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Old December 4th, 2007, 07:29 AM   #541
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TTC commits to saving on its energy bills
Last Updated: Monday, December 3, 2007 | 1:41 PM ET
CBC News

The TTC frequently reminds people of the cars it keeps off the roads every day simply by having subway, bus and streetcar service. But now it says it will go even further in its environmental campaign.

The commission says it will begin introducing new subway cars and streetcars with technical improvements that will lower electricity use.

Electricity consumption is the main focus for the public transportation system, which hopes to save money by cutting its use.

The TTC is the second-biggest consumer of electricity in Toronto — after the city's water department — and they're trying to conserve, partly to save money and partly to help reduce greenhouse gas emissions and reduce pollution.

The TTC is also committing that it will get 25 per cent of its electricity from the purchase of more expensive renewable sources, even though that commitment may increase costs by as much as $2.5 million per year.

TTC chair Adam Giambrone says people want renewable energy and he's predicting they are willing to pay for it.
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Old December 4th, 2007, 01:43 PM   #542
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrify View Post
[i]`North York Mayor Mel Lastman says the (Sheppard) route should be rejected because it would spell an end to many of the quiet, residential neighbourhoods lining Sheppard Avenue. Instead, he says, Metro should ease traffic congestion for commuters heading downtown by building a transit line next to the Don Valley Parkway.'

...

The Downtown line was criticized for "focusing development pressure on the core (which) would violate Metro's strategy of decentralizing office growth and throw a wrench into North York's plan for a satellite downtown of office towers and high-rise housing in the Yonge Street-Sheppard Avenue Area".

...

http://transit.toronto.on.ca/subway/5111.shtml

So Mel was AGAINST the Sheppard line, Toronto was focused on developing suburbs rather than downtown,

Transit Toronto seems to have conflicted sources on this... the more widely accepted version of the story is here, found at this link also on Transit Toronto - http://transit.toronto.on.ca/subway/5110.shtml

Quote:
Originally Posted by Transit Toronto
The fact that Toronto has a Sheppard subway at all is due to the efforts of Mel Lastman. When he was Mayor of North York, he had a grand vision of turning his sleepy suburban borough into a city in its own right, with a downtown to challenge that of the City of Toronto. To his credit, he understood, more than many other people who have tried similar feats, that a downtown can’t be just for cars — pedestrians must be accommodated, as must people who use public transit. So he located his downtown on a major rapid transit line, the Yonge subway, and convinced the TTC to build an additional station, North York Centre, to service it. To further enhance his downtown, he latched onto the proposal to build a subway along Sheppard Avenue between the Spadina subway and the Scarborough Town Centre. By building a rapid-transit crossroads, he believed that development would bloom in his new downtown.

The Network 2011 proposal might have been built had Bill Davis stayed on as premier of Ontario one more year. The fall of the Conservative government of 1985 brought the Liberal Party to power, and they blanched at Network 2011’s $2.1 billion sticker price. The Sheppard line itself was priced at one billion 1985 dollars. The proposal was delayed and deferred, until a scaled-down version was proposed by the Liberals in 1990. Then the Liberals too were defeated, by the NDP and Bob Rae. The Sheppard subway was delayed for another four years.

By the time the NDP granted enough funding to get the shovels into the ground, 1994, the price tag had ballooned and both Queen’s Park and Metro Toronto were reeling from the effects of a major recession. There wasn’t enough money to build all of the needed subways at once, so to get construction started, and to make sure that all of the players within Metro were satisfied with the spending they received, the first phase of the Sheppard subway was cut back from Victoria Park to Don Mills. A shortened Eglinton West subway started construction from the Spadina line to Black Creek Drive at the same time. This political compromise was all for naught, however. As soon as the Conservatives under Mike Harris won the 1995 election, the Eglinton West subway project was cancelled and the province dropped all capital funding of public transit. Sheppard was itself almost cancelled, but Mel Lastman’s lobbying saved the line. After considerable political jockeying (where, at one point, Metro council agreed to build the Sheppard subway tunnels but not the tracks or the stations), the line’s future was confirmed. Construction continued unabated through to 2002.
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Old December 4th, 2007, 02:19 PM   #543
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Originally Posted by ssiguy2 View Post
I think the Sheppard line is a complete failure.
It would be an effective transit corridor if it went anywhere but it doesn't. If it went to STC in the east and joined up with the Spadina ext or preferably the coming Jane LRT.
No, this ship has (for better or for worse) sailed, and it is obvious that the corridor cannot sustain a subway. I'd have liked to see it, but a change of strategy is badly needed - especially considering the competitive tax incentive/advantage the downtown
core can be expected to re-capture after tax reforms start to come into full force in 2015 (or 2012 from the federal level, 2015 is for the municipal level controls). Sheppard should go towards Vic Park as originally planned, but then swing down Vic Park on the way to downtown, via Flemingdon, and via Pape.


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Originally Posted by ssiguy2 View Post
Now all it will do is slow people down from getting from one end of North York to the other.
Going from Malvern to YorkU will now require LRT to DonMills then Sheppard line to Yonge then transfer to a bus to Spadina and then head north.
It will be slow, tiresome, and require endless transfers. Thios is exactly the thing that inhibits people from taking transit. This kind of a thing not only makes transit slower but is also viewed as "work" by its patrons.
OMG!!! You said something I agree with!!! All hope is not lost on the LRTs though. Transit City's "as is" proposal right now should not be considered the final picture. I have yet to see anything to confirm the rumour, but some people have suggested the TTC is out to build the Sheppard LRT as quickly as possible to get rid of any future pressure on extending the subway further east. I don't know what their take on extensions further south would be though (probably a lot more favourable than eastward though, at anyrate).
The LRTs are not a lost cause though, because if the Finch West LRT is extended east of Yonge-Finch Terminal, to Don Mills (still along the Hydro Corridor, I'd imagine), the Sheppard and Finch (via Don Mills LRT interline/overlap service) and Jane lines can all interline into one another. Interline with Morningside and Kingston Road and you can almost have a complete loop (just missing the part from Jane Bloor to Roncesvalles), terminating the rest of the Finch West line at York University (as it is a subway connection-to-be), or alternating their interlining (not necessarily recommended, but doable)

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Originally Posted by ssiguy2 View Post
Reconfigure TransitCity so that the Sheppard Line is transfered to LRT and goes to Jane to make it a true rapid transit corridor. It would be a crosstown LRT line and be truly rapid. You can have all the rapid transit systems in the world but if they are short with endless transfers to other lines the patron gets tired and the ride is anything but rapid.
I am starting to see this idea come up in increased frequency, and people just don't understand that it is not so simple. First off, it is difficult to justify the decomissioning of relatively new infrastructure at great cost to decomission as well as after the great cost to commission in the first place, especially if the long-term forecast is going to see such infrastructure restored at a future date. Yes, the Eglinton Line is being designed as a subway-upgrade-compatible LRT, however, that hardly means for a second that Sheppard is a LRT-downgrade-compatible subway, far from it. Lowering the platforms (among other things, as services such as plumbing are likely inside the platform) is complicated and time consuming - and cannot take place while service is still running (which is the most important part). If the designers are fly, they can design the Eglinton LRT to have most of the necessary upgrades put into place while the thing is still in service. If done in pre-cast concrete component platforms (they could probably do up to 2m wide components, which would require somewhere around 75 components per platform), they might be able to do the cross-over in a week or two. This is a comparatively short service disruption. Converting the Sheppard HRT into LRT, which not only requires lowering the platforms, but heightening the tunnels (streetcars with pantographs require taller tunnels... I can confirm this first hand as I can compare to the Tokyo subway, which do use pantographs on a supreme majority of the system), would surely take close to a year (best case), or more. The bus operations that would be required to supplement the subway provide no meaningful savings and the bus fleet hardly has any vehicles to spare to send such a large platoon to the Sheppard corridor.
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Old December 4th, 2007, 02:35 PM   #544
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It was redundent to build a line at Eglinton because the bus lines that run on the road would have to run anyways. Not just the 34 Eglinton East, but also the 100 Flemington Park, 51 Leslie, 54 Lawrance East, and the 56 (I forgot where). You can't build a Eglinton line without significant desruptions to existing travel patterns, where as a Sheppard line only affects the 84 Sheppard.
No, it was not just the 84 Sheppard. Also, you are talking about Eglinton EAST routes, the subway that got cancelled was for Eglinton WEST... HELLOOOOOOOOO

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Originally Posted by UD2 View Post
Plus, the Sheppard line have brought great convinence to me, (I live on Leslie and York Mills), and I thank the mayor for that.
Yep, because the whole city revolves around you, as long as you benefit from the subway it justifies the billion dollar investment the city made in this line, and its 10-million dollar annual shortfall thereafter every year. Nice to know you think so highly of yourself.

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Originally Posted by UD2 View Post
Again, as silly and stupid you think Mel Lastman is, he was still mayor of North York and then Toronto for over a decade. I'm not going to second guess him on whatever his plans are, and I don't believe he's dumb.

Maybe once you become mayor, I'll realize that I was mistaken =-)
Well, Mel Lastman was stupid enough to tell then-Councillor David Miller that he'd never be mayor because he "says stupid things"... in response, I believe, to him proposing a motion to renovate the transit connection between TTC Dundas West and GO Transit Bloor stations. Many people are familiar with this quote, and it is a testamate to Mel Lastman's overall stupidity - as Miller has proven himself to be a far better Mayor than Lastman ever was. Lastman was regarded as a clown. Miller has gotten city hall to be taken more seriously, although not without problems of his own, far less problems than those that plagued Mel Lastman. If the smartest man is the man that admits he knows nothing, the dumbest man is the man who thinks he's smarter than everyone else. Lastman, obviously used to being Mayor for far too long and had the power consume his sanity long ago, thought he was smarter than everyone else. Obviously, he was wrong, and he's clearly proven he's an idiot. The Sheppard Subway is only one example in a long list of embarrasing screw-ups thanks to Mel Lastman. Other embarassments include his mishandling of Union Station's UPG contract, and those abomidable Mooses. "This is the greatest city in the world!"... it's like a doll with a ******* pullstring. Complete buffoon.
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Old December 5th, 2007, 12:27 AM   #545
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Originally Posted by TRZ View Post
No, it was not just the 84 Sheppard. Also, you are talking about Eglinton EAST routes, the subway that got cancelled was for Eglinton WEST... HELLOOOOOOOOO

Yep, because the whole city revolves around you, as long as you benefit from the subway it justifies the billion dollar investment the city made in this line, and its 10-million dollar annual shortfall thereafter every year. Nice to know you think so highly of yourself.



Well, Mel Lastman was stupid enough to tell then-Councillor David Miller that he'd never be mayor because he "says stupid things"... in response, I believe, to him proposing a motion to renovate the transit connection between TTC Dundas West and GO Transit Bloor stations. Many people are familiar with this quote, and it is a testamate to Mel Lastman's overall stupidity - as Miller has proven himself to be a far better Mayor than Lastman ever was. Lastman was regarded as a clown. Miller has gotten city hall to be taken more seriously, although not without problems of his own, far less problems than those that plagued Mel Lastman. If the smartest man is the man that admits he knows nothing, the dumbest man is the man who thinks he's smarter than everyone else. Lastman, obviously used to being Mayor for far too long and had the power consume his sanity long ago, thought he was smarter than everyone else. Obviously, he was wrong, and he's clearly proven he's an idiot. The Sheppard Subway is only one example in a long list of embarrasing screw-ups thanks to Mel Lastman. Other embarassments include his mishandling of Union Station's UPG contract, and those abomidable Mooses. "This is the greatest city in the world!"... it's like a doll with a ******* pullstring. Complete buffoon.
1. If we're talking about Eglinton West, when how does Sheppard East even come into play? They're for different purpose. So Plz stop

2. If you're so passionate about the Eglinton Subway, then you certainly are not thinking about the people who live in my area are you? So why does everything have to revolve around in stead? And if the Sheppard line has a 10 million deficit, what do you think the deficit of many other TTC services are? Why don't we just cancel them all? In fact, forget TTC, why don't we cancel health care as well? And public education? Those have deficit too

3. Again Mel Lastman was mayor for over a decade, and he did no worse than what Miller is doing now. And he had much harder times during his term than Miller does right now. He eased the amalgamation of the 5 cities into Greater Toronto very well. You think the city is short of money now?

now... people have opinions, please stop trying to make everyone think the way you do. It doesn't really matter that much. You now know how i think, and I know what your standpoint is. Please lets stop arguing.
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Old December 5th, 2007, 01:00 PM   #546
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1. If we're talking about Eglinton West, when how does Sheppard East even come into play? They're for different purpose. So Plz stop
You're not very familiar with the history here, obviously. Eglinton was scrapped while Sheppard was allowed to proceed, when this should have been reversed. It doesn't matter whether we're talking about east or west in this case (it does matter really, and it makes Eglinton's case even stronger still, since it would put more action onto U-S than Y, which doesn't need any extra stress like the Sheppard Line supplies), the point is that the corridor gets started, and after it is started, it can get extended. Both were to be extended as time went on.

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Originally Posted by UD2 View Post
2. If you're so passionate about the Eglinton Subway, then you certainly are not thinking about the people who live in my area are you?
Neither are you, actually, as there are a lot of people that lived there before the subway-spurred condo boom that never wanted the subway there in the first place - they still live there, and are not impressed by the change in the corridor. This is probably why Mel Lastman was against Sheppard in the early 80s but 10 years after that had turned into a supporter for it. You can write them off as NIMBYs, but some of their arguments are valid, and more importantly, there are far better places to drop a subway - Eglinton being a big one.
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Originally Posted by UD2 View Post
So why does everything have to revolve around in stead? And if the Sheppard line has a 10 million deficit, what do you think the deficit of many other TTC services are?
Yonge and Bloor-Danforth Lines turn profits, smart-guy.
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Originally Posted by UD2 View Post
Why don't we just cancel them all?
Because some lines do make money - these lines are outnumbered by the lines that lose money though. The main problem in balancing it out is that the loss-incurring lines feed the profitable ones, so you can't cut the loss-making lines without dragging the profitable ones into the red and hurting the system overall. Given the current management of the system, there is no way to realistically trace detailed patterns of where routes are getting fed from.
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Originally Posted by UD2 View Post
In fact, forget TTC, why don't we cancel health care as well? And public education? Those have deficit too
Health care and public education (excluding post-secondary) are not pay-to-use. The TTC is pay-to-use, so don't compare apples to oranges.

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Originally Posted by UD2 View Post
3. Again Mel Lastman was mayor for over a decade,
This is so central to your argument because, why?

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Originally Posted by UD2 View Post
now... people have opinions, please stop trying to make everyone think the way you do. It doesn't really matter that much. You now know how i think, and I know what your standpoint is. Please lets stop arguing.
You're posting opinions because you want others to hear your opinions and see if other people agree with your opinions. However, you, on several occasions in other threads, are very prone to spreading bad information - you run around talking like you're in the know but the majority of your so-called facts are actually outright false. I will speak up if I see a false statement try to be passed off as a fact. Mel Lastman being a total retard may be an opinion, but the Sheppard Subway being a bad idea is not an opinion, it is now an established fact as the TTC is clearly trying to abandon the line's future prospects.
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Old December 6th, 2007, 01:10 PM   #547
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You're not very familiar with the history here, obviously. Eglinton was scrapped while Sheppard was allowed to proceed, when this should have been reversed. It doesn't matter whether we're talking about east or west in this case (it does matter really, and it makes Eglinton's case even stronger still, since it would put more action onto U-S than Y, which doesn't need any extra stress like the Sheppard Line supplies), the point is that the corridor gets started, and after it is started, it can get extended. Both were to be extended as time went on.

Neither are you, actually, as there are a lot of people that lived there before the subway-spurred condo boom that never wanted the subway there in the first place - they still live there, and are not impressed by the change in the corridor. This is probably why Mel Lastman was against Sheppard in the early 80s but 10 years after that had turned into a supporter for it. You can write them off as NIMBYs, but some of their arguments are valid, and more importantly, there are far better places to drop a subway - Eglinton being a big one.
Yonge and Bloor-Danforth Lines turn profits, smart-guy.
Because some lines do make money - these lines are outnumbered by the lines that lose money though. The main problem in balancing it out is that the loss-incurring lines feed the profitable ones, so you can't cut the loss-making lines without dragging the profitable ones into the red and hurting the system overall. Given the current management of the system, there is no way to realistically trace detailed patterns of where routes are getting fed from.Health care and public education (excluding post-secondary) are not pay-to-use. The TTC is pay-to-use, so don't compare apples to oranges.

This is so central to your argument because, why?

You're posting opinions because you want others to hear your opinions and see if other people agree with your opinions. However, you, on several occasions in other threads, are very prone to spreading bad information - you run around talking like you're in the know but the majority of your so-called facts are actually outright false. I will speak up if I see a false statement try to be passed off as a fact. Mel Lastman being a total retard may be an opinion, but the Sheppard Subway being a bad idea is not an opinion, it is now an established fact as the TTC is clearly trying to abandon the line's future prospects.
Eglinton was abandoned because it was unfeasiable to build a line there. I have already provided some of the reasons, and there are many many more. Let's get over this fact, if you don't like it, file a negligent lawsuit against the pervious government.

You repeatedly insult a mayor who has done great things for a city, and who is responsible for the entire transformation of NYCC. If you don't like him, fine, don't spread false claims about him either. BTW, he can pretty much sue you for defamation at this point (if he sees your posts) and he will have a very good chance of winning. But I hope he won't. So please watch what you say over public forums.

Not gonna respond to the majority of your pots because they too are opinions.

But prove to me how the TTC is clearly trying to abandon the line's future prospects. Seeking alternative due to lack of funding is not the same as abadoning future prospects.
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Old December 6th, 2007, 02:33 PM   #548
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Eglinton was abandoned because it was unfeasiable to build a line there. I have already provided some of the reasons, and there are many many more. Let's get over this fact, if you don't like it, file a negligent lawsuit against the pervious government.
This is what I was talking about with your statements being false when you claim they are facts. The Eglinton subway was not abandoned because it was unfeasable. That's got to be one of the biggest pieces of BS you've posted. If it was unfeasable, it would never have gotten to the point where construction had started. It was already under construction when it was cancelled, so obviously it had been studied and argued feasable, although the methods of these studies are questionable since they gave Sheppard a green light as well. The only reason Eglinton was abandoned was because its provincial support was withdrawn. What happened to the Spadina Expressway happened to the Eglinton Subway in a sense, they were killed by the exact same political mechanics, although in different eras and under very different circumstances with completely opposite motives and results. You have not provided any actual reasons, either, since you failed to even focus on the proper portion of route. Eglinton has long been a priority corridor across its entire length on the TTC's map of expansion priorities - there are multiple such maps among report documents on its website. The TTC has studied numberous corridors and is in the process of other studies - always is. Sheppard is not as important as Eglinton, not even close.

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You repeatedly insult a mayor who has done great things for a city, and who is responsible for the entire transformation of NYCC. If you don't like him, fine, don't spread false claims about him either.
They're not false, these have already been through the news, if they were false, the news stories would have been retracted, which never happened, nor were any libel suits filed. NYCC is not that significant anyway - if it were, the Sheppard Line would have been more successful, but it isn't. Things may still change over the next 5 years, but that was also said 5 years ago. The Sheppard Line has yet to meet its ridership projection for its first year - that's sad.
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BTW, he can pretty much sue you for defamation at this point (if he sees your posts) and he will have a very good chance of winning. But I hope he won't. So please watch what you say over public forums.
No, he wouldn't, because I'm backing it up with actual facts, things that he actually did. Yeah, he would have preferred them to be kept secret since they surely are of no benefit to his reputation, but that's too bad for him. Don't act like he has some moral superiority over anybody, he's a very corrupt politician.

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Not gonna respond to the majority of your pots because they too are opinions.
You totally do not know the difference between fact and opinion. To you, facts are what you agree with and anything you disagree with is an opinion. You just don't want to take part in a debate you can't win.

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But prove to me how the TTC is clearly trying to abandon the line's future prospects. Seeking alternative due to lack of funding is not the same as abadoning future prospects.
If the TTC was serious about extending the line, they would have pushed for an extension of that subway line in Transit City's proposal - and they would have gotten it too with the provincial spending spree in effect. Also, the transfer in the middle of the corridor is a big deal, that's not conductive to ridership at all. I suspect that this has some relationship to the Don Mills line and Finch line should the Finch line get extended east of the York Region Terminal. The people at the TTC are clearly not impressed with the performance of the Sheppard Subway Line so much that they are prepared to cut their losses and improve suburban access to the system by other, lower-risk methods. Not continuing the subway is a big deal, that is a decision that would have been carefully weighed, especially given the priority they had been placing on it in earlier years. They would have at least tried to pull a partially underground LRT at its connection point at Don Mills, but that is not something I would expect to happen at this point - the fact that they want to do the Sheppard Line first in Transit City, another mystery since that is not in sync with the reports published for the evaluations of each line (the report strongly points to Jane before Sheppard, but Jane is not getting first dibs), is further evidence that they want to put a cork in the subway extension's public pressure. They are going to tunnel Eglinton in the same manner as a subway would be tunneled for that LRT though, which shows that the TTC is indeed very serious about the Eglinton subway coming, probably sooner rather than later, as that is unquestionably the next Bloor-Subway-in-waiting (...except for the Etobicoke portion).
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Old December 7th, 2007, 09:01 AM   #549
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They are going to tunnel Eglinton in the same manner as a subway would be tunneled for that LRT though, which shows that the TTC is indeed very serious about the Eglinton subway coming, probably sooner rather than later, as that is unquestionably the next Bloor-Subway-in-waiting (...except for the Etobicoke portion).
Therein lies an interesting point...why did network 2011 include an Eglinton "West" and a Sheppard "east" line? Was TTC looking at a trying to build a subway in a different way from Bloor Danforth (which was built across the city then extended at both ends)?

One wonders why the planners didnt want to build the Eglinton and Sheppard lines the same way as Bloor Danforth, extending east and west from Yonge, and reducing pressure on Yonge and Spadina as well?

Perhaps they were keen on Eglinton West and Sheppard East for other reasons? The first phase of the Eglinton West line would have ended at Black Creek Drive, and would have lots of space for parking or a future yard. The Sheppard East line would end at Don Mills road, again, with space for future yards and lots of parking....or development as needed...

I expect that the initial costs of tunneling east and west from Yonge....would have been alot higher, but the result would be very effective at completing a network...and reducing pressure on Yonge.

I believe that the TTC would be in a better network position today if they had built Eglinton and Sheppard extending east and west of Yonge.

Even if they stopped subway construction and moved to LRT, it would not be so bad...this would be following the tried-and-true success of bloor-danforth, which still ran streetcars at the ends of the lines for some years before extensions happened.

Any thoughts?

Cheers, m
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Old December 7th, 2007, 01:13 PM   #550
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Therein lies an interesting point...why did network 2011 include an Eglinton "West" and a Sheppard "east" line? Was TTC looking at a trying to build a subway in a different way from Bloor Danforth (which was built across the city then extended at both ends)?
My understanding is that this was partially to do with politics (serving both east and west ends equally), and partly to do with the plans for sub-downtowns - of which Sheppard-Yonge is supposed to be one of them. Eglinton would have seen additional use go into the Spadina subway, underused at the time, arguably still is today although it is showing stronger signs lately these days. Eglinton I believe was also supposed to be a boom for Mount Dennis area - back then, a GO Station at that location had already been proposed, and the environmental assessment for that station is already complete, GO just has to make a RFP (or do it in-house at their engineering dept.).

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Originally Posted by allurban View Post
One wonders why the planners didnt want to build the Eglinton and Sheppard lines the same way as Bloor Danforth, extending east and west from Yonge, and reducing pressure on Yonge and Spadina as well?
There's a good argument that if both Sheppard and Eglinton both went in both directions from Yonge, Yonge would not be able to handle it. Too much demand, not enough capacity. There isn't enough capacity already today - capacity south of Bloor has been maxed out for years. The ridership on that portion has been steady, but would have actually gone up if there was capacity to absorb the demand, but there isn't, so ridership is flat at its max-out point. I have raised serious concerns about Transit City causing this problem before as well.

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Perhaps they were keen on Eglinton West and Sheppard East for other reasons? The first phase of the Eglinton West line would have ended at Black Creek Drive, and would have lots of space for parking or a future yard. The Sheppard East line would end at Don Mills road, again, with space for future yards and lots of parking....or development as needed...
Sheppard East was supposed to end at Victoria Park, not Don Mills. If Sheppard did need its own yard, it probably would have gone just south-east of Leslie, across the East Don. But you are absolutely correct about Eglinton West, a yard could easily be worked into either the rail corridor or the Flats.

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I expect that the initial costs of tunneling east and west from Yonge....would have been alot higher, but the result would be very effective at completing a network...and reducing pressure on Yonge.
I beg to differ. How do you figure they would not add pressure on Yonge? I totally do not see the logic in that statement.

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Originally Posted by allurban View Post
I believe that the TTC would be in a better network position today if they had built Eglinton and Sheppard extending east and west of Yonge.
There's a good argument that skipping Sheppard and doing just Eglinton in both directions would have had the most network "oomph". The projections in the Transit City reports certainly seem to strongly support this, Eglinton is a ridership cow waiting to be milked. The thing with Sheppard though, as others have pointed out before either in this thread or others, is that Finch would have been better than Sheppard for a subway north of Eglinton. Indeed, Transit City's reports show the Finch West line performing stronger than Sheppard East's corridor by a confortable margin.

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Originally Posted by allurban View Post
Even if they stopped subway construction and moved to LRT, it would not be so bad...this would be following the tried-and-true success of bloor-danforth, which still ran streetcars at the ends of the lines for some years before extensions happened.

Any thoughts?
Sorry, this is not the same as Bloor-Danforth at all. The biggest difference is one that you already have mentioned: Bloor-Danforth went in both directions from Yonge. Also, Bloor-Danforth also had a strong streetcar presense comparable to Yonge's before it became a subway and had to turn itself into a subway too in order to meet demand. The demand in Sheppard did not warrant a subway. Eglinton is such a rich corridor though that even though its not got the streetcar presense already, the high demand and high-development pockets along it, make it a very safe bet that Eglinton would be far stronger than Sheppard and would likely see high use in a much sooner timeframe than Sheppard will take to build up.
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Old December 7th, 2007, 04:35 PM   #551
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I was reading up on Transit City on Wikipedia, and it appears that other lines are going to be tunneled in high density areas as well. So from what I can gather, the TTC hopes for their LRT to be very fast and rapid throughout the city.
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You are genius too Electrify, never would have thought of this if not for your thread.
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Old December 8th, 2007, 06:47 AM   #552
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I was reading up on Transit City on Wikipedia, and it appears that other lines are going to be tunneled in high density areas as well. So from what I can gather, the TTC hopes for their LRT to be very fast and rapid throughout the city.
It's not confirmed. Some corridors have pockets that are challenging. Jane for example is encountering concerns from residents along sections where the road is narrower. Only Eglinton has been confirmed to have a significant amount of tunnels. Others are currently being studied, but it is true that some other parts have problems. That said, Sheppard I doubt will be one of them, it has been encountering some of the least amount of opposition surprisingly enough.
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Old December 8th, 2007, 01:54 PM   #553
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It's not confirmed. Some corridors have pockets that are challenging. Jane for example is encountering concerns from residents along sections where the road is narrower. Only Eglinton has been confirmed to have a significant amount of tunnels. Others are currently being studied, but it is true that some other parts have problems. That said, Sheppard I doubt will be one of them, it has been encountering some of the least amount of opposition surprisingly enough.
Why would that be surprising? It was fielded as an alternative to the subway, which is holds very high in opinion to the people who lives in North York, Scarb and even Markham. Only it costs 10 times less, so it could actually happen.

The TTC wants to push it through because it also saves them some embracement from the ATM useless Sheppard line.

And the province have little problem with it because they have to fund something anyways.

The only people who would not like the Sheppard LRT are the ones who don’t get their lines built as early. But that's how the system works, you can't make everyone happy. Everyone is going to think that they're more important than the other guy, so what determines priority comes down to politics.

The Eglinton line will never be prioritised just because of the cost of its underground section. The TTC would rather build twice the distance at grade at other locations, than build the Eglinton line at a near subway cost. It really doesn't matter how important the Eglinton line is or becomes, its cost pretty much dooms it to the end of the line.

First 3 should be Sheppard, Jane and Finch.
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Old December 8th, 2007, 09:48 PM   #554
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I STILL hold firmlyabout transferring Sheppard subway over to LRT and then ext it to Spadina or prefferable to Jane.
Yes, transferring Sheppard to LRT wouldn't be easy but a hell of a lot cheaper than ext Sheppard to STC or west Spadina/ Jane.
It could be started in the east first closing Don Mills and when that is transferred the LRT could run that far and so on. It wouldn't have to be done all at once.
Also if kept to its current configuration I think Sheppard will DECREASE in riidership due to being an ineffective crosstown as people start to realise that getting from STC to York is acttually longer than it will be now. This is because right now due to Sheppard you take the line to DonMills and then transfer ONCE to get on the bus to STC but when the LRT comes on stream you will transfer TWICE because you will get on the LRT but then have to take a bus from the Sheppard LRT down to near STC but have to TRANSFER on to a bus south over the 401 to get STC.
If the line was just LRT was a complete LRT to Spadin one would only take the bus north to LRT and then enjoy a comfortable NON-TRANFERABLE trip to Spadina.

Remember transferring Sheppard to LRT will be an added cost but extending to Spadina/Jane will be hundreds of millions cheaper than ext Sheppard subway all the way over to Jane.

Why do people hate the ScarRT? Thats becuase it is too busy and requires than long walk transfer. Note the word TRANSFER. People hate to do it. If they keep the current configuration Sheppard is niothing but a group of transfers.

Also as said Sheppard subway will decrease in ridership as not only will be a bigger pain in the ass than it already is but also much of the traffic takes the line to get to the Yong line but that traaffic will be as heavy when they will be able to take the coming DonMills LRT to the Bloor line.

Transferring the whole line from on end to Malvern to Jane to complete LRT would save a small fortune than extending the Sheppard line to Spadina little alone than Jane.

It would non of the ****** transfers that people hate..................faster, more comfortable seemless ride, cheaper, and be an effective RT line from one end of the city to the other.
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Old December 9th, 2007, 12:38 AM   #555
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Sheppard LRT

I have heard that conversion of the Sheppard subway into an lrt would not be possible since the tunnel is too low for pantograph operation. Perhaps a retracting pantograph could be devised so that the system could be similar to the Boston subway Blue Line. The Blue Line has pantographs and third rail. The pantographs are used on the outskirts of the city centre.

I doubt this would be practical. The Spadina Line should be extended to Yonge along Sheppard, costing $1 B, so that Sheppard is a spur of Sheppard. Eglinton subway should revert to a Eglington West line. The savings of the Eglinton line (subway) east of the Allen Rd would pay for the Sheppard West extension. An lrt tunnel would be even more costly than a third rail subway tunnel to account for pantograph; however the stations could be smaller, but would need to be enlarged later at great expense.

I think that Transit City purposely left Sheppard as a stubway to prove their point politically, that the subway would never work. Also, lrt is not 10x cheaper than subways. The lrts are about $40 M / km and the subways about $150 / km, and at most $200 M / km. That is a fifth. LRT poponents such as Giambrone are out by a factor of two. If they were looking at busways versus subway, they would be correct.
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Old December 9th, 2007, 12:49 AM   #556
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Originally Posted by splashflash View Post

Also, lrt is not 10x cheaper than subways. The lrts are about $40 M / km and the subways about $150 / km, and at most $200 M / km. That is a fifth. LRT poponents such as Giambrone are out by a factor of two. If they were looking at busways versus subway, they would be correct.
dispatching, signalling, stations, transfers, stock, maintenance and the extra electricity cost all cost money (when compared to overhangs, the third rail is a very inefficient way of transferring energy). When you add those up, it comes to 8 or 9 times the cost. I may have played it up a bit, but that’s exactly how the people who make the decisions are gonna tried to spin it. And they're not exactly wrong about it either.

When you build LRT, you do the road work, put the wires in and you're pretty much done with it other than the scheduled maintenance. A subway would require alot more extra background operations.
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Old December 9th, 2007, 02:26 AM   #557
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dispatching, signalling,
If an lrt is worth anything it will have dispatching and signalling; otherwise it will be like the streetcars, little better than buses. LRTs have both, just as subways do, and those systems are expensive

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stations, transfers
,
I agree, if the stations are simply made. The Calgary LRT stations on the north lines are no cheaper to build than SRT stations, as they travel in the middle of fast paced arterials. If Toronto avoids this, and builds a glorified bus stop similar to the stations on St. Clair, costs will stay down.

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stock,
If the stock is similar to the new streetcars, not at all. $5 M each, the price being heard in advance of final tendering, is very costly. The replacement subway cars from Bombardier, of which I was critical since there was no competitive bidding, look like a good deal, considering the number of people the carry compared to the proposed streetcars.


Quote:
maintenance
If you want cheap maintenance, stick with buses, especially hybrids.

Station maintenance is costly for subway, but so is it for space lost (ie taxes not paid because of lost paid parking spaces or building space). Unfortunately, land taxes are lost to road space and rail space kept in the public domain; whereas, if buildings were there, taxes would be collected.


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and the extra electricity cost all cost money (when compared to overhangs, the third rail is a very inefficient way of transferring energy).
Peanuts really. Electrical squirrel cage motors are similar, and the conductive path is not that different.

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When you add those up, it comes to 8 or 9 times the cost.
You have to do better than that, and so should politicians who are managing a lot of taxpayer money.

It was rather ironic to see all the talk about having to shut down the Sheppard subway to save money. When it came down to the studies, not much at all would be saved. It was interesting that Sheppard was chosen in the first place, and I think that shows how much politics has been played.



Quote:
When you build LRT, you do the road work, put the wires in and you're pretty much done with it other than the scheduled maintenance. A subway would require alot more extra background operations.
Again, this is all spin. With this logic, buses are what should be run since they are the cheapest to maintain and don't need any rails, wires or signalling systems. I am not at all against lrt, and I especially agree with you that Eglinton should be at the end of the queue, not the front, because it is essentially a subway. I am strongly against people, especially people who are highly paid, the chair of the TTC and should know better, making specious arguments with regard to public money.
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Old December 9th, 2007, 11:59 AM   #558
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I beg to differ. How do you figure they would not add pressure on Yonge? I totally do not see the logic in that statement.
The point is that by going east and west from Yonge, the Eglinton and Sheppard subways would link both Yonge and Spadina.

Essentially, this would mean reduced pressure on Yonge and greater use of the Spadina line...

Sheppard perhaps could have run from Bayview to York University, (or as you suggested, a Finch line instead of Sheppard). Eglinton would have been very successful running from Bayview to Dufferin or Caledonia.

With these lines in place there would probably been more demand for GO Train connections, and a push for improved, higher frequency GO services...so that would also reduce some of the pressure on the Yonge line...by encouraging commuters to opt for GO Transit when traveling longer distances.

Had this been done, there would be 3 east-west subway lines, 2 north-south subway lines, and two north south GO lines offering frequent service...a complete network with lots of potential for expansion

Cheers, m
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Old December 9th, 2007, 01:50 PM   #559
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The point is that by going east and west from Yonge, the Eglinton and Sheppard subways would link both Yonge and Spadina.

Essentially, this would mean reduced pressure on Yonge and greater use of the Spadina line...
This depends on their final destination. I don't think it would actually work that way given what current travel patterns look like. It becomes an argument of 2 transfers versus no transfers, which are riders going to opt for?
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Old December 9th, 2007, 02:04 PM   #560
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Why would that be surprising? It was fielded as an alternative to the subway, which is holds very high in opinion to the people who lives in North York, Scarb and even Markham. Only it costs 10 times less, so it could actually happen.
That's the logic behind all of TC's lines, but some do run into opposition, like Jane, and I think Don Mills might fight against some parts of it (based on the opposition of its busway to Castle Frank that got defeated by community opposition). The thing with Sheppard is that it has more space than other corridors along most of the route, since development is so low along that line east of Vic Park, with the exception of the Agincourt GO Station perhaps.

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The TTC wants to push it through because it also saves them some embracement from the ATM useless Sheppard line.
It's not going to help it become useful since the transfer remains. The TTC is trying to send a different message, I think, mainly that there should be no subway along this corridor.

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And the province have little problem with it because they have to fund something anyways.
There's an ignorant comment. They don't have to fund anything they don't feel like funding. The current provincial government has offered to fund all of Transit City as a package deal. The TTC could have put whatever plan they wanted and the province would have funded it in its MoveOntario2020 announcement. This was done as a vote-buying scheme, and it seems to be working. The TTC was actually expecting it to take a lot longer to get the province on board, they were totally caught off-guard. The province actually hasn't looked at the proposal in that much detail, I'd wager. They just looked at the price tag and then assumed the city that did the planning behind the proposal had looked after the rest of the issues surrounding it, since McGuinty's job here is just to shovel the cash - the real work happens at the municipal and commission level. The province doesn't really care as long as they get elected thanks to the transit funding - and can cut the ribbon with photo ops. MoveOntario2020 basically said "money is no issue".

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The only people who would not like the Sheppard LRT are the ones who don’t get their lines built as early. But that's how the system works, you can't make everyone happy. Everyone is going to think that they're more important than the other guy, so what determines priority comes down to politics.
Not in TC's case. The queue has been decided on strongest projections of ridership to the system, and what kinds of locations each corridor services, including connections to other operators. The relationship to the Official Plan is also weighed in, such as, for example, servicing "priority neighborhoods". Sheppard is the only anamoly, as its queue number doesn't match these qualifiers. I will agree that in Sheppard's case, politics is playing into it, but for the others, its projections and other qualifiers deciding it, not politics. The funding has already been promised, so politics is not as important now.

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The Eglinton line will never be prioritised just because of the cost of its underground section. The TTC would rather build twice the distance at grade at other locations, than build the Eglinton line at a near subway cost. It really doesn't matter how important the Eglinton line is or becomes, its cost pretty much dooms it to the end of the line.
Thank you for proving you know absolutely nothing about the TTC. Eglinton is already the number one priority. Eglinton is by far the line of choice for pretty much everyone on TTC staff, and probably a majority of the commission from city council (since it cuts through a very large number of wards) and the reports prove that it is a ridership-cow waiting to be milked. The Eglinton Line has the strongest projections almost across the board. Its biggest failing is its cost, yes, but its projections are strong enough that its worth the investment. The TTC has been after a solution to Eglinton for a long time, as it has long been a priority across its entire length as needing higher order transit in previous (and current) studies of corridors.

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Originally Posted by UD2 View Post
First 3 should be Sheppard, Jane and Finch.
Eglinton, Jane, and Finch. Sheppard should be sent to at least 4th place, I'd say 5th since the West Waterfront Line should also go ahead of Sheppard, but the TTC is eager to end the subway issue once and for all.
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