Where next for Leeds on transport?

[LNGCats]

Originally Posted by THEONETHATLEEDS

Give Yorkshire all the tax the government gets from fuel and road tax and then we would be able to sort the situation out very quickly.

or you could join us in the real world and we could discuss realistic options that are available to the PTE and why they decide what they do.

[CharlieP]

Originally Posted by yorkshireriderleeds

It`s worth bearing in mind Leeds inner ring road will need to close by 2014 for a major rebuild, without decent alternatives Leeds could grind to a halt!

I hadn't heard anything about this - can you give any more details?

[THEONETHATLEEDS]

Originally Posted by LNGCats

or you could join us in the real world and we could discuss realistic options that are available to the PTE and why they decide what they do.

Im all ears LNGCats tell me your proposal please. i have not heard any thing from you yet?

And what a great response to the facts that Yorkshire receives less per head of population of government funding for public transport, a load a BS about local levies ect.... its you and people like you who are happy to sit hear defending a government that has totally been taking the piss out of the rest of the country when it comes to public transport. The facts are that London receives £800 per head and Yorkshire is £272 how is that fair we all pay road tax and fill our cars with 60% tax levie fuel dont we and most of it goes to London fact fact

[LNGCats]

We are not talking about changing any policy rather trying to understand them.

You are clearly not trying to understand why things are as they are.

BTW what is the transport spend in Cornwall?

[Shiny_Dave]

Originally Posted by Leeds No.1

LCR is increasingly monocentric. The urban area will never reflect this because the greenbelt artificially stops this happening, but economically there is a clear hub in Leeds, with surrounding towns and cities playing only secondary roles in the City Region.

This is backed up by transport. You can get from anywhere in the City Region to Leeds relatively quickly. It's the centre of the rail network, and centre of the regional bus network. To travel between points in the City Region that don't include travel through Zone 1 though is a nightmare in most cases.

A few expensive schemes could sort this out; Bradford Crossrail, doubling of the curve at Pontefract linking the Dearne Valley line, an airport rail link linking the Harrogate and Wharfedale Lines, and doubling of the Harrogate Line between Knaresborough and York.

Having said that, I'm not sure how necessary they are though. Is commuting between places in the City Region that avoids Zone 1 really that high? Obviously people commute into places like Huddersfield, Bradford, Harrogate, York etc within a limited local reach, but between those places? I'd suggest Huddersfield - Halifax - Bradford is the strongest corridor in the City Region outside Zone 1, but Harrogate - York for example is so weak it can't even sustain a 2-hourly bus service and hourly train. Compare that to buses every 15 minutes to Leeds, and trains every half hour (every 15 mins at peak time).

Hi No.1, LNG

Couple of points. LCR may be monocentric with regards to economic power but it is still polycentric with regards to leisure, tourism etc. Nb York dwarfs Leeds for tourism; Harrogate is the conference venue for the region, etc. In addition, cities themselves are polycentric with business and retail parks outside the traditional CBD.

City boundaries have spread over the last 50 years with the rise of the suburbs. It doesnt matter that Leeds has great links with other cities if it takes the commuter 40 minutes to get into the centre. Therefore, there does need to be a move away from the traditional hub and spoke approach to public transport if it is to compete with the convenience of the car. This is highly pertinent to LCR due to its polycentric nature.

Another point is latent demand. This is specifically related to Bradford. It is a nightmare city to get to by road or public transport from most principal places in LCR. This has had obvious effects economically on business, retail and leisure. It also has issues with internal public transport. Over 90% of people at the place I work in Bradford commute by car. Ps I commute there by PT from Leeds which can be sublime (1hr) or ridiculous (2.5hrs)!!

[riclam]

Metro WYPTE are utterly hopeless, obsessed with image!

NGT could happended twenty years had Yorkshire Rider and Metro not decided modern buses were comparable to trolleybuses....Funding was allowed by the government for the trolleybus scheme but it was dropped by Metro.

[Aaronj09]

It's never taken me that long to get into the centre of Leeds, though rush our is pretty bad, as it is in London.. their tube doesn't seem to relieve congestion on roads.

[LNGCats]

Originally Posted by Aaronj09

their tube doesn't seem to relieve congestion on roads.

That is because public transport doesn't relive congestion.

[Aaronj09]

Originally Posted by LNGCats

That is because public transport doesn't relive congestion.

Then what difference would it make, having NGT or Supertram.

[LNGCats]

Originally Posted by Aaronj09

Then what difference would it make, having NGT or Supertram.

It creates extra capacity.

[Aaronj09]

But has little benefits, if Leeds will still be as congested as it ever was.. maybe we should just keep improving our roads.

[Shiny_Dave]

LNG are you an operational researcher per chance?

Aaron, it does and it doesn't. Essentially improved public transport can lead to less people using cars. However, that displacement would most likely lead to an opportunity for others to exploit thus resulting in congestion. This would likely happen at once so you would not actually see any benefit.

It's typical of any system that involves life forms. I remember sat in a management science lecture at uni whereby our tutor explained how increased private healthcare coverage led, with no change in capacity, to longer waiting lists in the NHS?!?!?

[LNGCats]

If capacity on corridors starts to restrain economic growth then high quality transport alternatives that create additional capacity are worth investing in, otherwise forget it, they will not happen in the UK.

If the planned high quality transport is for corridors that are not experiencing capacity constraints that are harming economic growth there is naff all hope of them being funded.

Quite rightly.

[LNGCats]

Originally Posted by Shiny_Dave

LNG are you an operational researcher per chance?

Aaron, it does and it doesn't. Essentially improved public transport can lead to less people using cars. However, that displacement would most likely lead to an opportunity for others to exploit thus resulting in congestion. This would likely happen at once so you would not actually see any benefit.

It's typical of any system that involves life forms. I remember sat in a management science lecture at uni whereby our tutor explained how increased private healthcare coverage led, with no change in capacity, to longer waiting lists in the NHS?!?!?

Which is what I said.

Public transport only increase capacity, it does not reduce it at all.

If no routes are in a position whereby they will not automatically re-fill with cars then they are not busy enough to justify high quality public transport in the first place.

[Shiny_Dave]

Originally Posted by Aaronj09

But has little benefits, if Leeds will still be as congested as it ever was.. maybe we should just keep improving our roads.

That's the worst thing you can do unfortunately. Continually finding alternative methods is the best solution. Increasing road capacity is only done because of people pressure on politicians.

[Shiny_Dave]

I'm a slow typer. Was responding to post 68!

[cmj]

Originally Posted by Aaronj09

It's never taken me that long to get into the centre of Leeds, though rush our is pretty bad, as it is in London.. their tube doesn't seem to relieve congestion on roads.

Otley road is bad most of the time and gets much worse at rush hour. There are plenty of buses but they get stuck in the traffic too.

[spacemansam]

I can't see how the trolleybus will be of benefit on otley road as there seems to be no room to widen the road to enable extra lanes for it.

[THEONETHATLEEDS]

Originally Posted by spacemansam

I can't see how the trolleybus will be of benefit on otley road as there seems to be no room to widen the road to enable extra lanes for it.

It won't Tbus will only add to the traffic problems in Leeds, and will be a waste of money that could be spent on a project taking commuters off the roads, e.g. increased local train network with an underground section in the city center. This is viable not the silly Tbus nonsense, the government should be ashamed of the situation in Leeds but its just not on the agenda of any politician because of all the tax they receive from fuel duty, and the fact they are in bed with Shell and BP, and have been for generations...... IMHO.

[THEONETHATLEEDS]

Originally Posted by LNGCats

We are not talking about changing any policy rather trying to understand them.

You are clearly not trying to understand why things are as they are.

BTW what is the transport spend in Cornwall?

So again not one suggestion from you LGNCats what a supprise???????

What has Cornwall got to do with anything we are discussing ???????