OCCUPY MIAMI

[thetallerthebetter]

Yes it looks ridiculous but its a clever way to defeat an anti voice amplification ordinance...

Yes young idealists are easy to ridicule and they have been defeated and co-opted in the past but now we are seeing something new and beautiful across the world. We are seeing Revolution 2.0, people driven social change in the post internet era. I wouldn't count them out just yet, the force of Steve Jobs is with them and the force is strong.

"Sad are those bitter souls that no longer see the beauty and social value of idealism." Me

[Hia-leah JDM]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mlpa/62...@N24/lightbox/

[thetallerthebetter]

Hey that's my friend peter filming, pull the shorts up Pete!

[casamagda]

Originally Posted by thetallerthebetter

I wouldn't count them out just yet, the force of Steve Jobs is with them and the force is strong.

Steve Jobs, the founder of the Corporation NYSE ticker symbol AAPL? The NYSE on Wall Street.

We come to you at a time when Steve Jobs and Apple, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments.

Steve Jobs has created a lot of jobs and opportunity, and made life better for millions. It is great to see him inspire so many.

[CalleOchoGringo]

Originally Posted by 1772

Hey numnut, I posted this in the Occupy thread in the North American Sky Bar section, calling the liberal crowd out on it!
Some of them ignore the amount of hatred on these protests.

So the joke is on you stupid.

Me pointing out that multiculturalism dosen't work and that white people sometimes are targeted without the same criticism as minorities get when they experience the same thing does NOT make me racist, you little piece of sh*t.


I bet you laughed at that Susan Sarandon-remark as well that the pope is a nazi?

LOL! WOW, I pushed someone's button didn't I!
Ok 1772 I'll admit it was a bit rude of me to call you out like that, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Go ahead and explain to me how the following quote is not racist:

Originally Posted by 1772

I might add that "being cosmopolitan" isn't in itself a good thing.
It depends puerly on what it consists of.

Hong Kong is a good example of a cosmopolitan city with east asians and europeans.
Berlin is a bad example since it consists of middle eastern, african and eastern europeans.

How is that statement anything BUT a direct insinuation that East Asians and "Europeans" (I guess you meant Western) are in some way superior than Middle Eastern, African, and Eastern Europeans. How would you feel if you were among those ethnic groups and someone on a forum made that statement? I'm interested in your response.

[spellbound]

Going to try and stop by on Saturday. If I can figure out how to post phone pics here (don't laugh at the elderly) I will.

[UMdev]

Originally Posted by CalleOchoGringo

How is that statement anything BUT a direct insinuation that East Asians and "Europeans" (I guess you meant Western) are in some way superior than Middle Eastern, African, and Eastern Europeans. How would you feel if you were among those ethnic groups and someone on a forum made that statement? I'm interested in your response.

Interestingly enough I think that ofter people like to mix socioeconomic issues and race. While culture does play a role in the way people act I think that most of the qualities that people like 1772 don't like has more to do with the socioeconomic status.

I'm sure 1772 would prefer a "cosmopolitan" city made up of wealthy middle eastern, african and eastern europeans than he would one made up of poor people from east asian and europeans.

I think african americans get the same bad rap here in america. Just taking a quick look at median household income there are 17,000 white households in the bottom fifth and 4,500 black households. But those 4,500 black households make up about a third of all black households while the 17,000 white households makes up less than 20%. And then while households are pretty much evenly distributed almost 60% of black households are in the lower 40% of households which is considered less that middle class (working poor and poor).

So if you run into a black person there is pretty much a 60% chance they are below the middle class. So then people attribute the actions of these people to their culture when most of their actions are governed by the fact that they're poor. These people mostly act no different than the white people in the same socioeconomic conditions. But because there are a lot more white people who aren't poor we don't attribute their actions to the whole ethnicity. You hear comments like "white trash" which allows the rest of white people to distance themselves. Which is odd because as I pointed out before there are more poor white people due to the fact that there are simply a lot more white people in general. And when you look at the top 20% of households only 236 or about 1% of black households fall into the group. These households have nothing in common with the bottom 20% just like the top white households have nothing in common with the bottom households.

[PeterSmith]

Originally Posted by spellbound

Going to try and stop by on Saturday. If I can figure out how to post phone pics here (don't laugh at the elderly) I will.

There are plenty of unemployed, tech-savvy youth at the rally who can help you with that.

[CalleOchoGringo]

Originally Posted by UMdev

Interestingly enough I think that ofter people like to mix socioeconomic issues and race. While culture does play a role in the way people act I think that most of the qualities that people like 1772 don't like has more to do with the socioeconomic status.

I'm sure 1772 would prefer a "cosmopolitan" city made up of wealthy middle eastern, african and eastern europeans than he would one made up of poor people from east asian and europeans.

I totally agree! But he (1772) needs to be VERY careful how he says what he does so as to not be misunderstood. He needs to use words like "poor and unsophisticated" rather than "Middle Easterners and Eastern Europeans".

It's a VERY slippery slow when you start using ethnicities in place of socioeconomic class words, even if you truly didn't mean it. Many a politician have lost entire election campaigns on tiny slip-ups like that.

God knows history is way too full of people who did mean it! And with all this mud slinging going on in Europe over the Northern Scandinavian/Germanic Europeans not wanting to be the "Sugardaddy's" bailing out the spendthrift Southern Europeans, their's plenty of ethnic tension already being added to that. Not to mention the French kicking out the "Roma Gypsies" from France too (the supposed liberal bastion that it is).

[QuantumX]

Originally Posted by CalleOchoGringo

I totally agree! But he (1772) needs to be VERY careful how he says what he does so as to not be misunderstood. He needs to use words like "poor and unsophisticated" rather than "Middle Easterners and Eastern Europeans".

It's a VERY slippery slow when you start using ethnicities in place of socioeconomic class words, even if you truly didn't mean it. Many a politician have lost entire election campaigns on tiny slip-ups like that.

God knows history is way too full of people who did mean it!

I've come to understand this about 1772. I think if he were really racist, he'd be long gone by now, the way I noticed a drop-off in traffic in the Miami forum right after Obama was elected, as if certain people wouldn't have been able to hide their racism. There are certain former forumers that I'm glad left and never came back. It was reduced traffic on this web site that I was glad to see. A couple of forumers have accused me of driving people away from the Miami forum, but if those people were racist, that's fine by me.

[casamagda]

Originally Posted by spellbound

Going to try and stop by on Saturday. If I can figure out how to post phone pics here (don't laugh at the elderly) I will.

If you make it there, run accross the street real quick and take a look at the Main Library.
It is a beautiful building, but you will notice, it is not well attended.
Check out the people on the dozens of computers, and make sure to visit the men's room.
This comment might be a bit off topic, but this downtown library is unlike most in big downtowns, you should see it for yourself.

[casamagda]

Originally Posted by spellbound

I stopped by Occupy Philly last week and almost immediately ran into an extremely successful restauranteur and his wife (worth WELL into the multi-millions) who are casual acquaintances and were there for the same reason as others.

I'm sure you a good guy and a good judge of character, so there is no doubt that if you felt these restaurateurs were good people, then I would trust that.

They are probably good people, and they probably employ people, and create lots of value to the community. I'd bet a dinner for two in their restaurant, that they are incorporated.
The restaurateur is a corporation. (perhaps and S, or a C, or a LLC, but a corporation).
It is sad that some people would protest corporations. I wish those some people enough success that they get the knowledge to understand.

There are many valid and reasonable things to protest and to disagree with in this society, but to make blanket statements like the ones referenced below are unfortunate.

Originally Posted by thetallerthebetter

As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; that a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power. We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments.

[PeterSmith]

Point taken, but it should be noted that saying corporations place profit over people is a fair blanket statement. In fact, it's the law. Corporations are not permitted to place people over profits per Dodge v. Ford Motor Co. in 1919. That's not to say corporations can't be compassionate, but as long as they have shareholders, their duty to maximize profits cannot be impeded by any other motive. I think it's a fair value to protest, but it's also not changing anytime soon.

[theEmbarcadero]

Originally Posted by casamagda

I'm sure you a good guy and a good judge of character, so there is no doubt that if you felt these restaurateurs were good people, then I would trust that.

They are probably good people, and they probably employ people, and create lots of value to the community. I'd bet a dinner for two in their restaurant, that they are incorporated.
The restaurateur is a corporation. (perhaps and S, or a C, or a LLC, but a corporation).
It is sad that some people would protest corporations. I wish those some people enough success that they get the knowledge to understand.

There are many valid and reasonable things to protest and to disagree with in this society, but to make blanket statements like the ones referenced below are unfortunate.

In spellbound I trust....and you can too, casamagda...he is a man of wit, inteligence and character....!!

[casamagda]

Originally Posted by PeterSmith

Point taken, but it should be noted that saying corporations place profit over people is a fair blanket statement. In fact, it's the law. Corporations are not permitted to place people over profits per Dodge v. Ford Motor Co. in 1919. That's not to say corporations can't be compassionate, but as long as they have shareholders, their duty to maximize profits cannot be impeded by any other motive. I think it's a fair value to protest, but it's also not changing anytime soon.

Corporations like Spell's friends and Steve Jobs corporations focus on serving consumers.
In a free market, corporations must serve people or they die.

When people or corporations compromise politicians to stack the rules against the free market, then the corporation ceases to serve the consumer...it becomes self serving.

Therefore, I do not find any point in protesting against Steve Jobs or Spell's friends, or corporations in general. IF the point is to protest unfairness, the protestor should make their point in Washington DC, or better yet, the ballot box.

[spellbound]

Spell's 'friends' are casual acquaintances, as I said. We know each other in passing, not as buddies. The point being made was simply that some of these fast and easy cliched versions of who is out there at these protests is quite simplistic and uninformed. I think one way people attempt to denigrate a movement is by painting its members in broad strokes. Certainly, it's done in regards to the Tea Party by some on the left. No different with this, but the reality is that you have people from a wide variety of backgrounds and not everyone shares a monolithic political view either. If you believe they do, you are uninformed.

By the way, this same restauranteur has outposts of his Philly-based dining empire in Bal Harbor and Ft. Lauderdale as well---you can probably figure out who.

As for visiting the library, been there as recently as 5 or 6 months ago. It's woefully underutilized, agreed. And at taxpayer expense. Then again, seeing those Arsht Center numbers (also taxpayer financed) leads me to think maybe both can be sold to Genting for some kind of further casino/entertainment/aquatic extravaganza thingy. I have to be downtown again on Monday to meet with some commissioners and mucky mucks to (finally!) resolve our lease issues at Haulover, and will bring up this bold plan of action.

[spellbound]

Originally Posted by theEmbarcadero

In spellbound I trust....and you can too, casamagda...he is a man of wit, inteligence and character....!!

You forgot the animal magnetism part, but that's OK.

[Endeavor305]

I think good points are brought up by both sides, spellbound and casamagda. Yes corporations are meant to serve people. If people feel the corporations are putting their profits over them (in an unjustly manner) then they should protest. There are many forms of protesting. They can gather in public or they can stop buying their product or service. They can also make their voices heard at the ballot box towards the politicians who assist in aiding the corporations put the profits unjustly before the people they are supposed to represent. And people do once the word gets around. And the word always gets around.

The beauty of any society or market is that it naturally sorts itself out. Free societies do so with less resistance from the top and are therefore speedier, but every society at some point fixes itself. And this 'fixing itself' process is never ending. Look no further than the changes we've seen in the arab world this past year or two. This is why I have no issue with organized and civil protesting. I even have no problem with uncivil protesting if the issue/injustice merits it, but this is an extreme case of which we have not seen in this country within our lifetime. Therefore I view protesting as a natural process. It's a way of getting the word out. I think we're seeing these protests now because greed (at the highest levels) has gotten out of control, is out of control and has been out of control.

So yes there are some changes that need to be made to fix government and large corporation interactions; and also those that stand to benefit on wall street from some of those interactions. They should clearly define the laws on lobbying and on market manipulation and such. Then enforce those laws heavily. My solution is make the punishment not worth doing the crime. As much greed as some of these heads of corporations, traders and politicians have, I'm sure some will at least think twice about doing something in their best interest that conflicts with the best interests of the country and its people. Put'em away in jail for life. Sure this won't stop everyone but it will improve things from what they are now. BTW, does anyone think Bernie Madoff should be living well in prison?

Don't know if anyone saw in the news last week that an inside trader recieved a record sentence: http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2011/10...ecord_for.html

He was found to blatantly be trading with information unavailable to the public. This type of trading indirectly, but essentially, assists in taking the peoples money that they invested with a company. Millions of dollars plundered all for his greedy fat ass. Maybe his sentence was made into an example in the light of the protests down the street, but I still think he should of gotten more than 11 years. And that's the record. Anyhow, at least it's a step in the right direction.

[CalleOchoGringo]

Raj Rajaratnam got 11 years because the judge took his advanced diabetes into account when delivering the sentencing. He will be dead before the term is up so giving him more would hardly matter.


Personally I think the penalty for most of these white collar crimes is the loss of the their fortunes. Money is what they worship, so take away what they care for most.

[casamagda]

Originally Posted by spellbound

Spell's 'friends' are casual acquaintances, as I said. We know each other in passing, not as buddies. The point being made was simply that some of these fast and easy cliched versions of who is out there at these protests is quite simplistic and uninformed.

Fair enough.
You would never hear me paint the Occupy Wall Street people as racists or jobless unless I saw it with my own eyes. What I saw with my own eyes was a lack of a cohesive message. So you were directing that elsewhere, fine.

Someone posted a manifesto from a Canadian occupy website that seemed to rail against corporations.
My point, you can agree or disagree, is that corporations should not be universally demonized or targeted.
Your restaurateur acquaintances are perfect examples to my point, as is Steve Jobs, as is my sister, my boss, many of my friends, etc etc etc.

Originally Posted by spellbound

As for visiting the library, been there as recently as 5 or 6 months ago. It's woefully underutilized, agreed.

Yes, it is. And, if as supporters/defenders say, "it supports the poor who do not have Internet access", then that function should not be located in the CBD in a monster sized nearly empty facility, the main library should be re purposed and other facilities should serve that function.

Then again, seeing those Arsht Center numbers (also taxpayer financed)[/quote]There is no equivalence, and barely a comparison.
The Adriene Arsht Center's numbers are terrific. The AACPA is in the black and got there faster than the Kennedy Center or the Lincoln Center. It is in a great location, serves the public on many different levels.
But, this discussion is for a different thread.