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Old June 7th, 2006, 01:58 AM   #201
Smelser
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Whatever it's faults may be, I am sure that the Toronto Transit system is much more mature and much more functional than Vancouver's.

What is the availability of washroooms to TTC users? This is a beef of mine because suburban transit users in Vancouver may have to endure as much as a 1.5 to 2 hour trip without access to washrooms. If that's not doable, they had better get back in their cars!
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Old June 7th, 2006, 03:42 AM   #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratoronto
There is a rumour circulating that the Toronto Transit Commission is in negotiations to donate a large number of their old TTC Streetcars to Havana, Cuba. Anyone have more info?
Yep, it was the recently retired 1991 CNG Buses. The ones with the humps on the roof. A lot of them got vandalized when they were parked in a parking lot in the north end of Toronto.
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Old June 7th, 2006, 03:52 AM   #203
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I don't really like the low floor buses.

For one, it seems as if there is less standing room. Also visibility is poorer for passengers inside the bus (you can no longer look over the top of surrounding cars if you on the lower plane). On the otherhand, accessbility for the handicapped is much greater due to the ability to kneel.
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Old June 10th, 2006, 02:05 PM   #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smelser
What is the availability of washroooms to TTC users? This is a beef of mine because suburban transit users in Vancouver may have to endure as much as a 1.5 to 2 hour trip without access to washrooms. If that's not doable, they had better get back in their cars!
Well, there are washrooms at all terminal stations and the main interchange at Bloor/Yonge....

cheers, m
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Old July 18th, 2006, 05:51 PM   #205
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TTC to reconsider controversial seat layout
Second look prompted by recent arrests of 17 terrorism suspects in Toronto area

18 July 2006
The Globe and Mail

The recent arrests of 17 terrorism suspects in the Toronto area, along with deadly bombings on rail transit around the world, have led the Toronto Transit Commission to take another look at a controversial seat layout for its new subway cars.

Called perimeter seating, the proposed arrangement would line the sides of the next generation of subway cars with bench-like seats, removing the nooks and crannies of the current layout where, TTC officials say, terrorists could more easily hide bombs. Common on new subway systems in Europe and Asia, the layout was panned when first proposed in March to the nine-member commission of city councillors that oversees the TTC. Howard Moscoe, chairman of the TTC, said then that the change would turn Toronto's subway vehicles into “cattle cars.” The design of the new cars went ahead without it.

But the TTC's acting chief general manager, Gary Webster, said the TTC felt duty bound to reintroduce the idea after the arrests of 17 terrorism suspects in the Toronto area last month. He wants the commission, at its meeting tomorrow, to reconsider perimeter seating. “When the events occurred, the recent arrests in June occurred in Toronto . . . that was the final issue for us,” Mr. Webster said yesterday, adding that the TTC hoped to get more input from the public on the proposed change.

He said police, fire and ambulance workers favour perimeter seating, because it is easier to move through subway cars quickly in an emergency. The cars are also easier to evacuate than the current fleet, Mr. Webster said.

The cars would have a little more standing room and would be easier to navigate, he said. And if done right, he added, passengers wouldn't feel like animals: “We don't want a cattle car in Toronto.”

But the TTC's outspoken chairman remains opposed. Mr. Moscoe said yesterday he isn't convinced that making it easier to spot packages would make the transit system any safer, given that the TTC finds 30,000 unattended parcels on the system every year.

“So, we make packages visible, what then? Everyone can see the bomb explode?”

He predicted a public outcry if the TTC installs perimeter seating.

“If they need to look into nooks and crannies, put up mirrors,” Mr. Moscoe said. “But to make thousands of passenger rides uncomfortable and essentially degrade the system, for alleged reasons of safety, unless you can actually do something about safety, means nothing.”

Terrorists have targeted commuter rail lines or subway systems in Madrid, London and, most recently, Mumbai. However, the TTC was not identified as a target in the arrests of the Toronto suspects.

Toronto's plan to buy 234 subway cars, at a cost of up to $705-million, has also been controversial because of the commission's decision to enter exclusive talks with Bombardier to build the cars at its Thunder Bay plant without seeking bids from other firms.

Mr. Moscoe and Mayor David Miller defend the deal as a way to protect jobs in Ontario. Several right-leaning critics on city council have demanded that the contract be opened up to competition after German-based competitor Siemens said it could save the city at least $100-million, partly by building the cars in China.

The first new cars, to replace the chunk of the fleet that dates from the 1970s, are supposed to go into service in 2009. Talks with Bombardier on the design of the car, extended after a six-month deadline came and went, are now up against a tight timeline as the TTC hopes to have the project approved at city council's September meeting — the last chance before the Nov. 13 election.

Also tomorrow, Mr. Moscoe, a key ally of Toronto's left-leaning mayor, is expected to face a no-confidence motion in his leadership of the TTC.

The call for Mr. Moscoe to step down, which is expected to fail, comes in the wake of the illegal strike that shut down the TTC in May and the abrupt departure of TTC chief general manager Rick Ducharme.
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Old July 18th, 2006, 06:11 PM   #206
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Nice. I think the TTC should take design cues from the MTR - the epitome of efficiency
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Old July 20th, 2006, 02:04 AM   #207
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ttc should expand its subway or build other forms of mass transit, like the scarbough rt
if subways aren't a reality, look at other rail options
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Old July 20th, 2006, 06:04 PM   #208
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TTC turns down perimeter seating
Commission rebuffs engineers' request to consider terrorism in planning new cars
JEFF GRAY
With a report from Oliver Moore
20 July 2006
The Globe and Mail

The Toronto Transit Commission rebuffed a request from its engineers yesterday to consider the threat of terrorism in deciding on the seating layout of the next generation of subway cars.

Plans for so-called perimeter seating, which would see the walls of the new subway cars lined with benches, were dismissed earlier this year by TTC chairman Howard Moscoe and other commissioners. Mr. Moscoe likened the design to a “cattle car.”

Yesterday, TTC staff asked them to reconsider, arguing that perimeter seating would eliminate the nooks and crannies of the current layout and make it more difficult to conceal a bomb.

Mr. Moscoe and other commissioners said they doubted whether the seat layout would make Toronto any safer from terrorists.

“We're going to make the car a safe as possible, but we're not doing it at the expense of the riding public,” he said.

Even as the commission considered the relevance of terrorism to the TTC, the bomb squad was busy on Dundas Street West where police cordoned off the normally busy block on the north side of the Eaton Centre for more than two hours at midday.

“It was just a suspicious package, there was no threat called in,” said 52 Division's Staff-Sergeant Alex Belgrade.

The item turned out to be harmless: A non-descript pair of dark trousers falling from a yellow No Frills bag as it was lifted off the ground by the bomb squad's robot. Traffic was allowed through the area again shortly after 1:30 p.m.

“The pants were probably entered as property,” Staff-Sergeant Belgrade said.

Meanwhile, Mr. Moscoe survived an attempt to knock him from his post as commissioners voted down a no-confidence motion accusing him of meddling in the TTC's troubled labour relations.

The motion from commissioners Bill Saundercook and Mark Grimes urged the TTC to dump Mr. Moscoe for interfering in relations between the union and management before and after the illegal strike that paralyzed the system on May 29.

TTC chief general manager Rick Ducharme resigned shortly after, accusing Mr. Moscoe of “political interference” in labour relations.

The motion failed 5-3, after commissioners loyal to the outspoken chairman — a key ally of Mayor David Miller — voted to keep him in his post.

After the vote, Mr. Grimes stood up and resigned as a commissioner, saying he could no longer serve with Mr. Moscoe as chair.

“Obviously my voice is not going to be heard,” Mr. Grimes said.

Also at yesterday's meeting, the commission members voted to cover $1,189 in travel expenses for commissioner Sandra Bussin, an ally of Mr. Moscoe's.

She flew back from a personal trip to Florida to attend an emergency TTC meeting called to deal with Mr. Ducharme's resignation.
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Old July 20th, 2006, 11:09 PM   #209
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I like the permiter seating. It lets more people in the car (or more room for each person).
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Old July 20th, 2006, 11:30 PM   #210
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I've only read so far the first messages on this thread, which I entered bc I'm visiting Toronto for the first time and I'm all about seeing things in advance about Toronto. Some Toronto members need to calm down about comments regarding the Toronto subway cars which some didn't like. While it's true that the primary purpose of a subway train is to carry people from point A to point B, there is nothing wrong with aspiring to a nicer, more sleak look. I'm POSITIVE that most people from Toronto (as well as NYC and Chicago) would prefer to have nicer, sleaker looking trains if they could. And just because it runs undergound doesn't mean that it can't look better...there is ALWAYS room for improvement.
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Old July 24th, 2006, 07:23 AM   #211
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King Station as planned in the 1920s.


The proposed map from the same era.


Early perimeter seating as it would have appeared on one of the older trains. looks good, but why so narrow?


The old Gloucesters.


Back in the 70s when the silver metallic train design first came into use.


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Old July 24th, 2006, 09:01 PM   #212
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Surprisingly this is not too far off from what most stations look like today...
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Old July 24th, 2006, 11:25 PM   #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyronin
Early perimeter seating as it would have appeared on one of the older trains. looks good, but why so narrow?
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that the scarborough rt?
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Old July 25th, 2006, 02:28 AM   #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KGB

"The RT cars are indeed a piece of shite, no idea how anyone can like them."

Well, their linear induction motors and driverless automation was a novelty back in the day I guess (and this was a compromise from the mag lev technology the Ontario government was working on). You should check out what some of the Vancouverite forumers have to say about it (they have the excact same thing)...they are calling it "the most advanced transit system in the world" LOL!!!

KGB
I realize that this comment was made several years ago, but I just noticed this thread today and couldn't help myself. This is so very true, Vancouverites live in total denial about Skytrain's capabilities, and that of LRT generally.

Here we got the automated LRT system designed by UTDC, a once-upon-a-time Ontario Govt Crown Corp as Skytrain in time for the 1986 Expo, which was officially a transportation exhibition! Why was this system chosen, and why was it put into service over a nearly 30km distance from downtown Vancouver to North Surrey. The answer of course is politics. Premier Bill Bennett had won the 1979 provincial election by a narrow margin, and wanted to secure his position by hiring new, highly talented political operatives. These he obtained from the Ontario Conservatives, the Big Blue Machine, in the persons of Jerry Lampert and Patrick Kinsella. In exchange, the BC Govt decided, over objections from local officials, to purchase the Ontario Crown Corp's ALRT system, which to that point had no significant sales.

Bennett's Science Minister, UBC Professor Pat McGeer also liked the fact that the trains would be automated. There would be no bus drivers who could go on strike. It was the same decision making criteria McGeer postulated in touting a fixed link to Vancouver Island, there would be no ferry workers who could go on strike. The fixed link project was later shown in BC Govt studies to require tolls of around $200, instead of the current $50 or so on the BC Ferries. Here was another, explicitly political rationale for choosing the Ontario ALRT equipment.

The Toronto Transit Commission was leery of the system and never let it get beyond one small spur line. And I understand that the Scarborourgh RT line does have drivers, because in Ontarion they didn't want to spook the riders by asking them board pilotless craft.

I hope this will help spur discussion, but I have to go now.
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Old July 25th, 2006, 03:20 AM   #215
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Vancouver is a nice city but even having a small highway would have solved all of the city's traffic problems.
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Old July 25th, 2006, 03:37 AM   #216
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_subway_and_RT



http://www.toronto.ca/ttc/spadina_ex..._alignment.htm



http://transit.toronto.on.ca/subway/5511.shtml



This artists conception, taken from the TTC’s website, illustrates one feature the mockup car was unable to encapsulate. The proposed trains are to feature cabs which stretch the width of the car. The TTC official on duty admitted that a number of people had complained about the loss of the “railfan” window allowing passengers to look out the front of the train.



Another shot of the gangway effect. Photo by Gordon Keith.



This image, taken from the TTC website, illustrates possible internal colour schemes that passengers could choose between. Scheme 1 is obviously closest to that of the T-1, and the internal appearance of the mock-up. The other schemes do not match the internal configuration of the mockup or feature only unpopular side-facing seats. One wonders which scheme passengers favoured.



Another feature of that the mock-up car was not able to simulate was the evacuation ramp out of the front of the train, allowing passengers, including those on wheelchairs, to quickly reach track level.



One of the bells and whistles displayed on the mockup is this LED version of the TTC’s subway map. Coloured lights will tell riders where they are on the network, where they are going, and where the doors will open at the next stop.



The red X indicates that doors will open on the opposite side. The green arrow indicates the doors will open on this side.
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Last edited by Jayayess1190; July 25th, 2006 at 03:46 AM.
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Old July 25th, 2006, 04:25 AM   #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by degnaw
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that the scarborough rt?
hmm, I guess it would be now that you mention it.
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Old July 25th, 2006, 04:30 AM   #218
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Regarding "bells and whistles" of animated signboard maps: Many modern subway systems have had this for years.
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Last edited by Skybean; July 27th, 2006 at 04:53 AM.
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Old July 25th, 2006, 06:12 PM   #219
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That is a lot of people...

How would everyone even fit on the train (I am in favor of perimeter seating, as it makes it less of a cattle car for those who can't get a seat), even if everyone was standing? how many trains would have to go by (which might already be full) before everyone in the picture could get on?
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Old July 25th, 2006, 06:26 PM   #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by degnaw
That is a lot of people...

How would everyone even fit on the train (I am in favor of perimeter seating, as it makes it less of a cattle car for those who can't get a seat), even if everyone was standing? how many trains would have to go by (which might already be full) before everyone in the picture could get on?
that's probably an isolated incident...i've lived here for 10 years and i've only seen it like that a few times. but to answer your question, if the train cars were empty, it would probably take 2 or 3 of them to get everybody on...
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