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Old November 15th, 2011, 03:34 PM   #401
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Originally Posted by skymantle View Post
English has nothing to do with Italian? I don't think so. Sure, grammatically English is Germanic, but the very letters we're writing in now and adopted by much of western Europe stems from Italy, ie the roots of the English language. There are literally thousands of common words in English that stem from latin and italian, via French or directly, and it's not hard to see those roots when you see Italian words.
Latin/Italic =/= Italian.

The same way that Germanic =/= German.
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Old November 15th, 2011, 07:42 PM   #402
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Liverpool is a relatively modern city:it does not have any medieval buildings
All Saints in Childwall is Medieval Jane and so was that chapel in Maghull I recently took pictures of,I'm sure there's are some buildings in Sefton too?
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Old November 15th, 2011, 07:58 PM   #403
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Nothing in the city centre though i think, those places were probably rural villages when built.

Most of the northern belt grew rapidly from very little with the industrial revolution, either making stuff or shipping it. I can think of the two tudor pubs in Manchester city centre that were moved after the bomb but not much else older. Perhaps Chethams school of music and the small Roman remains of course but not much...
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Old November 15th, 2011, 08:26 PM   #404
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Manchester Cathedral was built in 1421, Chetams school, around the same time.
Ordsall Hall is virtually in the city centre and is about 500 years old (the present building at least).

The oldest structures in Manchester are intact many of the main roads which radiate from the city centre such as Chester Road, which are of Roman origin.
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Old November 15th, 2011, 08:31 PM   #405
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The cathedral and Chethams school must have looked a bit odd surrounded by mud huts at the time
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Old November 15th, 2011, 08:34 PM   #406
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Nothing in the city centre though i think
No but it's still Liverpool whatever way you look at it,the city's so much more than the City Centre as Dan found out.Remember Liverpool was the most bombed city outside of the capital and a huge chunk of it had to be rebuilt.The more you explore the region the better it gets.If you want to talk about the original Liverpool then you're talking about seven streets,Toxteth was rural and wasn't Liverpool at one time,it was a Royal Deer hunting park.

Last edited by Paul D; November 15th, 2011 at 08:45 PM.
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Old November 15th, 2011, 08:48 PM   #407
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Of course, I'm just saying that the character of the city as a whole is mostly Georgian, Victorian and 20th century. There are the odd exceptions but they don't have much to do with the history of the city as a city, they are more remnants of the area before the city really took shape.
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Old November 15th, 2011, 09:34 PM   #408
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Thank you for the amazing trip you took us on!
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Old November 16th, 2011, 12:47 AM   #409
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skymantle View Post
English has nothing to do with Italian? I don't think so. Sure, grammatically English is Germanic, but the very letters we're writing in now and adopted by much of western Europe stems from Italy, ie the roots of the English language. There are literally thousands of common words in English that stem from latin and italian, via French or directly, and it's not hard to see those roots when you see Italian words.

Lets not forget, like North America was a colony of Britain, where they brought their culture, Britain was once a colony of Rome, and discovered by Greeks, and therefore has undeniable and intrinsic Graeco-Roman cultural roots.
Yes Britain was a colony of Rome.. But the Romans left, and then hundreds of years later the country was invaded and colonised by the Anglo Saxons who were a tribe from the area between modern day Denmark and the very North of Germany.. It is from them we have our language - not the Romans. The "Eng" part of English comes from the Angles. The only Latin in the language didn't come from the original Roman settlers of Britain, but more through the spread of Christianity later on, and then on a larger scale from the impact of the normans.

The British languages were more or less pushed out and their languages have even less to do with English (manx, cornish, welsh, etc).

But you are correct that there are latin words in English.. I just had to point out that in no way is Italian the roots of English.
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Old November 16th, 2011, 03:19 AM   #410
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Yes, it would be nice to see plenty of large ocean going vessels docked there. I wonder how difficult that is with the tides.
Ah! The tides aren't difficult, they're very predictable, and have been for many hundreds of years thanks to the work of this smart chap, whose research is still used today!

The depth of the Mersey isn't a problem either; you could sit a huge oil tanker mid-river and even at low tide and it wouldn't get near the bottom.

The openings and the depth of the docks themselves limit the size of the vessels that can enter. The entrances into the docks around the the Albert Dock are quite small so only small ships could get in. However, navigation between the different docks in that area is hindered by redeveloped fixed foot and vehicle bridges that no longer open up to allow ships to pass through.

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One thing that intrigues me and I want to learn more about is how much of Liverpool is artificial - that is landfill that was built out into the Mersey precisely to make it more feasable to load and unload boats. I might be imagining this but I think I saw somewhere something that showed the original shoreline being around where the town hall is. And if that is true a couple hundred yards of Liverpool is man made.
I don't think the site of the current Town Hall itself was ever at the waters edge, but the Tower Buildings that you photographed (the building behind the Liver Building) was built on the site of the "Tower of Liverpool", which was a kind of riverside guardpost for the original town. Liverpool One sits on the site of the Old Dock, which in turn was constructed in a large tidal inlet, oddly enough called The Liver Pool!

I'm pretty sure that the majority of the seven miles of the dock estate on the Liverpool side of the river were built 'into' the river, rather than being excavated from land, with the exception being Stanely Dock. With that in mind, you could probably use the dock road and dock wall as a good divider between what is natural land and what is engineered.

This map might help you visualise it.. the red bit is my estimation of the original shoreline... You may find that the later docks where part constructed in river, part excavated, but I dunno, I'll ask around.

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Old November 16th, 2011, 04:19 PM   #411
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Thanks for the map. It is very interesting.

I wished I had walked to the football stadiums - they weren't far.

BTW, on the Wirral side it looks interesting just to the west of Hamilton Square where I was. In fact, that whole chunk of land looks like it may have been an island.
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Old November 16th, 2011, 08:51 PM   #412
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600West, you'll hate me for this!

It's been revealed that, from this Thursday, visitors will be able to go all the way up the clock tower at the Town Hall in Manchester. Great views apparently

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/no...ns-clock-tower
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Old November 16th, 2011, 09:39 PM   #413
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Originally Posted by 600West218 View Post
Thanks for the map. It is very interesting.

I wished I had walked to the football stadiums - they weren't far.

BTW, on the Wirral side it looks interesting just to the west of Hamilton Square where I was. In fact, that whole chunk of land looks like it may have been an island.
I think Wallasey is an English name that means roughly foreigner (British/Welsh) island, as in the English name for Wales and William Wallace (who was Welsh descent.) Basically it means that when the Anglo Saxon tribes took The Wirral Peninsula there was still for some time some Welsh (which was spoken all over northern england before then) speakers surviving right at the very tip.
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Old November 16th, 2011, 09:56 PM   #414
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The Welsh name for Wallasey is Cilgwri. Of the cities you went to on your trip only Liverpool, Manchester and York have Welsh names that are still used there. Down to proximity I guess for Liverpool and Manchester and York due to historical significance. Lerpwl, Manceinion & Efrog respectively.

'W' in welsh is literally double u. OO. So Cilgoori/Lerpool to you or me.

Also I need to get a life.
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Old November 16th, 2011, 10:04 PM   #415
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Before I do that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by future.architect View Post
Manchester Cathedral was built in 1421, Chetams school, around the same time.
Ordsall Hall is virtually in the city centre and is about 500 years old (the present building at least).

The oldest structures in Manchester are intact many of the main roads which radiate from the city centre such as Chester Road, which are of Roman origin.
There are a couple of Iron age forts at Mellor in Stockport and in Irlam in Salford but yeah he's not wrong there are tons of Roman roads radiating out of Manchester which was fairly central to the national network. Some of it actually survives on Blackstone Edge outside of Rochdale unbelievably.





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Old November 16th, 2011, 10:07 PM   #416
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600West, you'll hate me for this!

It's been revealed that, from this Thursday, visitors will be able to go all the way up the clock tower at the Town Hall in Manchester. Great views apparently

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/no...ns-clock-tower
Holy cow, that belligerent e-mail I sent to David Cameron complaining about being denied entry to all the Town Halls worked!!

Another thing I like about England - responsive government

Between not seeing the correct part of Ancoats, going up the town hall, and seeing the library where Marx studied I have more than enough to justify another trip to Manchester
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Old November 17th, 2011, 03:18 AM   #417
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I think Wallasey is an English name that means roughly foreigner (British/Welsh) island, as in the English name for Wales and William Wallace (who was Welsh descent.) Basically it means that when the Anglo Saxon tribes took The Wirral Peninsula there was still for some time some Welsh (which was spoken all over northern england before then) speakers surviving right at the very tip.
Spot on. In ancient times, Wallasey would have been disconnected from the Wirral by the "Wallasey Pool", where the docks are now, and Bidston Moss which was an area of marshland that continued all the way up to Leasowe. That Wallasey now connects to the rest of the Wirral is the result of substantial engineering works undertaken over the last two centuries to prevent the River Mersey forming a second outlet around the other side of Wallasey.

http://www.engineering-timelines.com...tem.asp?id=789

http://igor.gold.ac.uk/~mas01rwb/wir...ralSeaWall.pdf
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Old November 17th, 2011, 08:20 PM   #418
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It's a pity this had to end but hope to see pictures from another trip in the future.
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Old November 17th, 2011, 09:09 PM   #419
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Yep, there will be trips back to England.

And I'll be looking forward to input from people here about things to see.

Thanks to everyone for all the amazing information that you have shared and especially to Paul who helped get my trip off to such a fantastic start in Liverpool.
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Old November 17th, 2011, 11:36 PM   #420
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I think you should go even more up there, like Newcastle, etc, which are often neglected by tourists.
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