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Old March 5th, 2011, 12:24 AM   #221
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These were taken by me, interior can be seen here .-)
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Old June 6th, 2011, 11:23 PM   #222
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When metro will be run on Asian side, will it be fully underground & with 3rd rail like European side? Or different?
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Old June 8th, 2011, 07:23 PM   #223
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Recently I’ve confused between the tram-light rail-metro-suburban train terms in Istanbul.

www.lrta.org, wikipedia, www.urbanrail.net & www.subways.net all says that M1 and T4 are light rail, but official map is showing that M1 is also metro, and T4 is also tram. Also, some sites say that all suburban rail lines including future Marmaray will be converted to metro. I totally get confused.

Which definition is true? An urban rail fan of istanbul please clears this.

My opinion is –
1) T1 to T3 & T4 are true tram lines. T3 & T5 is heritage system, and T1 & T2 is modern system. T1 & T2 uses low floor vehicles, and run almost in street level with lower speed, although higher than T3 & T5. It even runs in some congested narrow streets.
2) M2 is the only true metro line. It uses broad stocks, runs fully underground with 3rd rail.
3) M1 and T4 is light rail. Those are heavier than tram, runs fully or reserved/elevated/underground track, use high floor vehicles and with high speed, although slower than M2.
4) Rest of the rail lines are suburban trains, because they uses overhead wire, completely different types of rolling stock than M2, and serves suburbs of Istanbul. The Marmaray will be also suburban rail, because it will connect both Asian & European sides train by an undersea tunnel, which will also use the same rolling stock is used now.

I’ve some questions (arose after viewing some websites). Please answer one by one –
1) Is there a plan to convert T4 line from light rail to tram in future?
2) Is now T1 & T2 running continuously?
3) When the construction of MODERN TRAMWAYS started, were the previous tram tracks (closed in sixties) discovered under the road surface in the time of digging?
4) Is there any remaining of previous tram network in Istanbul?
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Old June 9th, 2011, 05:29 PM   #224
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*Lots of questions, I will try to answer. *

www.lrta.org, wikipedia, www.urbanrail.net & www.subways.net all says that M1 and T4 are light rail, but official map is showing that M1 is also metro, and T4 is also tram. Also, some sites say that all suburban rail lines including future Marmaray will be converted to metro. I totally get confused.

*The operating company does not officially distinguish light rail systems, just trams, metros, suburban, and nostalgic tram.*

Which definition is true? An urban rail fan of istanbul please clears this.

My opinion is –
1) T1 to T3 & T4 are true tram lines. T3 & T5 is heritage system, and T1 & T2 is modern system. T1 & T2 uses low floor vehicles, and run almost in street level with lower speed, although higher than T3 & T5. It even runs in some congested narrow streets.
* Basically correct except for T4 and the last sentence. T1(and former T2) run almost completely on their own track separated from car traffic, but have level crossings. The problems of the congested narrow streets was solved a few years back.*
2) M2 is the only true metro line. It uses broad stocks, runs fully underground with 3rd rail.
* Correct until the Kadiköy line you mention above is in service, hopefully as of Dec. 31, 2011.*
3) M1 and T4 is light rail. Those are heavier than tram, runs fully or reserved/elevated/underground track, use high floor vehicles and with high speed, although slower than M2.
* M1 is light rail. It consists of tram carriages, but operates with about four of them per train. Electricity is per overhead wire, like with trams naturally. tracks are fully isolated from other traffic. As the systems are interoperable, out of service trams from T1 can be transported to their depot via M1 tracks.
The real problem to classify is T4. It runs tram carriages just in double traction, therefore is no longer than a tram, gets its electricity per overhead wire, and when operating above ground has level crossings and small tram-like platforms. However, about half the line and half the stations run underground on isolated track. I would tend to see it as a more sophisticated tram, as its capacity is no more than that, comparable to some tram lines in Vienna or Cologne, but some prefer to classify it as a very low capacity light metro because of its 50% underground track.*
4) Rest of the rail lines are suburban trains, because they uses overhead wire, completely different types of rolling stock than M2, and serves suburbs of Istanbul. The Marmaray will be also suburban rail, because it will connect both Asian & European sides train by an undersea tunnel, which will also use the same rolling stock is used now.
* Not the same rolling stock, but working to the same specifications, as you mentioned: overhead high-voltage wire, larger in size, etc. "Suburban train" (banliyö) sounds sleazy in Turkish, whereas "metro" sounds cooler, that is why Marmaray is advertised as the latter.

I’ve some questions (arose after viewing some websites). Please answer one by one –
1) Is there a plan to convert T4 line from light rail to tram in future?
* No, see above*
2) Is now T1 & T2 running continuously?
* yes, all the line is now known as T1*
3) When the construction of MODERN TRAMWAYS started, were the previous tram tracks (closed in sixties) discovered under the road surface in the time of digging?
* Oh come on, you have asked this question hundreds of times, and we have replied you hundreds of times, why do you keep forgetting? No, in Istanbul, people like to destroy history for good.*
4) Is there any remaining of previous tram network in Istanbul?
* See answer to number 3*
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Old June 9th, 2011, 05:37 PM   #225
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What are the consequences of the merge of T1 and T2? Are all the old former Cologne-trams now out of service? Are the frequencies higher now?

How many of the new tramway stock is now in service? I cannot find any videos of pictures of them in service.
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Old June 9th, 2011, 08:14 PM   #226
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We now have a mix of the standard blue trams, the new Alstoms and the Cologne vintage ones. Standard blue still dominates by far. This probably means there is a higher frequency, and this was promised upon the introduction of the Alstoms, but I believe it effects just parts of the line. As capacity at Kabatas is limited (only 2 trams can be at that final stop at one time, as it was not designed to be the final stop), I believe they still only depart every 5 minutes. There seem to be more trams which turn back at Eminönü, which used to only happen in rush hour before, bringing avarage intervals up to about 3 minutes between there and Ögrenci Yurdu. But I have not studied the schedules (the website of the operating company sXXXs), so these are just vague impressions.

PS The best map of Istanbul rail systems is the one available on wikipedia under the entry Istanbul public transport, rapid transit or other. It also correctly differentiates between the different forms of transport Ashis Mitra is concerned about. Thanks, Maximilian!
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Old June 10th, 2011, 05:27 PM   #227
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Old June 12th, 2011, 05:51 PM   #228
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Wow, great! Congratulations, dear students from Bogazici...!!! Istanbul is great city with great people…-
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Old June 12th, 2011, 10:34 PM   #229
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PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE OF YSTANBUL TRAM

I found that typing TRAMS IN ISTANBUL in wikipedia will show best articles about Istanbul’s previous tram network, heritage tram & modern tram details.
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Old June 12th, 2011, 10:38 PM   #230
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Thank you Baron Hirsch for trying to less my confusion.



By looking this map it creates quite confusion and questions.

1) I think Istanbul is the only city which has separate trams and separate metros. Eg. In future M4 and M5 will be constructed, but they will not be connected with M2 (although will be connected by light rail M3 and suburban rail B1).
2) This map says about future metro M6, but where is the M6? I can’t find!!
3) I heard also metro M7 is under construction, but where is the M7? I can’t find!!
4) Although the name is T4, but it is actually a light rail line like M1. I heard like T1 & T2, in future T4 will also use Citadis trams. Has T4 started using Citadis tram? If not then when?
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Old June 13th, 2011, 12:41 PM   #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashis Mitra View Post
1) I think Istanbul is the only city which has separate trams and separate metros. Eg. In future M4 and M5 will be constructed, but they will not be connected with M2 (although will be connected by light rail M3 and suburban rail B1).
2) This map says about future metro M6, but where is the M6? I can’t find!!
3) I heard also metro M7 is under construction, but where is the M7? I can’t find!!
4) Although the name is T4, but it is actually a light rail line like M1. I heard like T1 & T2, in future T4 will also use Citadis trams. Has T4 started using Citadis tram? If not then when?
1) Interconnections are naturally limited in a city with the sea in the middle and which is stretched over 100 kms from East to West. However, we have in the Turkish forum often complained about the lack of interoperability in Istanbul. As the sea is very deep, building tunnels underwater costs billions and takes a log time. Nonetheless, many of us were quite angry when the government announced it would build a tunnel for cars only (instead of, as originally intended, mixed cars and metro) in the precise location where M4 could have been extended to the European side to Yenikapi.
There are plans to extend both M2 and M5 to meet at Bakirköy-Incirli (presently only served by M1). However this is a long-term project.
2) M6 is a metro due to be built from the future Üsküdar station of Marmaray in a northeasterly direction. Maximilian had already put it on the map, as the tender was out and construction seemed iminent. However, the municipality decided it did not like the results of the tender and announced it would launch a new one, but until now did not. So Maximilian took it off the map again.
3) M7? Do not remember. Probably that refers to the Besiktas line (will start at Kabatas (T1), follow the Bosporus to the north, then circle inland to Sisli (M2), from where it will continue westwards to Mahmutbey (M5). It has been on the drawing board for years, but as the municipality prefers to invest its own funds into car tunnels and highways, no new metro construction has begun in this city since 2006.
4) T4, as I said, is more a hybrid between tram and light rail. It uses Rotem rolling stock, plus older material.
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Old June 13th, 2011, 01:22 PM   #232
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Had this map been posted already?



Gives a nice overview of proposed projects, some of which I think have been scrapped already.
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Old June 13th, 2011, 01:38 PM   #233
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The projects shown on the map are still all on the agenda somehow, although some of them have been changed in route, type of rail service or so. It is at any rate not very precise, unlike Maximilian's more recent maps, and the number system for non-existent (i.e. planned) lines has been changed. Remember the mayor still promises to bring the number of rail kilometers in this city up to some staggering 600 km in 2023, even though at his present rate of opening up two metro stations last year, one this year, he is more likely talking of the 2323.
The official map in the Istanbul metro now promises that M3, M4, and M5 will all open next year, 2012.
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Old June 16th, 2011, 12:35 AM   #234
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"

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Old June 16th, 2011, 07:02 AM   #235
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So then according to your map, the Marmaray project will host suburban commuter trains but not the metro. Is that correct?
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Old June 19th, 2011, 01:56 AM   #236
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Where is the Metrobus line on maps ?
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Old June 19th, 2011, 05:37 AM   #237
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Quote:
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So then according to your map, the Marmaray project will host suburban commuter trains but not the metro. Is that correct?
It will host suburban trains, but those suburban trains are metro-style. They have longitudinal seating and the such.
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Old June 19th, 2011, 02:28 PM   #238
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Old June 19th, 2011, 11:44 PM   #239
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COMBINATION OF OLD & NEW SYSTEM

Current route T3 (heritage) uses former route 10, 11, 12, 15, 16, 17 entirely or partly.

Current route T5 (heritage) uses former route 20 partly.

Current route T1 (modern) uses former route 12, 15, 16, 17, 22, 23, 24, 32, 33 and 34 from Kabatas to Topkapi.

How history repeats!!!

1) Route T3 entirely has same alignment with former track on Istikal Caddesi. Former alignment was double-track and shared with automobiles, but now it is mostly single track with crossovers & the street is only for walking & tram. No automobiles allowed.
2) Route T5 has almost half part common with former system on Bahariye Street. Formerly there was double track from Kadikoy to Moda, and trams ran up & down, but now the heritage tram moves as a single line continuous loop from Kadikoy to Kadikoy via Moda.
3) Route T1 has also almost half part common with former system. The former routes were fully unreserved, but the new route is mostly on reserved track including Galata Bridge.

So Galata Serai, Karakoy, Sirkeci, Bayazid, Aksaray, Altiyol etc. is now served again by tram!!! Ooooh, I just can’t imagine.

I’m also suggesting, new tramway should also run up to Sisli & Bebek.
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Old June 21st, 2011, 08:00 PM   #240
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Istanbul’s great tram network was closed in 1966 for some blunt reasons –

“The infrastructure and fleet of the systems that closed service in the 1960's were usually in very bad condition. So it was easier and cheaper for the companies to change to bus-service because the cities made the streets often completely new in these days because of the many new cars. They also thought that there is no place for trams on the streets anymore and that the old and slowly trams will disturb the car- and bus-traffic.”

If you see to many European cities, which is also very old, even older and congested than Istanbul, was prevented the world’s sixties trend to close tram networks. They patiently improved their infrastructure & fleets step by step, and imported sometimes foreign trams also. They gradually increased their network with both reserved and unreserved track. Istanbul could do that. By gradually improving rolling stocks looking those cities, they can maintain their network.

1) The advent of buses and large scale competition meant that buses often ran the same routes as the trams and would jump in front in order to "grab" customers.
Buses are still present in Istanbul, even much more than before. Aren’t they competing with tram now? If now tram can attract more people than bus, I think if Istanbul Transport Authority should be patient, trams would sure survived, even defeat bus. Actually they started following other cities for withdrawing tram during forties.

2) While buses were able to move into Istanbul's expanding hinterland quicker and at less cost that the trams.
Current tram network has expanded many long distances, like Baglicar, and the infrastructure is more expensive like bus (includes reserved track, masts, wires, stops, bridges etc.) But they are very popular for commuters than bus. If now they can re-make that costly infrastructure, why not past? Previous network was much ordinary than present. Actually they were lobbying the automobile industry, and the industry started marketing automobiles, like many cities around the world.

3) The belief that trams were outdated and old technology Meanwhile,
If tram is really outdated, why the transport authority returned it in Istanbul? It clearly shows that outdated technology idea was completely fake.

4) There was a belief that buses were cheaper to run than trams.
Although initial construction cost of tramway network is higher, but it is profitable for long term, because buses runs on diesel, which is being costly month by month over the world, and also decreasing from nature’s storage. Diesel can’t be made artificially, but electricity can make from various sources, like air, water, tide etc, so it is unlimited, and it is also pollution free.

5) The system was in a poor state of repair.
Many cities around the Europe, has maintained tram, struggling over World War 2, by investing seriously on track & rolling stocks. Even I live in Kolkata. India is poorer than Turkey, but my city has still a good tram network. When Istanbul closed their tram in 1966, Kolkata’s tram was its top state, both with income & service. So “impossible repairing” is just another lie.

6) The overcrowded and heaving trams running at a high frequency, in competition with growing private motor car and bus use, created congestion.
Buses are still present in Istanbul, even much more than before. Aren’t they competing with tram now? If now tram can attract more people than bus, I think if Istanbul Transport Authority should be patient, trams would sure survived, even defeat bus. It says that trams were overcrowded, it means were very popular among the citizens, and also ran on high frequency, means a reliable service. Actually they started following other cities for withdrawing tram during sixties.

7) Competition from the private car, private bus operators and the perception of traffic congestion led to the gradual closure of lines from the 1940s.
Despite the competition with automobile, they were very popular among citizens due to high frequency. Almost half part of the former network was on reserved track, which ensures no clash with cars & buses. At least they can maintain those routes, if the question of congestion arrives. Actually they were lobbying the automobile industry, and the industry started marketing automobiles, like many cities around the world.

8) Closure was supported by the authority, but generally went against public opinion.
It is very natural that ordinary people can’t be against with tram. Tram is pollution free, gentle and a status symbol of a civilized city. Even I live in Kolkata. India is poorer than Turkey, but my city has still a good tram network. When Istanbul closed their tram in 1966, Kolkata’s tram was its top state, both with income & service.

Istanbul’s previous tram survived from 1913 to 1966 and closed for those fake reasons. Tram reopened in 1992. So are we sure that around 2045, Istanbul will not again close its tram for some updated closure reasons?
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