very widespread.

And talk about Western definition is part of the thread. The author chose the title, not me. About the other part, yes, clearly there are "third world" conditions all over the US. I posted many data about this all over the thread and we could be talking about this if people didn't insist in this absurd discussion of Latin America not be part of West.

Originally Posted by Northsider

Well this thread devolved quickly into the depths of moronity, ignorance, and irrelevant rabble rousing. Not surprising, considering the ensemble of "quality" posters here.

I love South America, but you definitely are not Western. Enjoy your shanties, unpaved roads, overpopulation, horrific congestion, horrific air quality, terrible water, out of control crime, etc, etc, etc...

<unsubscribe>

Only your posts could be described as such. It's only an incoherent, ignorant, childish, hysterical and bigoted outburst. You really don't see how absurd and contradictory is this post?

[Xpressway]

Originally Posted by meaburroperomerio

I think Chile is better than USA today, not 30 years ago...

Somebody needs to visit the U.S...

[hudkina]

Originally Posted by Yuri S Andrade

hudkina, please, don't. I know quite well what's the US place in the world. You're the ones with completely flat view of other countries reality. I just delivered you the verified facts. If you, for some reason, prefer to ignore them, to live in an alternate world, what can we do?

And back to the topic, I said yes, there're plenty of "third world" places in the US. You only dispute that because you have a completely distorted view of Latin America, your best reference for "third world". You tend to think the place is several times worse than it actually is. If 1% of people don't have eletricity, in your heads would be something around 50%. The other thing I contest, it's the western world definition, which is beyond absurd around here.

P.S. I' like to correct my statements about Chile: actually, the country is now more developed than 2009's Portugal and early 1990's France. Back in 1980, only Australia, United States, Canada and Switzerland were more developed than Chile is today. As you can see, your definition of western world should be always changing.

You are putting words in my mouth. I never onced described Latin America as "third world". In fact I specifically stated Latin America isn't "third world". However, if you can't objectively see the difference in the standard of living between most Latin American countries and that of the U.S., Canada, and Western Europe, I don't know what to tell you.

BTW, it doesn't matter how Chile compares to certain countries 30 years ago. Like I said, the Western World is definied by the most technologically and economically advanced region of the world at any given time. Chile today can only be compared to the Portugal and France of today.

[meaburroperomerio]

I know USA and I dont like it at all... at all... the culture, the fat people eating fast food everywhere, those who think that Rio de Janeiro is the Capital of Buenos Aires are everywhere...

[hudkina]

So wait... Who is generalizing now?

BTW, obesity is a sign of being a Western Nation...

Also the U.S. has defined Western Culture over the last 200 years. If you don't like Western Culture, why are you so adamant you are part of the Western World?

[meaburroperomerio]

Ja,... thats a sign of ignorance... educated people know to feed themselves property...
Good bye Homer Simpson... go and educate yourself a little.

[hudkina]

So what it all boils down to is you have an inferiority complex...

[isakres]

lol this thread

[Xpressway]

Originally Posted by meaburroperomerio

I know USA and I dont like it at all... at all... the culture, the fat people eating fast food everywhere, those who think that Rio de Janeiro is the Capital of Buenos Aires are everywhere...

Implying chilenos aren't getting fatter.
We aren't ranking very well in terms of obesity and the trend is getting worse.

Not even funny.

[gerardo16]

Ok after all this bizarre discussion lets put some facts in the table for LA

Political organization: Republic coming from Europe on specific Rome
Lenguaje: Spanish and Portuguese, so coming from Europe
Religion: Mostly catholics European legacy
Race: Mixed mostly Ameridian with some countries with a white mayority and Black population
Food: Mixed between Ameridian, European, African and Asian (Mostly first two)
Legal system: Roman law

This is the description of western world

The Western world, also known as the West and the Occident (from Latin: occidens "sunset, west"; as contrasted with the Orient), is a term referring to the countries of Western Europe (including Cyprus), the countries of the Americas, as well all countries of [1] Northern and Central Europe, Australia and New Zealand.

The concept of the Western part of the earth has its roots in Greco-Roman civilization in Europe, with the advent of Christianity. In the modern era, Western culture has been heavily influenced by the traditions of The Renaissance, The Protestant Reformation, The Enlightenment, and shaped by the expansive colonialism of the 16th-19th centuries. Its political usage was temporarily informed by a mutual antagonism with the Soviet bloc during the Cold War in the mid to late 20th Century (1944-1989). In the contemporary religious and cultural meaning, the term Western world refers to the countries of Western Europe as well as countries of western European colonial origin in the New World such as the United States of America, Brazil, Mexico, Canada, Australia and Argentina.

^ a b Thompson, William; Joseph Hickey (2005). Society in Focus. Boston, MA: Pearson. 0-205-41365-X Broek and Webb, "A Geography of Mankind" (2nd ed., 1973) at 199, 201; cf., Arnold Toynbee, "Change and Habit" (Oxford University, 1966)..



So now I think everybody can have their own conclusions

[Yuri S Andrade]

Gerardo, that's something so basic! I can't conceive how people ignore this such elementar definition. I guess people in this forum were skipping History classes...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally Posted by hudkina

So wait... Who is generalizing now?

BTW, obesity is a sign of being a Western Nation...

France is calling...

Originally Posted by hudkina

You are putting words in my mouth. I never onced described Latin America as "third world". In fact I specifically stated Latin America isn't "third world". However, if you can't objectively see the difference in the standard of living between most Latin American countries and that of the U.S., Canada, and Western Europe, I don't know what to tell you.

Of course we can see the difference. Who said otherwise? Although today there's no difference between Chile and Portugal. In 1980, Argentina and Uruguay were tied with Spain. Few years back, they outperformed virtually all countries in Western Europe.

Originally Posted by hudkina

BTW, it doesn't matter how Chile compares to certain countries 30 years ago. Like I said, the Western World is definied by the most technologically and economically advanced region of the world at any given time. Chile today can only be compared to the Portugal and France of today.

Hudkina, how can you possible bring such retard (excuse the word) definition? Western World is how the European civilization is called. We only use "West" instead of "European" because it was transplanted to other lands (America). Actually the other word for West was Christiany, only abandoned due the secularization of Christian (Western) countries.

The West has been the most advanced civilization for the past four hundred years only. The West doesn't have the monopoly of the development. Other civilizations can in the future overcome West.

[Hia-leah JDM]

Originally Posted by Yuri S Andrade

France is calling...

Obesity levels in France have more than doubled since the 90's, they're getting fat too