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Old November 7th, 2011, 04:33 PM   #241
Londonladinleeds
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Yes we do......maybe too much!

£200 billion a year in welfare payments suggests so......
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Old November 7th, 2011, 04:35 PM   #242
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Great pics there 600West. Are there any more? Did you stay in Leeds for longer as Millenium Square, Park Square, Park Row, The Headrow and other areas of the city centre have plenty of stunning building, Granary Wharf also has some lovely canal areas, which you seem to love!

The Corn Exchange is a stunning building, I'm glad it seems to be getting more units opened.
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Old November 7th, 2011, 04:58 PM   #243
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Yes, in this report I have only reached the half way point of my trip. I was in the Leeds area two more full days and and a couple of half days. Plus Sheffield, York, and Durham. Lots more to come starting tonight (US east coast time).
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Old November 7th, 2011, 05:29 PM   #244
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LOL........you've got us all hanging on your every post!
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Old November 7th, 2011, 07:06 PM   #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joydivison82 View Post
Great pictures.

Going back to the hospital pictures, as you may have already guessed, the reason it looks so run down is that part of the building is in the process of being renovated, and the hospital is now in the brand new buildings behind it.

That is also just one of many hospitals in Manchester as I am sure you've also gathered.

We do have crime here in the UK, of course we do but I suspect it is generally less violent than it is in the US cities.

I also think a major different between the USA and UK culture is that in the USA there is probably a much bigger gap between the rich and poor. In the USA if you have a middle class income you would be rich by UK standards. Living in big houses, lots of cars etc.

However because the living costs are so high here even on a high income you can struggle to buy a terraced house in many parts of even Manchester.

However we really do look after our poor.
I think this is a pretty accurate assessment of the differences between the two countries and squares with what I saw.

I guess the question is which is preferable. That is subjective of course, but for myself I think I prefer the British system.
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Old November 7th, 2011, 07:08 PM   #246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chogmook View Post
It's look like you skirted the edge of Ancoats, but stayed the 'wrong' side of the retail park, alongside the Ashton Canal.

You missed out on these beauties (Royal & Murray's Mills) alongside the nearby Rochdale Canal:






But can I say, this thread is fantastic and the photos you have taken are outstanding and provide a wonderful showcase.
Uggh, can't believe I missed all that. Well actually I can. Manchester is big and spread out. Plus I was told Ancoats road was really long. But I didn't see anything more close to where I was and I really had to get on to Leeds.

Can you show me on a Google map exactly where that is? I would like to know where it is relative to where I was for future reference.

Thanks

Dan
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Old November 7th, 2011, 11:57 PM   #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 600West218 View Post
Yes, in this report I have only reached the half way point of my trip. I was in the Leeds area two more full days and and a couple of half days. Plus Sheffield, York, and Durham. Lots more to come starting tonight (US east coast time).
I didn't know you went to York and Durham as well, I'm very much looking forward to see them.
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Old November 8th, 2011, 12:57 AM   #248
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Those mills are on redhill street and Murray street, well that general area and front these streets. The terraces is off cornell street off oldham road and the big red brick building is actually a old council block built in the late Victorian/Edwardian period called Victoria flats.

Basically where you were was south of these buildings. If you walked a few hundred meters up great ancoats street you would see it. If you go on google map and follow the canal from pic station, you were on the branch going off to the right, the branch going to the left goes to these buildings. Also there's that big retail area which separates them, so is kind of like a barrier when you're on the road. ( someone can give link if you cant find it, my iPad doesn't seem to want to us google map on browser -_-) but if you zoom out a bit you can see that all that separated you from the, was the retail area.

Edit::

Here's a map taken from the Manchester history site I gave you in the self tours section 12 ( http://manchesterhistory.net/manches...ourtwelve.html ) you were on the bottom right and can see the retail complex separates you from the mills. Which are numbers 28, the terraces 13 and the Victoria flats 14 and the church 17. As you can see, clicking on the names can give you info on the site/buildings. Hopes its if use for you

Last edited by chase_me; November 8th, 2011 at 01:09 AM.
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Old November 8th, 2011, 05:15 AM   #249
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The next day, Sunday, was a day I had really looked forward to, even when planning the trip. I was scheduled to go to the National Coal Mining Museum of England outside of Leeds. I was filled with anticipation.

First though I had to get to the Leeds train station and that would neccesitate over a mile and a half walk.

Attigan Road near where the B&B was:

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This was an old home also now used as a Bed and Breakfast:

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Before making it too far it quickly became a pretty working class area:

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For about ¾ of a mile it was endless row houses.

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A fairly new looking mosque.

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While this may not look like the greatest area, and probably wasn’t, I never once saw an abandoned building or vacant lots - something you see all over most American cities.

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Note this is also close to the University of Leeds and most of the time I saw students going in and out of these residences.

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Part of the university.

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It is really interesting the way the doors can make the building in the same way a tie can make the suit.

Wow, an absolutely spectactular building - I guess it must be the town hall! (the low lighting of the picture sucks but later I should have better pictures of it.)

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As it was a very early Sunday morning everyone was sleeping, as you can see by the empty streets. And as I myself had spent Saturday night on Greek Street I knew why they were still sleeping.

Finally, I got to the train station and promptly took a train to Wakefield. From there I would get a bus that would take me to the mining museum which was sort of in the middle of no where.

When I arrived in Wakefield I had to walk most of the length of the town to get from the train station to the bus station

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Even a small place like Wakefield is interesting.

One thing that struck me was how expensive real estate was in England. This is a small town yet the prices are sky high - and from what I could see salaries weren’t that high.

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These are $300,000 and $400,000 homes.

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Still not cheap and Wakefield wasn’t all that big. Not sure what makes the prices so high.

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A rather large facility for some sort of produce market. Wasn’t open on a Sunday morning.

The bus station:

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Interestingly big bus station for a town of maybe 50,000 people. I grew up in a metro area of 1 million people and it didn’t have a bus station nearly as big as this.

Note also they have signs listing when different buses will arrive and depart. Amazingly well organized.

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Unfortuantely I only got this quick snapshot of the suburban type houses there:

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Then it was on to rolling hills and farmers fields:

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Not sure what they were growing so late in the growing season.

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Interesting how there is a marked public path through some farmers field.

Arriving at the mine museum:

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An old coal hualing train:

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This picture shows a “pit pony” which is a small horse that was used to haul coal out of mines. They not only worked in mines but would effectively live in the mines. Mines were certainly miserable places - for humans and animals alike.

The principal attraction of the mine museum is you get to go down into an actual mine. Unfortunately, they don’t allow you to take any electronics into the mine so there are no pictures to be had (and of course the light was minimal anyways). So I”ll just have to describe it a bit.

You go down by elevator about 1,500 feet underground. They actually give you are miners helmet to wear and a special miners lamp to use. The tour is an hour and a half and they take you a pretty good distance around numerous shafts. They have exhibits underground that show how mines worked in the early days and then they show you progressively new technology all the way up to modern times. The guide was excellent, though with a very strong accent, and particularly good with children. It was a good thing they give you a hard hat as even though I was careful I hit my head on beams twice. Suffice it to say I highly recommend this museum and tour.

Finally, when we came up out of the mine I was able to speak to a present day miner. Apparently, there are only 1,500 miners left in England, an amazing statistic. Pretty much all the mines were shut down in the years following the huge confrontation between Thatcher and the miners in the mid 80s. This in spite of the fact according to some people England still has about 300 years worth of coal left underground.

According to the miner the unions demands in the confrontation with Thatcher were excessive. When I asked how there could be so few miners left he said it was largely due to the excesses of the unions. When I pressed him on that, pointing out that Germany and the United States still have lots of coal mining and their miners are unionized, he responded “their unions aren’t like are unions”. Certainly an interesting perspective.

On top there were several buildings with very good exhibits so you actually spend at least two hours on the top seeing things.

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That doesn’t look like fun.

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A double decker elevator cab which are commonly used in mines.


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These winches were actually powered for many years by steam engines, one of which I saw here and it was all ready for action (though I didn’t get to see it in action myself).

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You can’t note it from static pictures but this thing was quite warm, giving off some steam, and really smelled like a greased up and fired up steam engine. Not sure if it ran before I saw it or after I saw it but this was no museum piece, this was a working enginre.

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The boilers.

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The people in that picture would have been just returning from the mine, I believe.

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Note the two green shoots going right into the furnace. They kept it constantly supplied with coal.

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They also had some draft animals there. This is a clydesdale, which I was told is a bread from Scotland.

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Then I went in to see the locker rooms and shower area that had been used by the miners.

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The soap store:

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You’ve heard of “canaries in the coal mine”? Here it is.

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After finishing up at the museum, and having my very own piece of English coal from the bottom of the mine, I headed back up to the main road to await the bus.

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The country road outside the pub that is also where the bus stop is:

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There seemed to be planes and contrails from planes everywhere. The skies of England are crowded.

With that I went into town, ate, and went back to Leeds to sleep. By the time I got into Wakefield the sun was down so there were no more pictures to be taken.

But the next day would be another great day for exploring and taking pictures as I again travelled outside Leeds, to Saltaire.
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Old November 8th, 2011, 05:29 AM   #250
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Compared to New York prices, those houses are not expensive!

I live a couple of blocks from Wakefield, MA and used to lived in Crofton, MD ---so seeing these pictures and adverts for houses in the original Wakefield & Crofton really caught my attention. I knew those towns existed, but have never seen anything about them before.
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Old November 8th, 2011, 05:57 AM   #251
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Yes, they are not as expensive as NYC, but NYC is a huge city and one of the most expensive cities in the US.

Wakefield is a small city outside a mid sized city. It't not clear to me why it should be so expensive unless the zoning limits new construction so existing homes become more expensive. I believe these homes would be well out of the price range of most of the British people.
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Old November 8th, 2011, 10:14 AM   #252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 600West218 View Post
Yes, they are not as expensive as NYC, but NYC is a huge city and one of the most expensive cities in the US.

Wakefield is a small city outside a mid sized city. It't not clear to me why it should be so expensive unless the zoning limits new construction so existing homes become more expensive. I believe these homes would be well out of the price range of most of the British people.
Unfortunately these are around average for alot of the UK. And depending where you grew up they seem good value for money, the mediocre 2 bed bungalow near me sold for £500,000
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Old November 8th, 2011, 11:08 AM   #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 600West218
Yes, they are not as expensive as NYC, but NYC is a huge city and one of the most expensive cities in the US.

Wakefield is a small city outside a mid sized city. It't not clear to me why it should be so expensive unless the zoning limits new construction so existing homes become more expensive. I believe these homes would be well out of the price range of most of the British people.
Average price of a home in the UK is around £160,000 ($255,000) and being a small city doesn't necessarily make homes cheaper as most places in the UK are commutable to bigger cities with more well-paid jobs anyway.

Housing is expensive and no doubt restrictions on building do play a part in that as does the loose credit of recent years.

Median full time salary in the UK is £26,000 ($42,000) so the average house costs almost 6x the average salary which is clearly a problem when banks will usually only lend 3-4x salary. Two average incomes are needed to buy all but the cheapest housing in most areas. Single people need to be in well over average incomes to buy anywhere.

On the plus side those building restrictions mean that homes and neighbourhoods are very rarely abandoned or left to decay which in turn means that old houses don't lose value very much, they often cost very nearly as much as new homes if not more. This does mean that parents and grandparents of the middle classes often have valuable assets to pass down which enables their children to buy more than their incomes alone would allow.

However if your parents rented their whole lives, are too young to start passing down equity or have blown all the equity on cruises it is a real struggle for many young people to buy anywhere. That isn't good for social mobility.

The owner-occupation rate peaked a decade ago at just over 70% and has since fallen to 67% as high prices have forced more young people to rent. It's expected to decline further.
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Old November 8th, 2011, 11:11 AM   #254
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I haven't been to that mining museum for years, I must go back someday. Regarding Bolton Steam Museum; it is a very interesting collection of engines, including a few old beam engines which would have powered early textile mills. It only runs maybe 4 weekends per year so you have to plan, visit www.nmes.org for details. Markham Grange Steam Museum near Doncaster is a similar concept with a spectacular old mill engine as its centrepiece, though there are many other such sites of interest around.

Regarding public footpaths, it's only recently that I worked out how unique they are. We have over 130,000 miles of them in England and Wales and many of these will run through farmland (you generally have a right to roam over moorland etc). Countryside access varies throughout Europe but I don't think anywhere else has such extensive rights of access to farmland. In Scotland you can go wherever you like, including farmers' fields as long as you avoid trampling the crops, but the relative lack of paths makes it harder to navigate. Northern Ireland sadly has rather limited access to countryside I believe.
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Old November 8th, 2011, 02:03 PM   #255
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ive thoroughly enjoyed this thread 10123!Thanks
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Old November 8th, 2011, 02:37 PM   #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 600West218 View Post
Apparently, there are only 1,500 miners left in England, an amazing statistic. Pretty much all the mines were shut down in the years following the huge confrontation between Thatcher and the miners in the mid 80s. This in spite of the fact according to some people England still has about 300 years worth of coal left underground.


The Governments argument was, that it was safer, cleaner and cheaper to import coal from other countries than it was to dig the stuff up in our own lands. With all of the deaths, law cases, illnesses, health and safety violations and the high wages that the Unions would demand from the government... If they didn't get their own way, they would strike.... and bring the nation to a costly standstill every time. Switching to using someone elses coal also meant that Britain wasn't completely depleting its own resources.

Back then, the Unions, not the Government had control of the nation. Thatcher took away their power which a lot of the time was counter productive to everyone else.

Thatcher did the right thing in my opinion, but there will no doubt be some people with a different opinion which they are welcome to.

On the flip side though, there were many things she did which with complete hindsight were probably not the best ideas... still, she was responsible for making the UK economy competitive and strong for the first time in a while, before that the UK was 'the sick man' of Europe and the US had Britain by the economic balls a la WW2 repayments... which they were very adamant about getting full return and then some on, while Germany had its huge debts to the US wiped out... ironic.

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Old November 8th, 2011, 02:43 PM   #257
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Mining had been in steep decline anyway for a couple of decades before that, the biggest job losses in the industry took place in the 70s I think, she just put the final nails in the coffin.

What could have been done better was managing the decline, retraining and investing in new replacement industries rather than just destroying communities entirely, we are still experiencing the social consequences of that nearly 3 decades on in some of these ex-mining areas.
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Old November 8th, 2011, 02:56 PM   #258
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I agree, there should have been some balance.

It is only in recent years, that the government has realised the value again in investing in industry. An economy cannot exit on the tertiary service sector alone... still, better late than never.
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Old November 8th, 2011, 04:06 PM   #259
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The museum looks very interesting. Shame it's not somewhere closer to the Wakefield or Leeds city centre. Great photos anyways
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Old November 8th, 2011, 04:35 PM   #260
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Quote:
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I agree, there should have been some balance.

It is only in recent years, that the government has realised the value again in investing in industry. An economy cannot exit on the tertiary service sector alone... still, better late than never.
When was that then?

Manufacturing declined faster and more extensively under Labour than under Thatcher! From 19% to 9% of GDP. So much for the evil Tories killing industry in this country!

We have high tech manufacturing now with telecoms, weapons, pharma, bio science etc all with world leading British firms present.

The bottom line is we cannot compete with the developing world in terms of cheap labour, and we shouldn't do so. The Knowledge Economy the government refers to is based on big spending on R&D and owning the intellectual property on things. Look at ARM who design computer chips but don't actually make them, and Apple.......every iPhone sold earns them $80 in royalties, and FOXCONN the Chinese firm who actually make the phone $8!!! What part of the value chain would you rather own??
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