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Old October 31st, 2007, 10:59 PM   #441
Electrify
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TTC security-camera challenge seen as test case
Canadian Press
29 October 2007

An investigation into whether privacy laws would be violated by installing thousands of security cameras throughout the country's largest public transit network will likely be a test case for other Canadian jurisdictions contemplating similar surveillance systems to deter crime or terror attacks, experts say.

“Anything that happens in Ontario … and in Toronto in particular, will be closely examined in other jurisdictions in Canada,” said Ariane Siegel, a privacy expert and partner at Gowlings law firm in Toronto.

“Not only by municipal organizations, but by other organizations as well.”

The Toronto Transit Commission is in the process of installing up to 10,000 security cameras in its buses, streetcars and subway system, adding to its current network of about 1,500 cameras.

That prompted London-based Privacy International to lodge a complaint Wednesday with Ontario Privacy Commissioner Ann Cavoukian, denouncing the project as an unnecessary waste of resources that violates Canadian privacy laws.

TTC chairman Adam Giambrone has defended the plan, saying it conforms to privacy guidelines because the information will not be viewed live and will be accessed only by the police.
I believe the Viva buses in York Region have CCTV cameras installed in them. And I don't see what makes this different than a security camera in a mall.

Here is hoping this gets thrown out before it costs too much money. And if it does end up costing the TTC millions, it will come out of this ambulance chasing lawfirm.
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Old November 2nd, 2007, 04:43 AM   #442
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It's true that every city faces financing issues regarding their subways, but Toronto's subway is an embarassment.

Downtown Toronto is rapidly densifying, yet we have only one single subway that was built 50 years ago! One 50 year old north-south subway in the entire downtown is ridiculous. That is NOT a subway system.

You have to travel 30 blocks north to Bloor before you can go east or west. The platforms are puny, the halls too narrow, and the escalators insufficient. Where are the subways along King, Queen, Dundas, College, Wellesley, Bathurst, Spadina, Sherbourne, and Parliament?

The only thing more ridiculous is that some Torontonians think that a subway system along these routes is lavish. It is not. We have simply become used to going without. I just hope that when we get 4 or 5 more lines south of Bloor that they have the sense to build them large enough to handle a population explosion over the next 50 years. If not, we'll end up with another London. One line goes down, and the system almost comes to a crushing standstill.

Last edited by isaidso; November 2nd, 2007 at 04:54 AM.
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Old November 3rd, 2007, 01:57 AM   #443
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The city doesn't have money to build 4 or 5 more lines.
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Old November 3rd, 2007, 06:43 AM   #444
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It's true that every city faces financing issues regarding their subways, but Toronto's subway is an embarassment.

Downtown Toronto is rapidly densifying, yet we have only one single subway that was built 50 years ago! One 50 year old north-south subway in the entire downtown is ridiculous. That is NOT a subway system.

You have to travel 30 blocks north to Bloor before you can go east or west. The platforms are puny, the halls too narrow, and the escalators insufficient. Where are the subways along King, Queen, Dundas, College, Wellesley, Bathurst, Spadina, Sherbourne, and Parliament?

The only thing more ridiculous is that some Torontonians think that a subway system along these routes is lavish. It is not. We have simply become used to going without. I just hope that when we get 4 or 5 more lines south of Bloor that they have the sense to build them large enough to handle a population explosion over the next 50 years. If not, we'll end up with another London. One line goes down, and the system almost comes to a crushing standstill.
In a way, we have two lines through downtown. Or at the very least, we have one line but it services two separate north-south corridors.

Beyond that, I do agree that we should have some form of east-west rapid transit through downtown, and not have to goto Bloor. Hell, imo Bloor shouldn't even have a subway!!! Sure it was seeing more ridership as the city continued to grow out, but Queen would have helped set the stage to bring people back into the core, and have helped to create a transit friendly downtown.

On the plus side, few cities will you find subways running every 2-3 minutes through rush hour.
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Old November 3rd, 2007, 08:00 AM   #445
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The city doesn't have money to build 4 or 5 more lines.
The city had enough trouble finding enough money to build 5 km of the Sheppard line...so sadly, I dont think anyone would consider 4-5 subway lines...

Lets see....1 km of subway would cost about $200 million after everything is taken into account...

That $200 million would also build about 8 km of LRT line (assuming LRT costs $25 mn/km.

So, which would you prefer?

Transit City will build the network...let's get the network in place first...then we force it to grow.

Cheers, m
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Old November 3rd, 2007, 11:33 AM   #446
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The city doesn't have money to build 4 or 5 more lines.
Toronto, Ontario, and Canada have few equals on this planet when it comes to wealth. There is money all over the place, what is lacking is the political will to spend the money on subways in Toronto. If Ontario, or the feds deemed this a priority, we'd be getting subways hand over fist. This country is $15 Billion is surplus EVERY year, and that figure is growing despite aggressive tax cuts. There's not another G8 nation awash in so much cash.

The screams of poverty are ridiculous. Cities and nations many times poorer than us find billions for subways. The fact remains that Torontonians don't demand the money be allocated here, nor do we see what an important investment it is in our economic future. It is mindboggling that this intolerable situation has managed to continue year after year.

The Jubilee Line subway extension in London cost $5.1 Billion for 11 miles of track in 1999. London is NOT a wealthier city than Toronto. The UK is NOT wealthier than Canada either. The British understand how important the success of London is not only to Londoners, but to all of Britain. Toronto, Ontario, and Canada need to wake up.

Electrify: Bloor should have a subway. I think what you are saying is that Queen should have gotten one first. The reason that our downtown has developed north along Yonge rather than east and west along the lake is simple. Lack of transportation infrastructure: there is no subway! I hear it over and over again. Office tower developers don't want to build west of University Avenue because workers need an effective way to travel to work. A subway is the only form of transport that can move such high volumes. Till we get a subway heading east and west from the core, development will continue to concentrate where it currently lies.

Last edited by isaidso; November 3rd, 2007 at 11:51 AM.
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Old November 4th, 2007, 03:19 AM   #447
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Originally Posted by isaidso
If not, we'll end up with another London. One line goes down, and the system almost comes to a crushing standstill.
Utter rubbish.

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Originally Posted by Electrify
On the plus side, few cities will you find subways running every 2-3 minutes through rush hour.
LOL. I think you'll find that's crap. And I also think you'll find that Tokyo, Moscow and Paris all have even higher frequencies.
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Old November 4th, 2007, 07:32 AM   #448
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Downtown Toronto is rapidly densifying, yet we have only one single subway that was built 50 years ago! One 50 year old north-south subway in the entire downtown is ridiculous. That is NOT a subway system.
Last time I checked, there was the Yonge line, the University line, and the Bloor line serving downtown. If that's not a subway system, then what is it...a peanut butter sandwich?



Quote:
You have to travel 30 blocks north to Bloor before you can go east or west.

30 blocks from where...Buffalo? It's only 2kms from Queen to Bloor. Getting to the Bloor line is a quick and easy from anywhere downtown via the Yonge or University lines.

And traveling east or west south of Bloor is quite easy....you forget about our well-used LRT system...there are 5 streetcar lines running east-west and two lines running north-south also serving downtown.


Quote:
Where are the subways along King, Queen, Dundas, College, Wellesley, Bathurst, Spadina, Sherbourne, and Parliament?

Sure...in my fantasy world there are subways running under every street too. Problem is, you have to wake up and face the real world. Snap out of it.

We don't really need subways running east-west south of Bloor...the LRT lines are much more appropriate for the travel patterns along those routes. Check a map...there aren't many people traveling long distances east or west south of Bloor, because Bloor is actually quite a bit south geographically.

The city needs more cross-town subway lines alright...but north of Bloor, not south of it. We do need a north-south downtown relief line east of Yonge mind you.


Quote:
The platforms are puny, the halls too narrow, and the escalators insufficient.

Puny platforms? They are designed to move the entire contents of a 6-car T-1 train at 2 minute headways, which of course, they never need to do. During peak rush hour, there are a few major transfer stations that can get really crowded, especially if there is some kind of problem, but I have travelled on other subway systems, and Toronto really doesn't know what real nasty crowding is...yet anyway. For the majority of station platforms, they are more than adequate.

More escalators would be nice (or at least have pairs, rather than just one operating in the direction of rush hour traffic). But again, I have been on many subways that don't have escalatos or elevators period. Toronto doesn't run the only "older" subway system missing some of these things ya know.



Quote:
The Jubilee Line subway extension in London cost $5.1 Billion for 11 miles of track in 1999. London is NOT a wealthier city than Toronto. The UK is NOT wealthier than Canada either. The British understand how important the success of London is not only to Londoners, but to all of Britain. Toronto, Ontario, and Canada need to wake up.

Get this through your head....Toronto is a revenue source...not a revenue benefactor. And the rest of the country is NEVER going to get moist over the idea of "investing" federal or provincial tax dollars in Toronto, no matter how "important" it is. So you might as well stop wasting brain cells over that one...that's just the way it is here.

Things are looking up though...the feds never invested tax dollars into public transit anywhere before, because it was never the job of the federal government...you seem to forget we live in the most highly decentralized country in the world...our federal government has a very small job...all the real work is done by the provinces. The fact that they are starting to actually hand money over for this kind of thing is new, and only do to the general public opinion about "green" policies, which transit falls into.

And Toronto is not London. You seem to forget that most transit riders on the TTC are "choice" riders. Unlike London, and many other major "subway" cities, Toronto is still a city where you can own and operate a car quite cheaply and efficiently. Doing this in New York, Tokyo or european cites is simply not economically or physically possible....transit is mandatory for almost everybody. Not to mention the average person who works in the core of Toronto can actually afford to live in the core if they choose as well, making long distance transit (or transit at all) not even necessary...try that in London...it's simply out of reach for the average person.




Quote:
The reason that our downtown has developed north along Yonge rather than east and west along the lake is simple. Lack of transportation infrastructure:


I really don't see a problem with that at all...Toronto has been extremely good at TOD, and there is still plenty of room to densify at current subway stations. It's better to concentrate and keep things compact. We complain that "other" cities have built more miles of subway track, but the name of the game is not how much track you build, but how you use the track you have to be the most efficient...and Toronto does that very well. Bring people to the subway...not the subway to the people.

This compact, simple, frequent and efficient subway system we are complaining about, has actually given us an advantage in terms of our interesting and somewhat unique "nodal" development.

Don't get me wrong...I'm not saying we shouldn't build more subways...I'm definetely a huge fan of doing that (in the right places)....I'm just saying it's better to build smaller subway lines with more people living/working on it, than it is to blow the bank building tons of subways that serve a more spread out population....it simply isn't very cost efficient.





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Old November 4th, 2007, 10:43 AM   #449
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KGB:

Toronto's downtown stretches north from the lake to Bloor. Your defintion may go beyond that, but the central core is all south of Bloor. The Bloor-Danforth line is the northern boundary of this. Travelling north from Union station either up Yonge, or a few blocks to the west, up University doesn't change the fact that you can only travel in a north-south direction in the downtown. That is not a network by most people's defintion. A network implies interconnectivity or system. This doesn't meet even this very basic benchmark. We have a TTC system downtown, but we do not have a subway system downtown.

It doesn't qualify as a 'system'. If you tried to tell anyone from any city with a real subway system that we have a subway system in our downtown, they would find the assertion a bit of a stretch. Our own TTC readily admit that we don't have a subway system downtown. I went to their public forum on the future of the TTC in the GTA. Judging by the applause in reaction to this statement, almost everyone in the audience seemed to be in agreement on this point.

My statement that you need to travel 30 blocks north before you can go east-west was an estimation. My apologies, it is closer to 25 blocks from Union to Bloor. I suppose I am used to Paris, London, and Montreal and am simply spoiled. Travelling 2 km to Bloor, as you suggest, may seem satisfactory to you, but when you're used to a subway station every 300 metres in a downtown, having to go 2 km is a big shock.

LRT? I don't expect to have to take LRT in a big city. It's one of those compromises you make when you move to a different place. Some things are better, some aren't acceptable to you because you are used to more. This is one of those cases. A streetcar instead of a subway is not a compromise I'm used to having to make.

I've resigned myself to the fact that subways are not a priority here like they are in other places in the world. Your reaction to my complaints is proof of that. I will simply have to grin and bear it.

Toronto is not a city for someone who loves subways, that's for sure. The idea that 4-5 subways south of Bloor is fantasy to people here is massive culture shock and a big eye opener. The mentality here certainly is different. We need them here, we need them north of Bloor also. The system is 1/5 the size it should be, but if Torontonians don't see that, I'll have to content myself with whizzing by them on my roller blades as they sit in traffic.

The platforms and stations are puny. During rush hour they are swamped. If Toronto's population was stagnant or falling it wouldn't be a huge issue. The fact that it is surging and people don't see any pressing problem is very worrying though.

Canada and Ontario need to wake up to the importance of an efficiently running Toronto. If they are so small minded and petty that they don't understand what is at stake for all Canadians, we are thicker than I thought. Bickering between the feds, the province, and municipalities has to stop. Perhaps, the younger generation will put an end to this madness. I'm well aware of the fiscal realities of a federation. I am not interested in rehashing what I am already aware of, only in solutions to the mess. "that's just the way it is here" I'm sorry, but I found that statement the biggest let down of all. What a cop out. How are we ever going to progress with that attitude? It's like a self-fulfilling prophecy. Accepting the present situation is not going to solve the problems facing our city.

Toronto is not London. Quite right. But Toronto is heading in that direction whether we like it or not. We can either learn from their experience or bury our heads in the sand and think we're above it all. We are not. Almost every demographer, economist, and urban planner recognizes that Toronto needs to dramatically re-think how it views itself. The kind of city Toronto is, and has been, is rapidly coming to an end. We can recognize the sweeping changes that will occur, and prepare for it, or go into denial because we feel threatened by the changes taking place.

You may not agree, but I'd rather listen to the academics, acknowledge the signs all around me which seem to back up their assertions, meet the challenges head on, and triumph over them. The do-nothing route of denial, excuses, and self-praise can only end badly. What is the worst that can happen if we manage to pressure Queen's Park and Ottawa to build subways on Queen and College?

I just don't know why you seem so hostile. We both live here. You can't improve on something unless you acknowledge what is lacking. Why not just build more subways?

Iampuking:

Utter rubbish? Tell that to London Underground. They'd beg to differ. I've lived half my life in London, so don't tell me it's rubbish.

Last edited by isaidso; November 4th, 2007 at 11:08 AM.
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Old November 4th, 2007, 10:36 PM   #450
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Utter rubbish? Tell that to London Underground. They'd beg to differ. I've lived half my life in London, so don't tell me it's rubbish.
Well you're clearly not very observant. Just this weekend the Circle line was suspended entirely. Did the whole system "come to a crushing standstill." Well certainly not IMO.
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Old November 5th, 2007, 08:34 AM   #451
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I just don't know why you seem so hostile. We both live here.

I'll tell you why...I know the place very well...you clearly have no clue...you are one of those types who have moved here, haven't figured it out yet, and have decided that it all just sucks instead. There's really little point in discussing those issues with a person with your kind of attitude.

I don't have the time right now to adress every sentence in your last post, which is just too full of flaws, misconceptions and hyperbole. But let me give you one bit of advice...don't define Toronto by what it isn't..define it by what it is. Some of your basic flaws are not understanding the dynamics...we wouldn't follow what they are doing in London, because the basic physical layout, demographics, and most importantly...travel patterns are completely different.

Your assertions regarding streetcars are especially telling that you don't have the foggiest clue.

I am fully aware of what and where improvements are needed in terms of transit....certainly far more than you are, and with TTC staff in the family, far more in tune with what's going on. So maybe you should think long and hard about your position before writing everybody off who doesn't champion your ideas as just lacking vision, in denial, unaware or having our heads in the sand.

Yea...we both live here....only I'm the one who actually seems to like it. Perhaps if you can't be patient enough to climatize to it, you should stop doing us all this big favour you seem to think you are doing us by tolerating and compromising yourself by glorifying us with your presence....and move to those cities that apparantly have perfect transit systems.




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Old November 5th, 2007, 11:33 AM   #452
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Well you're clearly not very observant. Just this weekend the Circle line was suspended entirely. Did the whole system "come to a crushing standstill." Well certainly not IMO.
I'm not abreast of what is happening in London presently. You are correct. I moved from London in 2001. In my defence, if you check my post, I did say 'ALMOST comes to a crushing standstill'. Yes, it was still an exaggeration on my part. Regardless, that is great that London is coping so well with the Circle line suspended. By zeroing in on one minor point I made, the crux of my message has been overlooked. London has overcome, what in the past, had been a potentially paralyzing proposition. I am not interested in arguing what level of stress closing one line is causing. What I am interested in, is pointing out how important it is to invest in infrastructure....as London does. London takes subways seriously. Toronto, does not. London should be commended. It was not my intention to insult.

Toronto makes alot of excuses for the the state of its subways. In the end it is futile to defend the current situation when paralysis is what Torontonians are going to be faced with.

Last edited by isaidso; November 5th, 2007 at 12:24 PM.
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Old November 5th, 2007, 12:13 PM   #453
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KGB:

has it ever occurred to you that people simply don't respond to your posts because it is like trying to have an academic discussion with a brain damaged troglodyte who is incapable of anything but childish put downs and arrogant, narrow minded, mass delusion? I'll save you the trouble of locating a dictionary. Troglodyte refers to a very slow, unintelligent, dimwitted person. A primitive cave dweller. There, I've simplified things for you. I'll even add a paragraph so you don't short circuit something you're in desperately short supply of: brain cells.

It's always a shock to leave the professional world around me and experience how thick other people really are. Then again, any 7 year old has internet access. Perhaps you are 7? Chat rooms allow exposure to the most pea-brained toxic people like yourself. I have no other option than to put you on IGNORE. If you don't understand what that means. It means that I won't have to suffer through your agonizingly stupid posts any longer. It's not my fault you feel so inadequate around me and need to resort to defensive mudslingling. Some people just aren't bright enough, educated enough, or refined enough for me to waste a nanosecond on. Back to the trailer park, mister.

Any messages you post, I won't see. You're more than welcome to respond, but you'll be talking to yourself. I bet you'll try though. :

Last edited by isaidso; November 5th, 2007 at 12:25 PM.
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Old November 5th, 2007, 03:17 PM   #454
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Toronto may want to build subways, but there is no money to do so, so people will have to settle for less. The politicians they elect don't seem to think transit is a priority until elections come, and then announce grandiose one-off projects that disappear after the glitzy press conferences. If people can choose, then subways are definitely high on the priority list, but in reality, LRT would be a great alternative for now - better than nothing.
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Old November 5th, 2007, 06:58 PM   #455
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I'm not abreast of what is happening in London presently. You are correct. I moved from London in 2001. In my defence, if you check my post, I did say 'ALMOST comes to a crushing standstill'. Yes, it was still an exaggeration on my part. Regardless, that is great that London is coping so well with the Circle line suspended. By zeroing in on one minor point I made, the crux of my message has been overlooked. London has overcome, what in the past, had been a potentially paralyzing proposition. I am not interested in arguing what level of stress closing one line is causing. What I am interested in, is pointing out how important it is to invest in infrastructure....as London does. London takes subways seriously. Toronto, does not. London should be commended. It was not my intention to insult.

Toronto makes alot of excuses for the the state of its subways. In the end it is futile to defend the current situation when paralysis is what Torontonians are going to be faced with.
Fair enough.
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Old November 5th, 2007, 07:38 PM   #456
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Transit City is garbage.

This is what Toronto needs:

Subway
Yonge-Weston(Richmond Hill Centre-Pearson)
Don Mills-University-Spadina(Markham Centre-Vaughan Centre)
Bloor-Danforth(Sherway Gardens-Markville/Centennial GO)
Eglinton(Renforth-Pickering Town Centre)
Sheppard-Etobicoke(Long Branch-Pickering Town Centre)
Queen(Sherway Gardens-Coxwell/Kingston)

LRT
Waterfront(Long Branch-Vic Park station[via Portlands, Beach])
Jane(Jane station-VCC)
Dufferin(Exhibition-Steeles)
Bathurst(Exhibition-Steeles)
Spadina(same as today)
Paliament(Distillery station[or Union]-Castle Frank
Carlton(same as today)
Coxwell/O'Connor(Kingston station-Eglinton Square station)
Kingston(Kingston station-Tallpines station*)
Victoria Park(Vic Park station-Steeles East station)
St. Clair(same as today, except to Jane station)
Lawrence West(airport[via Dixon]-Lawrence station)
Lawrence East(Don Mills station**-Malvern Town Centre[via Morningside])***
Wilson(Weston Road-York Mills station)
Finch(York University-Malvern Town Centre)
Steeles West(Albion-Steeles station)
Steeles East(Steeles station-Markham Road)

*station would be at Sheppard-Port Union/Kingston-401(a transfer point with Eglinton)
**today's Don Mills station would be renamed Fairview, while the REAL Don Mills station would take the name
***Could possibly start at the Yonge line, but I doubt Bridle Path residents would want(or need )that

This network is a take-off on this map. I'm still working out all the kinks.

Questions, comments, concerns?



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Originally Posted by trainrover View Post
...rage for only Canadian cities and their....

(Canada might cover an immense are, but it sure ain't the rest of the world . . . ooooo, Canadians're so worldy.)
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Originally Posted by trainrover View Post
My understanding is that Canada has yet to drum up mandating anything (errr, a pencil sharpener?) to do with public transport. I suggest you try living some place where its transport's always dealt with.

I'd bet you're right. Its elevated, surface and underground networks were dilipidated up until just over three years ago, and I wouldn't be surprised were its disintegration further progressed since.
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I'm surprised too, I thought they'd been monitoring their stations for ages now.
WTF is your problem?
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Old November 5th, 2007, 07:48 PM   #457
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Isaidso, I will be the first to admit that from most of your posts, my viewpoint is nowhere near as left as yours, but I do agree that Toronto would have benefitied from another east-west line in the downtown.

I'm not sure how familiar you are with Toronto's history, but we were to have an underground LRT (to later be converted to HRT) under Queen St, but it got pushed up to Bloor and forgotten about. In the 60s it was ressurected as part of Toronto's transportation strategy, which would have been a project of both rapid transit and highways and included the Queen line, but alas virtually nothing of this plan ever saw the light of day.

Even today I still believe a Queen line would have been more benificial than the Bloor. Yes, Bloor was seeing more growth and transit usage than Queen at the time, but on the overall city plan it just doesn't work. In the north, the city and suburbs grow out of Highway 11 (Yonge St), but in the east and west they grow out of Highway 2 (Lake Shore), and not off of Highway 5 (Bloor/Danforth). Today there is plenty of argument and demand to extend the Yonge line, but not so much the Bloor-Danforth. Not only is there more along Queen for the most part, but if it was built there would be more potential to extend it than where it is along B-D, since it is the main avenue for the eastern and western suburbs.

Finally, take a look at Toronto on Virtual Earth with a fast PC (http://local.live.com). You will see dozens of skyscrapers and high density along Yonge, but along the lake shore, Queen, or Bloor it doesn't come close to comparing. In fact, Queen today has similar density to Bloor, minus the subway. If a subway had been built, I'm certain Queen would look like what Yonge does today with ultra high density development.
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You are genius too Electrify, never would have thought of this if not for your thread.
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Old November 5th, 2007, 08:50 PM   #458
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Originally Posted by Electrify View Post
I'm not sure how familiar you are with Toronto's history, but we were to have an underground LRT (to later be converted to HRT) under Queen St, but it got pushed up to Bloor and forgotten about. In the 60s it was ressurected as part of Toronto's transportation strategy, which would have been a project of both rapid transit and highways and included the Queen line, but alas virtually nothing of this plan ever saw the light of day.

Even today I still believe a Queen line would have been more benificial than the Bloor. Yes, Bloor was seeing more growth and transit usage than Queen at the time, but on the overall city plan it just doesn't work. In the north, the city and suburbs grow out of Highway 11 (Yonge St), but in the east and west they grow out of Highway 2 (Lake Shore), and not off of Highway 5 (Bloor/Danforth). Today there is plenty of argument and demand to extend the Yonge line, but not so much the Bloor-Danforth. Not only is there more along Queen for the most part, but if it was built there would be more potential to extend it than where it is along B-D, since it is the main avenue for the eastern and western suburbs.
Bloor was chosen due to the fact that east of Queen, only Kingston would feed into the line, while there were already several routes terminating at Luttrell Loop(near today's Main Street station), to feed into the streetcar. The suburbs were growing out of Danforth Road in the east, and traffic on Bloor-Danforth(both transit and cars) was increasing more rapidly. Queen in the east is also cut off by the lake, and Kingston Road provides the only alignment to extend the line. It was felt(and with good reason) that Kingston is too far south to adequately serve Scarborough with HRT, so for these reasons, Danforth was chosen.

The reason there is no talk of extending B-D right now is because the SRT is in the way, and they apparently decided to replace the current fleet. If it weren't for that, B-D would've already been extended to STC and maybe even Malvern.



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Finally, take a look at Toronto on Virtual Earth with a fast PC (http://local.live.com). You will see dozens of skyscrapers and high density along Yonge, but along the lake shore, Queen, or Bloor it doesn't come close to comparing. In fact, Queen today has similar density to Bloor, minus the subway. If a subway had been built, I'm certain Queen would look like what Yonge does today with ultra high density development.
Queen obviously has similar density to Bloor. However, Bloor is much more developed than Queen at this point(a subway will change that). Yonge is the city's main street, so it shouldn't be surprising that it's the most developed. That does not negate what Bloor has accomplished, though. Historically, it is Queen that is Toronto's east-west main street, with Bloor second. However, development was moving north, and it covers more of the city and that's why it was selected for the east-west line. Kingston Road will soon be dense enough to support a busy LRT line, as well as Coxwell/O'Connor, and the Beach LRT(see my post above). With these three lines feeding it from the east, there shouldn't be any problems this time around.
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Old November 5th, 2007, 10:15 PM   #459
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has it ever occurred to you that people simply don't respond to your posts because it is like trying to have an academic discussion with a brain damaged troglodyte who is incapable of anything but childish put downs and arrogant, narrow minded, mass delusion? I'll save you the trouble of locating a dictionary. Troglodyte refers to a very slow, unintelligent, dimwitted person. A primitive cave dweller. There, I've simplified things for you. I'll even add a paragraph so you don't short circuit something you're in desperately short supply of: brain cells.

It's always a shock to leave the professional world around me and experience how thick other people really are. Then again, any 7 year old has internet access. Perhaps you are 7? Chat rooms allow exposure to the most pea-brained toxic people like yourself. I have no other option than to put you on IGNORE. If you don't understand what that means. It means that I won't have to suffer through your agonizingly stupid posts any longer. It's not my fault you feel so inadequate around me and need to resort to defensive mudslingling. Some people just aren't bright enough, educated enough, or refined enough for me to waste a nanosecond on. Back to the trailer park, mister.

Any messages you post, I won't see. You're more than welcome to respond, but you'll be talking to yourself. I bet you'll try though.

Why all that effort to make a point nobody, including yourself is going to buy? Get whatever you need to out of your system by all means...but try and be a little honest in the process. A: We all know I'm not stupid, and B: You aren't putting me on ignore either. I can take insults, but isn't dishonesty beneath you?

I will assume that you make only sweeping generalizations about the TTC and Torontonians, and overly negative ones at that for two reasons...1: You lack indepth knowledge about the subject (where I will certainly outgun you), and 2: something has triggered an irrational response to the whole thing, which is why all we here from you is too much hyperbole, sky-is-falling remarks. Something is not right.

Now, there are very good arguements why subway lines under King, Queen, Dundas, College, and Wellesley would not be either a priority in terms of subway building, or even necessarilly beneficial or an improvement even if it were physically/financially feasable to do so.

And LRT in Toronto is not a compromise as you assert, but rather a required service that is specifically geared to providing that service, that neither buses nor subways could perform the same way.

Toronto has unique travel patterns, land use, geography, politics and demographics which make direct comparisons with other cities not very helpful in terms of assessing the specific transit needs of Toronto.

This can all be discussed in a mature and non-threatening manner....all you have to do is sign on.




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Old November 6th, 2007, 02:04 AM   #460
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what a sec 2 lines into Pickering and none in to Mississauga???
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