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Old November 6th, 2007, 05:42 AM   #461
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and you have a problem with that because...
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Old November 6th, 2007, 03:48 PM   #462
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none go into Mississauga centre where there is a real build up of people....
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Old November 6th, 2007, 05:40 PM   #463
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MCC shouldn't be served by TTC in the first place.
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Old November 8th, 2007, 02:44 AM   #464
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oh i thought it was a regional plan...
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Old November 8th, 2007, 06:00 AM   #465
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Muggings don't signal crime epidemic, TTC says
Commission defends safety record despite eight robberies in two weeks on subway, including swarmings by groups of teens
5 November 2007
The Globe and Mail

A series of muggings at subway stations in recent weeks is not a sign that crime on the public transit system is getting out of control, Toronto Transit Commission officials say.

In the past two weeks, police have reported at least eight instances in which people were mugged, many of them swarmed by groups of teens at subway stations – or while riding subway trains – across the city.

TTC chairman Adam Giambrone acknowledged that the list of reported crimes – including an incident at Kennedy Station on Tuesday afternoon when four young men attacked two others over a cellphone – was longer than he would expect.

Two or three a week would not be unusual, he said.

“My understanding is that crime is not growing exponentially. But at the commission, we have various security issues,” Mr. Giambrone said, adding that he is notified of every incident. “Proportionately,” he said, “I believe crime is actually steady or falling on the system.”

While the TTC would not release figures for 2007, the crime rate on the transit system rose in 2006. The agency recorded 1,601 crimes of all descriptions against passengers in 2006, for a crime rate of 0.36 crimes per 100,000 riders, an increase from 0.29 in 2005 and 0.24 in 2004. The rates more than double when crimes against TTC staff are included.

An assault or other crime against a driver or a collector happens at least every other day, Mr. Giambrone said. Incidents range from a slap in the face to more serious attacks: In May, a TTC collector was stabbed at Lawrence Station and his booth set on fire.

However, the centre of the TTC's crime-fighting initiatives – plans to add 8,500 new surveillance cameras on vehicles and in subway stations – has run into controversy, and not just because of the $33.6-million cost, $6.4-million of which is being covered by Ottawa.

The province's Office of the Information and Privacy Commissioner launched an investigation into the TTC's camera program after a complaint from the London-based advocacy group Privacy International.

The group argues that the TTC's plans are “disproportionate” and violate privacy laws, and that the transit agency has ignored studies suggesting the usefulness of cameras in fighting crime is “marginal.”

Toronto police, who have been experimenting with surveillance cameras in certain high-crime areas around the city, say that cameras are useful in investigations and that footage has helped lead to arrests in killings, sexual assaults, armed robberies and even the rescue of abducted children.

In April, TTC cameras recorded a stabbing at Kennedy subway station, and a 26-year-old man was arrested a few days later.

The cameras are not the only security measures the TTC is bringing in. In addition to being more mindful of safety concerns as it refurbishes or builds new subway stations, the transit agency is dramatically increasing its complement of special constables – who are unarmed but have police-like powers on TTC property.

The agency has added 22 in the past two years, bringing the force to 98, with plans – not yet approved by the city's number crunchers – to add another 20 in 2008.

Eventually, it hopes to have 174 special constables patrolling subway stations and bus and streetcar routes.

Mugged on the subway

A scan of recent police crime reports shows a level of violent crime on the TTC that some may find disturbing.

Wilson
Oct. 20, 10 p.m. 13-year-old boy beaten and robbed of wallet, iPod, phone, sweater and shoes.

Yorkdale
Oct. 21, 9:15 p.m. 26-year-old man robbed of cash.

Wellesley
Oct. 25, 5:30 p.m. 15-year-old girl fends off attempt to steal backpack.

Sherbourne
Oct. 20, 12:30 p.m. 18-year-old man robbed of phone and metropass.

Broadview
Oct. 24, 2:45 p.m. 13-year-old girl robbed of iPod.
Oct. 29, 9:30 p.m. 17-year-old girl robbed of a bag.

Kennedy
Oct. 29, 12:10 a.m. Three teenage males robbed of cash and a phone between stations.
Oct. 30, 4 p.m. When a 17- and 20-year-old male refused to hand over a phone, they were thrown down and kicked repeatedly.
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Old November 8th, 2007, 06:50 PM   #466
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oh i thought it was a regional plan...
Not for the TTC. But it is a component of the regional network.
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Old November 9th, 2007, 06:09 AM   #467
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Isaidso, I will be the first to admit that from most of your posts, my viewpoint is nowhere near as left as yours, but I do agree that Toronto would have benefitied from another east-west line in the downtown.

I'm not sure how familiar you are with Toronto's history, but we were to have an underground LRT (to later be converted to HRT) under Queen St, but it got pushed up to Bloor and forgotten about. In the 60s it was ressurected as part of Toronto's transportation strategy, which would have been a project of both rapid transit and highways and included the Queen line, but alas virtually nothing of this plan ever saw the light of day.

Even today I still believe a Queen line would have been more benificial than the Bloor. Yes, Bloor was seeing more growth and transit usage than Queen at the time, but on the overall city plan it just doesn't work. In the north, the city and suburbs grow out of Highway 11 (Yonge St), but in the east and west they grow out of Highway 2 (Lake Shore), and not off of Highway 5 (Bloor/Danforth). Today there is plenty of argument and demand to extend the Yonge line, but not so much the Bloor-Danforth. Not only is there more along Queen for the most part, but if it was built there would be more potential to extend it than where it is along B-D, since it is the main avenue for the eastern and western suburbs.

Finally, take a look at Toronto on Virtual Earth with a fast PC (http://local.live.com). You will see dozens of skyscrapers and high density along Yonge, but along the lake shore, Queen, or Bloor it doesn't come close to comparing. In fact, Queen today has similar density to Bloor, minus the subway. If a subway had been built, I'm certain Queen would look like what Yonge does today with ultra high density development.
You'll get zero argument from me that the Queen line should have been built before the Bloor-Danforth line. Queen makes so much more sense. Do you know why Bloor was chosen instead?

If a line had been built along Queen, we would also have seen the CBD expand east and west rather than continuing to densify where the subway stations are. Our skyline would have stretched along the lake as Chicago's does. The skyline is starting to do this anyway despite a lack of subway here because the location is so compelling.

Of course there have been massive benefits to Bloor from the construction of a subway, but that could be said for any area where subways exist. We will eventually get an east west line on Queen. All the streetcars in the world are not going to be able to handle the volume we will be facing in 10-20 years. It's already bad. I already blade from Roncesvalles to Yonge if I am in a hurry. The streetcar is nice, but will not get me there on time.

It's interesting that I come off 'left' to many people. Some of my politics is very very left (transit, civil liberties, minimum wage, environment, etc). In other areas such as the economy, taxes, and military I am very very right. I don't see most of these issues as left or right, just viewpoints that make the most sense.
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Old November 9th, 2007, 04:47 PM   #468
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You'll get zero argument from me that the Queen line should have been built before the Bloor-Danforth line. Queen makes so much more sense. Do you know why Bloor was chosen instead?

If a line had been built along Queen, we would also have seen the CBD expand east and west rather than continuing to densify where the subway stations are. Our skyline would have stretched along the lake as Chicago's does. The skyline is starting to do this anyway despite a lack of subway here because the location is so compelling.
I can tell you why Bloor was chosen instead - ridership figures and business case.

Just ignore n00b and his uninformed delusions, he does not know his history at all.

There was a long fight between the TTC and City Hall over the east-west arterial subway. The City had Queen at the center of its master plan, and was gung-ho about the subway running along Queen. The TTC was not interested due to the skyrocketing ridership figures along Bloor at the time and that the streetcar services along there then would not be able to keep up if it continues to grow at the rate that it was growing. The City tried to compromise with "The Flying U", where the subway starts at Bloor on both east and west ends, but does a U-ey through the core via Queen. TTC still said no way, pointing to its ridership figures and current travel patterns, infrastructure capacity limits, etc., and I'd imagine the Prince Edward Viaduct may have been part of their argument, they eventually convinced the city to do the Bloor-Uni subway (they were originally interlined so that downtown-bound commutes did not require a transfer, but this was discontinued half-a-year into service, leaving a white elephant in the famous ghost station known as Lower Bay).

As for the skyline spreading along the lake because of the compelling location, there is a reason it is compelling. The Harbourfront Car was the start of it, a new kind of streetcar line in the TTC's network, unique when first built in that it was segregated from traffic. The next new line followed suit, Spadina, which even interlines with the Harbourfront car's eastern half. St.Clair West is trying to repeat the same feat, although with great difficulty and is not yet finished. This two streetcar services on Spadina and Harbourfront provided very reliable, very local, and very attractive transportation in the entertainment and west downtown waterfront districts, which is one of the longest prime concentration points of condominium developments. This spilled onto King Street with its redevelopment from an industrial area to residential, which has seen its ridership on its streetcar route go through the roof to become the most heavily used in the network. Plans have been proposed (but not approved) for King to get dedicated lanes, and there's a good argument that it needs that a lot (even if not for the whole length of King propoer). Before that will happen, the West Waterfront LRT is likely to debut as the first product officiale of Transit City and provide even more juice to the downtown waterfront boom, with a possible revitalization in the Southern Parkdale area, and as east side waterfront development plans are being drawn up tailored around streetcar services (Cherry/West Don Lands, Queen's Quay East/East Bayfront). This is why the density is coming in like it is - brought to you by the magic of the streetcar, a compelling mode of transit.
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Old November 9th, 2007, 04:57 PM   #469
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Transit City is garbage.

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Subway
Yonge-Weston(Richmond Hill Centre-Pearson)
Don Mills-University-Spadina(Markham Centre-Vaughan Centre)

Questions, comments, concerns?
Do you realize that the arrangement of through-services here would require a drastic, complex, time-consuming, expensive, and grossly disruptive yet completely useless renovation and expansion of TTC Union?
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Old November 9th, 2007, 06:19 PM   #470
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Just ignore n00b and his uninformed delusions, he does not know his history at all.
Don't I? You are getting as ignorant as kettal with your replies.



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Do you realize that the arrangement of through-services here would require a drastic, complex, time-consuming, expensive, and grossly disruptive yet completely useless renovation and expansion of TTC Union?
This arrangement makes more efficient use of the existing University line and allows more of the city access to all of downtown, instead of just through Union. Speaking of Union, it would have a three platform configuration on both levels.

I can't believe I have to point these things out to you.
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Old November 10th, 2007, 07:05 AM   #471
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Don't I? You are getting as ignorant as kettal with your replies.
Your self-reference just proves my point. Your post does not address the reasons at all, and is proof that you do not know the history of this city nor why Bloor was chosen.





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This arrangement makes more efficient use of the existing University line and allows more of the city access to all of downtown, instead of just through Union. Speaking of Union, it would have a three platform configuration on both levels.

I can't believe I have to point these things out to you.
except it doesn't make more efficient use of Union at all, nor is it realistic in terms of construction and operations, genius. You wouldn't know that though, as you don't understand the first thing about engineering nor construction.

You trying to point things out to people is like a monkey trying to point out to people that its shit don't stink.
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Old November 10th, 2007, 12:23 PM   #472
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Design off the rails
10 November 2007
National Post

Jose Ongpin has a beef -- and it has to do with the goulash of Univers, Futura, Gill and Helvetica that typographically define Toronto's 68.3-kilometre, 69-station subway system.

"There's a lack of consistency," he says. "That's the problem the city needs to address, for the sake of commuters."

The amalgam of typefaces and tiles has grown over the years as new stations have opened. The designers of the various subway stops simply didn't pay heed to sticking to one font. The result, says Ongpin, as an OCAD student and a TTC rider, is that Toronto's underground system doesn't have a clear identity.

Ongpin decided to merge his passion for graphic design and public transit by creating a visual history of the subway's tiles and lettering.

To Ongpin, the typeface used in the original 12 stations, which opened in 1954, has a real flavour of the Toronto of that time: "It has a kind of Art Deco look to it," he explains. "At that time, every architect out there was thinking about modernism, simplicity, elegance -- and they were establishing an identity just like the Paris Metro or the London Underground."

The London system, he says, helped people to see the subway not only as a source of transportation but as a means of building the city's identity. It had real artistic direction, with a uniform set of fonts and tiles. By contrast, Toronto lost its way when it added new fonts (including the London Underground's Gill) as the system grew.

The original TTC typeface has since become something of a historical treasure -- but also a bit of a mystery. No one knows who created it. There is no copyright.

"They somehow just designed it and used it in the subway but never thought it would be a popular typeface," Ongpin says.

Ongpin believes the TTC should adopt one font --and use it throughout the system. He looks to renovations, such as the one at the Bloor station, as redesigns that pay homage to the past, albeit in an updated form. "They eliminated all the original architecture," he says, "but they preserved that original typeface."

Moreover, he says, the city has squandered some opportunities to make more attractive stations.

"Rosedale, actually, is one of the ugliest renovations I've ever seen," he says of the station's mildew-coloured tiles. "The original Rosedale was greenish, but light green, using Vitrolite tiles." Vitrolite was a glass-coated tile made during the '40s and '50s. And to add insult to injury, Rosedale replaced the original TTC font with Univers.

Interestingly, the original TTC font has made a comeback with its adoption in the new rapid transit stations in Scarborough.

While Ongpin concedes that fonts may not be the most important matter in public discourse, they are just one more small thing that hampers Toronto from having a strong identity.

"As a tourist, you go to Toronto, and you see this special typeface that we have [at the Yonge station] and then you go to Dundas and say, 'What the heck is this?'"
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Old November 10th, 2007, 01:38 PM   #473
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First Joe Clark (not the former PM, someone else), now this guy. These guys seriously make a mountain out of a mole. Jose Ongpin screams about inconsistency in fonts while Joe Clark screams about historical preservation of them. What neither realizes is, that although they themselves may consider this the most important thing since the nazis launched genocide against the jewish, most commuters don't even notice and really couldn't care less as long as these are clearly legible and don't look weird - something that inconsistencies won't cause.
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"There's a lack of consistency," he says. "That's the problem the city needs to address, for the sake of commuters."
For the sake of commuters? Because you know a fraction of a percentage of these commuters can even tell the fonts apart, and far fewer would know the names of the fonts. These matter to you, not to commuters. They'd much rather see changes they'd notice, like improved visibility of signage in some cases.

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The amalgam of typefaces and tiles has grown over the years as new stations have opened. The designers of the various subway stops simply didn't pay heed to sticking to one font. The result, says Ongpin, as an OCAD student and a TTC rider, is that Toronto's underground system doesn't have a clear identity.
Designers pay heed to the station's relationship to its neighborhood, like they are supposed to do. The station's relationship to other stations hundreds of meters or a few kilometers away is not worth worrying about. Each station should look different because each neighborhood is unique, and stations should reflect this. Some examples of where this is done well include King (Hockey Hall of Fame references incorporated into design), Queen (Eaton Center references incorporated into design), and Rosedale (gentler, more nature-toned design scheme). The design is what should dictate the font. The system should not set one font for the whole system, except for standard signage (like, for example, exit signs, eastbound/westbound/northbound/southbound sings, other mass-produced elements), and of course, the TTC crest - the true icon of the system's identity. Fonts for station names arguably should be different for every station if the design makes that appropriate to reflect the serviced neighborhood of a station.

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To Ongpin, the typeface used in the original 12 stations, which opened in 1954, has a real flavour of the Toronto of that time: "It has a kind of Art Deco look to it," he explains. "At that time, every architect out there was thinking about modernism, simplicity, elegance -- and they were establishing an identity just like the Paris Metro or the London Underground."

The London system, he says, helped people to see the subway not only as a source of transportation but as a means of building the city's identity. It had real artistic direction, with a uniform set of fonts and tiles. By contrast, Toronto lost its way when it added new fonts (including the London Underground's Gill) as the system grew.
It's not the font. Some of the stations in London are indeed architectural treasures. I've been through some of them like King's Cross. However, this has little to do with their font. Part of the identity of the Tube is actually in its rollingstock, and, much like the TTC, in its logo. Fonts establish an element of a style, true, but they do not, on their own, an identity make.

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The original TTC typeface has since become something of a historical treasure -- but also a bit of a mystery. No one knows who created it. There is no copyright.

"They somehow just designed it and used it in the subway but never thought it would be a popular typeface," Ongpin says.
How times have changed indeed. Nobody goes to the trouble of creating a new typeface anymore, there are thousands to choose from now.

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Ongpin believes the TTC should adopt one font --and use it throughout the system.
No way, like aforementioned, the individual station's design (which should be somewhat dictated by the influences of its surroundings) dictates the font, not the system itself.



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While Ongpin concedes that fonts may not be the most important matter in public discourse, they are just one more small thing that hampers Toronto from having a strong identity.

"As a tourist, you go to Toronto, and you see this special typeface that we have [at the Yonge station] and then you go to Dundas and say, 'What the heck is this?'"
Hardly. Our identity is strong in the almighty crest and the mighty-yet-simplistic rolling stock.
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Old November 10th, 2007, 06:35 PM   #474
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Some history ...

Source : http://transit.toronto.on.ca/subway/5701.shtml







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Old November 10th, 2007, 08:37 PM   #475
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These guys seriously make a mountain out of a mole. What neither realizes is, that although they themselves may consider this the most important thing since the nazis launched genocide against the jewish, most commuters don't even notice and really couldn't care less as long as these are clearly legible and don't look weird - something that inconsistencies won't cause.

Yea, while this is certainly not an "issue", as issues go, there's something to be said for details. As long as we know the difference between the two.

I think the TTC really blew it by trashing the original Vitrolite stations and platforms. Toronto, as I beleive was the only city in the world designing and building subways directly following the war, had a unique post-war modernist design going on....a sort of utilitarian simplicity that had one foot in the waning deco period and one foot in the early modernist movement.

We are demolishing our early modernist heritage before we realize just how good it actually was....and in Toronto, that represents a fairly large chunk of our built heritage...we should start being far less cavelier about it (which I guess we have at least started to be thankfully).



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"There's a lack of consistency," he says. "That's the problem the city needs to address, for the sake of commuters."

I suppose it really isn't fair to characterize this as a quote from hkskyline, as he really just searches out articles on line that has some sort of negative slant towards Toronto...and then cut and paste it (for reasons I have yet to understand)....he really has little or no understanding of the topic, nor an understanding of what makes Toronto tic, or why things are the way they are, which is largely in part to history. He tends to characterize Toronto by what it isn't, rather than by what it is.




Quote:
No way, like aforementioned, the individual station's design (which should be somewhat dictated by the influences of its surroundings) dictates the font, not the system itself.

I agree...while there should be some universal identifiers that lend some consistancy and image to the system, there's merit to stations having some relationship to the area they service. Speaking of which, I see there is something going on at Museum Station...is this the ROM-inspired reno we have seen in the past?




Quote:
Hardly. Our identity is strong in the almighty crest and the mighty-yet-simplistic rolling stock.

Yea...to think tourists are actually going to make a note of typeface inconsistancies and even then, to characterize the system because of it. I think our unique streetcars and other TTC-specific things are what form image opinions. Even the "Red Rocket" and "Ride the Rocket" sayings have managed to stay quite of-the-moment, even though it has transfered from the original red Gloucster subway cars to the streetcars.

And yes, the TTC crest is indeed a great classic.





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Old November 10th, 2007, 08:43 PM   #476
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Open the newspaper, and it's quite obvious that coverage of TTC isn't always so positive. In fact, I'd think 'subways running smoothly' won't even be a valid headline to start. But when the ounce of good news arrives now and then, it's usually a promise of money that will take a few elections to arrive.

Don't think there's a basis to say the Canadian media is depicting Toronto in a particular bad light, is it?
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Old November 10th, 2007, 09:24 PM   #477
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Your self-reference just proves my point. Your post does not address the reasons at all, and is proof that you do not know the history of this city nor why Bloor was chosen.
Um, no. Your post is proof that you don't want serious discussion about anything. You just say "you don't know, bla bla bla".



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except it doesn't make more efficient use of Union at all, nor is it realistic in terms of construction and operations, genius. You wouldn't know that though, as you don't understand the first thing about engineering nor construction.
Actually, that's a very efficient use. A center platform for exiting, and the two side platforms for entering. Then two levels of course, for the two lines. There shouldn't have to be renovations after this arrangement is in place.
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Old November 10th, 2007, 09:53 PM   #478
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Open the newspaper, and it's quite obvious that coverage of TTC isn't always so positive.

Well, we already know why the media resorts to sensationalism and negatives in its reporting...the question is, why do YOU cherry pick negative stories to support your long-standing and exclusively negative slant on the city, rather than presenting a more balanced and constructive arguement?

This usually indicates an agenda.

Are you trying to sell a product or use topics you don't really care about to make political statements?

Are you one of those people who in their love for the city, are always on its case because you just want better, but make the usual mistake of being too negative, and forgetting the positives, which is of course, not constructive in the long run?

Or, are you just one of those people who just loves to hate Toronto, and can only speak of it in terms of negatives?




"Um, no. Your post is proof that you don't want serious discussion about anything. "

I'm not trying to get in the middle here, but com'on noob...his posts are waaaay to indepth and topic specific to make an arguement that he isn't interested in a serious discussion about the topic....he obviously takes it very seriously.




KGB
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Old November 11th, 2007, 05:38 AM   #479
hkskyline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KGB View Post
Well, we already know why the media resorts to sensationalism and negatives in its reporting...the question is, why do YOU cherry pick negative stories to support your long-standing and exclusively negative slant on the city, rather than presenting a more balanced and constructive arguement?

This usually indicates an agenda.

Are you trying to sell a product or use topics you don't really care about to make political statements?

Are you one of those people who in their love for the city, are always on its case because you just want better, but make the usual mistake of being too negative, and forgetting the positives, which is of course, not constructive in the long run?

Or, are you just one of those people who just loves to hate Toronto, and can only speak of it in terms of negatives?




"Um, no. Your post is proof that you don't want serious discussion about anything. "

I'm not trying to get in the middle here, but com'on noob...his posts are waaaay to indepth and topic specific to make an arguement that he isn't interested in a serious discussion about the topic....he obviously takes it very seriously.




KGB
So can you point out some facts that they're reporting wrong? Is it positive from your mouth although it is negative from so many others? Or is it an illusion that the TTC is cash-strapped and can't improve its infrastructure to cope with population growth and the in-fill planning strategy?

Haven't seen you seriously tackle any of the issues raised in the last series of articles either. Perhaps you can start.
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Old November 11th, 2007, 07:42 AM   #480
Gil
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In defense of hkskyline, the majority of the articles are just trawled off the internet from newspaper sites. There hasn't been much in terms of good press for the TTC lately. The only source of occasional good press for the TTC usually comes from Ed Drass' column in the Tuesday and Thursday Metro paper. Hkskyline is simply the messenger. I appreciate the work to sort through all the various press stories and then post them in their appropriate threads, it saves me from having to search through all of them.

If you think the news here is bad, you should see some of the stuff the press in New York write about the MTA!
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