Old Oak Common & Park Royal City/Transport Hub/Regeneration - Page 3

potto · January 11th, 2012, 09:59 PM

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standa...world-class.do

London HS2 mega-hub 'will be world-class'

Peter Dominiczak, City Hall Correspondent
11 Jan 2012

One of the capital's leading architects claimed today that a west London "mega-hub" for high-speed rail will rival the world's greatest stations.

Sir Terry Farrell said his proposed Old Oak Common interchange, near Wormwood Scrubs, will be able to compete with stations such as St Pancras and China's huge Beijing South in China - which he also designed.

Hammersmith and Fulham council has recruited the architect to design the Park Royal City project, which will include the Old Oak interchange. Sir Terry's vision also features shops, flats overlooking a canal and a monorail to nearby business centres.

The project aims to create at least 20,000 jobs and 10,000 homes.

Yesterday, the Government finally gave the go-ahead to the £32 billion HS2 rail scheme, after pledging three miles of extra tunnelling in the capital to appease protesters.

From 2026, trains travelling at 225mph will slash journey times from London to Birmingham to 49 minutes. About a third of HS2 passengers are expected to transfer at Old Oak Common. It will connect to Crossrail and other train services, giving faster access to London's airports - with Heathrow only 11 minutes away.

Sir Terry said: "This is an extraordinary opportunity. There is no doubt [Old Oak Common] would probably be the centre of all UK rail connections.

"With HS2 connecting to Crossrail it would be the best way into London. It will become London's mega-hub. It has every chance of being a 21st-century version of a station like St Pancras."

Mark Loveday, Hammersmith and Fulham's cabinet member for strategy, said: "This is a once in lifetime opportunity to transform a forgotten part of London from a Bermuda Triangle of inactivity into a thriving new neighbourhood."

A spokesman for Mayor Boris Johnson said: "The station proposed would potentially help revive an underdeveloped area and provide an important interchange with Crossrail.

"However, the Mayor's team are now keen to see more details, and to ensure the Government plans to provide every possible support."

Meanwhile the economic case for HS2 was questioned today. Government calculations in the project's Value for Money statement show that the benefit-cost ratio of the route has fallen, from a gain of £1.60 for every £1 invested to a gain of £1.40.

Stephen Glaister, a transport economist and executive director of the RAC Foundation, said: "The Treasury wouldn't normally get out of bed for that. The economic case for HS2 has not been made."

Jon10 · January 13th, 2012, 05:09 PM

Latest info. from TfL:

1. What time-scale would transport improvements happen there (at OOC), if the Government approves of HS2 in the new year?

It is too early at this stage to be definitive. TfL are pushing High Speed Two Limited (HS2 Ltd) to include plans for connecting the London Overground into the interchange at Old Oak Common in time for the initial phase, due to open in 2026.

2. What does TfL think of the light-rail proposals of LBH&F?

TfL are supportive of the principle of providing local connections from Old Oak Common to surrounding areas, such as Kensal, Park Royal and Willesden Junction. A light rail system may be the best way to provide these links, but more work is required to determine whether other options may be more suitable.

3. Is there any news of how HS2 would connect to HS1?

TfL do not support the current proposal to link HS2 to HS1 due to the likely adverse impacts on both London Overground and freight services on the North London Line. Network Rail are undertaking further work for HS2 Ltd exploring alternative options for linking the two high speed lines.

4. Is there any news about a Crossrail station in K&C as well as at Old Oak Common?

TfL do not support having Crossrail stations at both Kensal Gasworks (K&C) and Old Oak Common (H&F). The journey time disbenefits to through passengers would outweigh the benefits. Due to the connectivity benefits brought about by providing an HS2 / Crossrail interchange, TfL are fully supportive of a Crossrail station at Old Oak Common. As such, TfL do not support stopping Crossrail trains at Kensal Gasworks. In addition to this – given the close proximity of the two station locations, it is felt that links between Old Oak Common and Kensal Gasworks could be provided by other means.

5. Would WCML slow trains be diverted onto Crossrail? If so how would that be done; would the trains call at Old Oak Common? With extra platforms?

TfL have undertaken extensive analysis into diverting some of the WCML slow trains onto Crossrail. In particular, if those London Midland slow line services that currently run into Euston are instead run as Crossrail services, there may well be a large reduction in passenger arrivals at Euston, potentially freeing up space for HS2 passengers. This would require a new rail link between the WCML and GWML in the Old Oak Common vicinity, potentially utilising the Dudding Hill Line. Crossrail trains running up the WCML could call at Old Oak Common, either at new platforms, or they could utilise the platforms provided on the GWML as part of the HS2 proposals.

6. H&F have suggested completely new Overground platforms parallel to the Old Oak HS2 and Crossrail platforms on the south side of those lines.

a. Is this being considered?

H&F have safeguarded a section above the North Pole sidings, as part of the conditions for the IEP depot. This would potentially allow for London Overground platforms, although such a station would be 200-300m away from the HS2 / Crossrail interchange at Old Oak Common. TfL are exploring options that would allow for easier interchange between all three services (LO, HS2 and Crossrail) – see Figure 1, below.

b. If so, would NLL or WLL Overground trains use it?

Potentially both WLL and NLL services could serve this station.

c. If not are platforms on the NLL or WLL at Old Oak being considered?

See (a) above.

7. Would the Central line station at North Acton be moved nearer to Old Oak or NLL?

Under TfL’s preferred plans, North Acton station would remain where it is.

8. Would Southern services stop at OOC and if so how?

Southern services could make use of the connection from the WLL (see Figure 1 below) potentially allowing Clapham Junction to Milton Keynes services to run via Old Oak Common.

9. Regarding a possible “Hounslow to Hendon” Overground service, would this call at Old Oak (and how)? What stations are feasible in Brent?

As part of a new interchange at Old Oak Common, running London Overground services along the Dudding Hill Line, via Old Oak Common could be considered, although these services might have to reverse at Old Oak Common for this to be possible.

10. Is Overground being considered because light-rail on the Dudding Hill Line is too difficult to mix with freight?

Overground services on the Dudding Hill line are being considered because, given the other London Overground services in the area, extending the London Overground network is likely to be more cost-effective than providing a new light rail network. It is essential that the ability for freight trains to use the Dudding Hill line is retained. It may be possible to develop a scheme where light rail services can operate alongside freight trains, but operating London Overground services over the Dudding Hill line is likely to be a simpler way of providing improved connectivity between Brent Cross and Old Oak Common.

(The minor difference from previous TfL maps is that the Southern trains are now also shown running via OOC.)

cle · January 13th, 2012, 05:34 PM

Could Southern trains from Gatwick, EC, CJ and Shepherds Bush run on to Heathrow? Surely that would be hugely popular.

iranair777 · January 13th, 2012, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cle

Could Southern trains from Gatwick, EC, CJ and Shepherds Bush run on to Heathrow? Surely that would be hugely popular.

It would be possible, but feasible is another question. with current capacity at breaking point, in order to have such a service be deemed successful it would need to be run as regularly as the Heathrow express. Unless services were cut on the Brighton main line every hour, I don't see it happening. Although I must say it will be a great idea to have a service from west london to gatwick (saves on the travel time and cost from me flying with cheap fares

)

mr_jrt · January 13th, 2012, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon10

TfL do not support having Crossrail stations at both Kensal Gasworks (K&C) and Old Oak Common (H&F). The journey time disbenefits to through passengers would outweigh the benefits. Due to the connectivity benefits brought about by providing an HS2 / Crossrail interchange, TfL are fully supportive of a Crossrail station at Old Oak Common. As such, TfL do not support stopping Crossrail trains at Kensal Gasworks. In addition to this – given the close proximity of the two station locations, it is felt that links between Old Oak Common and Kensal Gasworks could be provided by other means.

...of course, if they weren't so pig-headed about things, they could accept there are two separate markets at work here and build a 6-track passenger railway. That way, the local services could happily serve both stations (and indeed, a few more), with the regional Crossrail trains only serving OOC and Hayes & Harlington (for interchange to the locals serving Heathrow).

lemmo · January 13th, 2012, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Latest info. from TfL:

etc...

Where is this info from please Jon10? Did you ask TfL directly, or is it online?

cheers

stephen_c · January 14th, 2012, 01:01 AM

TfL comments appear to come from this Local Councillor blog - http://barnhill-newdawn.blogspot.com...-querries.html

This scheme looks a lot better than the first version, where IIRC the Overground station was to be South of the GWML. Its just possible that OOC may yet drive a good interchange in the area, but there is still no connection to the Central (or Bakerloo, but thats less important with the Overground link)

Jon10 · January 14th, 2012, 03:50 PM

It is presumably, and regretfully, impossible to raise the capital for a six-track railway.

If Hammersmith & Fulham pursue their light-rail efforts at OOC, this would throw a bone to Kensington & Chelsea, at Kensal futher east. It looks like at least a single light-rail track could even stretch to Westbourne Park (H&C, Circle Line) station, where there was a GW station as well, until ?the early 1990s.

mr_jrt · January 14th, 2012, 10:38 PM

The ironic thing is that the railway is 8 track until OOC, then an easy 5-track to airport junction aside from Ealing Broadway. IMHO, 6 would be easy along that same stretch aside from Ealing Broadway, again. It's a shame Crossrail isn't doing a more comprehensive rebuild of the station to fix these problems (and perhaps enable the Central/District to run through to the Greenford branch....

dadge · January 14th, 2012, 11:14 PM

FWIW, this was part of what I sent in during the public consultation:

Names:
Old Oak Common station should be called (London) Acton HST or (London) Acton
Wells HST. (The station site is in Acton and will probably incorporate a
moved Acton North tube station, which should also be renamed.) The name Old
Oak Common is too quaint and obscure.

Route:
Given that the section into Euston may be shelved or delayed, the design
should allow for Paddington to be a temporary terminus for some or all of
the services, and for a loop line on the Old Oak Common site to allow a
temporary connection with HS1.

I recommend that if HS2 isn't going to connect directly with Heathrow, the
Central Line should be linked to the Piccadilly Line via a new tunnel in
Acton to provide an express tube link to Heathrow.

Irish Blood English Heart · January 15th, 2012, 12:37 AM

That Crossrail depot is huge & is going to use up a lot of space that I thought was planned for offices and housing as part of plans for a new CBD.

Jon10 · January 15th, 2012, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irish Blood English Heart

That Crossrail depot is huge & is going to use up a lot of space that I thought was planned for offices and housing as part of plans for a new CBD.

Quite agree. Well, at least all the land is in Hammersmith & Fulham, and if that borough says it wants a new town, it must have some sort of cunning plan.

Building over a depot, like Westfield White City is built over the Central Line sidings, is a possibility. Could the depot move south of the GWML to use part of the Eurostar site? But that is on the wrong side of the GWML fast lines.

OperateOnMe · January 15th, 2012, 04:24 PM

Hello Can someone explain HS2 connections to HS1 in London please

I understand these are some of the the possibilities (why not route via a re-organised waterloo?)

1. HS2-OOC-Euton-Stratford-HS1 (preferred)
2. HS2-Euston/SP-Stratford-HS1
3. HS2-OOC-Waterloo-HS1
4. HS2-Heathrow-Euston-HS1
....

Jon10 · January 15th, 2012, 04:28 PM

There is a third, central tunnel, east from Old Oak Common station.

But instead of coming to the surface at Primrose Hill, and taking over the southern-most of the four possible tracks through Camden Road station, it seems more likely it will now stay underground, and emerge further east, to join the start of the HS1 tunnel. But of course, that would cost more.

***ill tonkso*** · January 15th, 2012, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OperateOnMe

Hello Can someone explain HS2 connections to HS1 in London please

I understand these are some of the the possibilities (why not route via a re-organised waterloo?)

1. HS2-OOC-Euton-Stratford-HS1 (preferred)
2. HS2-Euston/SP-Stratford-HS1
3. HS2-OOC-Waterloo-HS1
4. HS2-Heathrow-Euston-HS1
....

Waterloo would be a seriously bad idea. First of all, Waterloo is on a high viaduct right on the kink in the river, secondly, the Eurostar was removed from Waterloo for a reason. It ate too much train path on the South London Suburban Lines.

Tallsmurf · January 16th, 2012, 05:42 AM

I would imagine the best solutions would be:

HS2 - OOC - Euston

HS1 - St Pancras (not stopping at Stratford)

HS2 - OOC - Stratford - HS1 (ie through trains not stopping at Euston or St Pancras)

CharlieP · January 16th, 2012, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tallsmurf

I would imagine the best solutions would be:

HS2 - OOC - Euston

HS1 - St Pancras (not stopping at Stratford)

HS2 - OOC - Stratford - HS1 (ie through trains not stopping at Euston or St Pancras)

The first two are (1) the proposed main HS2 route and (2) what already exists. Am I missing something?

CharlieP · January 16th, 2012, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ill tonkso

Waterloo would be a seriously bad idea. First of all, Waterloo is on a high viaduct right on the kink in the river, secondly, the Eurostar was removed from Waterloo for a reason. It ate too much train path on the South London Suburban Lines.

...and required a kludgy dual voltage system. Am I right in thinking that the third rail shoes and DC systems have been removed from the Eurostar fleet?

TRaji00 · January 16th, 2012, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlieP

...and required a kludgy dual voltage system. Am I right in thinking that the third rail shoes and DC systems have been removed from the Eurostar fleet?

Yep - removed not long after the move to St Pancras I believe

Tallsmurf · January 17th, 2012, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlieP

The first two are (1) the proposed main HS2 route and (2) what already exists. Am I missing something?

In response to poster above proposing that HS2-HS1 connections go via Euston or St P or even Waterloo.

There is no need for a HS2-HS1 link to go via Euston or St P but should bypass both and have london stops at OOC and Stratford only

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January 11th, 2012, 09:59 PM	#41
potto Registered User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: London Posts: 13,496 Likes (Received): 250	http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standa...world-class.do London HS2 mega-hub 'will be world-class' Peter Dominiczak, City Hall Correspondent 11 Jan 2012 One of the capital's leading architects claimed today that a west London "mega-hub" for high-speed rail will rival the world's greatest stations. Sir Terry Farrell said his proposed Old Oak Common interchange, near Wormwood Scrubs, will be able to compete with stations such as St Pancras and China's huge Beijing South in China - which he also designed. Hammersmith and Fulham council has recruited the architect to design the Park Royal City project, which will include the Old Oak interchange. Sir Terry's vision also features shops, flats overlooking a canal and a monorail to nearby business centres. The project aims to create at least 20,000 jobs and 10,000 homes. Yesterday, the Government finally gave the go-ahead to the £32 billion HS2 rail scheme, after pledging three miles of extra tunnelling in the capital to appease protesters. From 2026, trains travelling at 225mph will slash journey times from London to Birmingham to 49 minutes. About a third of HS2 passengers are expected to transfer at Old Oak Common. It will connect to Crossrail and other train services, giving faster access to London's airports - with Heathrow only 11 minutes away. Sir Terry said: "This is an extraordinary opportunity. There is no doubt [Old Oak Common] would probably be the centre of all UK rail connections. "With HS2 connecting to Crossrail it would be the best way into London. It will become London's mega-hub. It has every chance of being a 21st-century version of a station like St Pancras." Mark Loveday, Hammersmith and Fulham's cabinet member for strategy, said: "This is a once in lifetime opportunity to transform a forgotten part of London from a Bermuda Triangle of inactivity into a thriving new neighbourhood." A spokesman for Mayor Boris Johnson said: "The station proposed would potentially help revive an underdeveloped area and provide an important interchange with Crossrail. "However, the Mayor's team are now keen to see more details, and to ensure the Government plans to provide every possible support." Meanwhile the economic case for HS2 was questioned today. Government calculations in the project's Value for Money statement show that the benefit-cost ratio of the route has fallen, from a gain of £1.60 for every £1 invested to a gain of £1.40. Stephen Glaister, a transport economist and executive director of the RAC Foundation, said: "The Treasury wouldn't normally get out of bed for that. The economic case for HS2 has not been made."

January 13th, 2012, 05:09 PM	#42
Jon10 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1,288 Likes (Received): 32	*Latest info. from TfL:* 1. What time-scale would transport improvements happen there (at OOC), if the Government approves of HS2 in the new year? It is too early at this stage to be definitive. TfL are pushing High Speed Two Limited (HS2 Ltd) to include plans for connecting the London Overground into the interchange at Old Oak Common in time for the initial phase, due to open in 2026. 2. What does TfL think of the light-rail proposals of LBH&F? TfL are supportive of the principle of providing local connections from Old Oak Common to surrounding areas, such as Kensal, Park Royal and Willesden Junction. A light rail system may be the best way to provide these links, but more work is required to determine whether other options may be more suitable. 3. Is there any news of how HS2 would connect to HS1? TfL do not support the current proposal to link HS2 to HS1 due to the likely adverse impacts on both London Overground and freight services on the North London Line. Network Rail are undertaking further work for HS2 Ltd exploring alternative options for linking the two high speed lines. 4. Is there any news about a Crossrail station in K&C as well as at Old Oak Common? TfL do not support having Crossrail stations at both Kensal Gasworks (K&C) and Old Oak Common (H&F). The journey time disbenefits to through passengers would outweigh the benefits. Due to the connectivity benefits brought about by providing an HS2 / Crossrail interchange, TfL are fully supportive of a Crossrail station at Old Oak Common. As such, TfL do not support stopping Crossrail trains at Kensal Gasworks. In addition to this – given the close proximity of the two station locations, it is felt that links between Old Oak Common and Kensal Gasworks could be provided by other means. 5. Would WCML slow trains be diverted onto Crossrail? If so how would that be done; would the trains call at Old Oak Common? With extra platforms? TfL have undertaken extensive analysis into diverting some of the WCML slow trains onto Crossrail. In particular, if those London Midland slow line services that currently run into Euston are instead run as Crossrail services, there may well be a large reduction in passenger arrivals at Euston, potentially freeing up space for HS2 passengers. This would require a new rail link between the WCML and GWML in the Old Oak Common vicinity, potentially utilising the Dudding Hill Line. Crossrail trains running up the WCML could call at Old Oak Common, either at new platforms, or they could utilise the platforms provided on the GWML as part of the HS2 proposals. 6. H&F have suggested completely new Overground platforms parallel to the Old Oak HS2 and Crossrail platforms on the south side of those lines. a. Is this being considered? H&F have safeguarded a section above the North Pole sidings, as part of the conditions for the IEP depot. This would potentially allow for London Overground platforms, although such a station would be 200-300m away from the HS2 / Crossrail interchange at Old Oak Common. TfL are exploring options that would allow for easier interchange between all three services (LO, HS2 and Crossrail) – see Figure 1, below. b. If so, would NLL or WLL Overground trains use it? Potentially both WLL and NLL services could serve this station. c. If not are platforms on the NLL or WLL at Old Oak being considered? See (a) above. 7. Would the Central line station at North Acton be moved nearer to Old Oak or NLL? Under TfL’s preferred plans, North Acton station would remain where it is. 8. Would Southern services stop at OOC and if so how? Southern services could make use of the connection from the WLL (see Figure 1 below) potentially allowing Clapham Junction to Milton Keynes services to run via Old Oak Common. 9. Regarding a possible “Hounslow to Hendon” Overground service, would this call at Old Oak (and how)? What stations are feasible in Brent? As part of a new interchange at Old Oak Common, running London Overground services along the Dudding Hill Line, via Old Oak Common could be considered, although these services might have to reverse at Old Oak Common for this to be possible. 10. Is Overground being considered because light-rail on the Dudding Hill Line is too difficult to mix with freight? Overground services on the Dudding Hill line are being considered because, given the other London Overground services in the area, extending the London Overground network is likely to be more cost-effective than providing a new light rail network. It is essential that the ability for freight trains to use the Dudding Hill line is retained. It may be possible to develop a scheme where light rail services can operate alongside freight trains, but operating London Overground services over the Dudding Hill line is likely to be a simpler way of providing improved connectivity between Brent Cross and Old Oak Common. (The minor difference from previous TfL maps is that the Southern trains are now also shown running via OOC.)

January 13th, 2012, 05:34 PM	#43
cle Registered User Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 2,986 Likes (Received): 35	Could Southern trains from Gatwick, EC, CJ and Shepherds Bush run on to Heathrow? Surely that would be hugely popular.

January 14th, 2012, 01:01 AM	#47
stephen_c Registered User Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: London Posts: 109 Likes (Received): 2	TfL comments appear to come from this Local Councillor blog - http://barnhill-newdawn.blogspot.com...-querries.html This scheme looks a lot better than the first version, where IIRC the Overground station was to be South of the GWML. Its just possible that OOC may yet drive a good interchange in the area, but there is still no connection to the Central (or Bakerloo, but thats less important with the Overground link)

January 14th, 2012, 03:50 PM	#48
Jon10 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1,288 Likes (Received): 32	It is presumably, and regretfully, impossible to raise the capital for a six-track railway. If Hammersmith & Fulham pursue their light-rail efforts at OOC, this would throw a bone to Kensington & Chelsea, at Kensal futher east. It looks like at least a single light-rail track could even stretch to Westbourne Park (H&C, Circle Line) station, where there was a GW station as well, until ?the early 1990s.

January 14th, 2012, 10:38 PM	#49
mr_jrt Registered User Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 880 Likes (Received): 0	The ironic thing is that the railway is 8 track until OOC, then an easy 5-track to airport junction aside from Ealing Broadway. IMHO, 6 would be easy along that same stretch aside from Ealing Broadway, again. It's a shame Crossrail isn't doing a more comprehensive rebuild of the station to fix these problems (and perhaps enable the Central/District to run through to the Greenford branch....

January 14th, 2012, 11:14 PM	#50
dadge Registered User Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 1 Likes (Received): 0	FWIW, this was part of what I sent in during the public consultation: Names: Old Oak Common station should be called (London) Acton HST or (London) Acton Wells HST. (The station site is in Acton and will probably incorporate a moved Acton North tube station, which should also be renamed.) The name Old Oak Common is too quaint and obscure. Route: Given that the section into Euston may be shelved or delayed, the design should allow for Paddington to be a temporary terminus for some or all of the services, and for a loop line on the Old Oak Common site to allow a temporary connection with HS1. I recommend that if HS2 isn't going to connect directly with Heathrow, the Central Line should be linked to the Piccadilly Line via a new tunnel in Acton to provide an express tube link to Heathrow.

January 15th, 2012, 12:37 AM	#51
Irish Blood English Heart Letting off the happiness Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Wherever I lay my hat Posts: 4,282 Likes (Received): 34	That Crossrail depot is huge & is going to use up a lot of space that I thought was planned for offices and housing as part of plans for a new CBD.

January 15th, 2012, 04:24 PM	#53
OperateOnMe Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Greater Birmingham (London) Posts: 663 Likes (Received): 4	Hello Can someone explain HS2 connections to HS1 in London please I understand these are some of the the possibilities (why not route via a re-organised waterloo?) 1. HS2-OOC-Euton-Stratford-HS1 (preferred) 2. HS2-Euston/SP-Stratford-HS1 3. HS2-OOC-Waterloo-HS1 4. HS2-Heathrow-Euston-HS1 ....

January 15th, 2012, 04:28 PM	#54
Jon10 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1,288 Likes (Received): 32	There is a third, central tunnel, east from Old Oak Common station. But instead of coming to the surface at Primrose Hill, and taking over the southern-most of the four possible tracks through Camden Road station, it seems more likely it will now stay underground, and emerge further east, to join the start of the HS1 tunnel. But of course, that would cost more.

January 16th, 2012, 05:42 AM	#56
Tallsmurf Registered User Join Date: May 2006 Location: Abu Dhabi Posts: 380 Likes (Received): 1	I would imagine the best solutions would be: HS2 - OOC - Euston HS1 - St Pancras (not stopping at Stratford) HS2 - OOC - Stratford - HS1 (ie through trains not stopping at Euston or St Pancras)