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Old February 7th, 2008, 07:10 AM   #581
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It's a shame that such a critical station would be shut down for two days in a row. Buses simply cannot makeup for a missing subway train. In effect the whole system was slowed because of this incident due to buses being rerouted to ferry passengers traveling past the derailment.

I'm disappointed that maintenance crews couldn't catch this... but then again, I'm not surprised at all. "Maintenance" is obviously kept at a bare minimum on the TTC. There's garbage floating around the tracks like strewn newspaper, water bottles and rodents running around the tracks all of the time. Broken escalators are routinely left for "repair" for 3 months in already antiquated stations which were not designed for the passenger flows that exist today.

All in all, the city has become all too reliant on an antiquated system with too few subway lines.
If Toronto had longer buses, then I'm sure they could have handled this much better. It would have been also good if they ran extra GO trains from Kennedy GO, or at least allowed passengers to ride from Kennedy to Main St or Union for a TTC fare. On the plus side, I'm sure waiting for a bus at Kennedy station was not very long, to say the least

As for your comments on maintenance of the TTC, it isn't perfect, but it is MUCH better than many major subway systems. Mice are gonna run along the tracks of any system that runs through an underground tunnel, and would it make you feel better if they shut down the tracks several times a day to clean garbage on them? Escalators though, there is no excuse and their policies on their upkeep need to be revised. Same with the installation of elevators (unless the TTC is trying to break a record for the slowest installation of an elevator).

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Originally Posted by ale26
Bottom line...Toronto subways are crap.
Yeah, cause derailments on the TTC are a regular occurrence
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Old February 7th, 2008, 11:14 AM   #582
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If Toronto had longer buses, then I'm sure they could have handled this much better. It would have been also good if they ran extra GO trains from Kennedy GO, or at least allowed passengers to ride from Kennedy to Main St or Union for a TTC fare. On the plus side, I'm sure waiting for a bus at Kennedy station was not very long, to say the least
The wait would be long, actually, because you'll have to wait a few buses to pass before you can get on. The SRT lets passengers build up faster than buses can haul them away. Bigger buses would not solve the problem either, btw. Having Stouffville trains stop at Danforth (usually they don't) would have helped a lot, IMO, even if they didn't let them ride for a TTC fare. However, GO might not be able to handle the loads either due to their lower frequencies and the fact that the trains are full at Kennedy already since it is the last stop before Union on that line. The platform for the GO train would be too small to accomodate the piling up of SRT users.
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Old February 8th, 2008, 03:19 AM   #583
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As for your comments on maintenance of the TTC, it isn't perfect, but it is MUCH better than many major subway systems.
There are many major subway systems that are better than the TTC. For a city of this size, the TTC has a small system with many things that need to be fixed. Ridership will increase as more immigrants move into the GTA. Coupled with the prohibitive costs of gasoline and car ownership, transit will be only viable option for many people. The problems with the TTC will only continue become compounded unless some funding is provided with a change of management.

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would it make you feel better if they shut down the tracks several times a day to clean garbage on them?
How about preventing people from throwing foreign objects onto the track all together? There`s obviously no funding for it, but platform screen doors are in common use with many other major subway systems. I realize the TTC is strapped for cash since the province and feds are not willing to pay but with increasing ridership and fares I don`t see why we are still having these problems with routine maintenance.
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Old February 8th, 2008, 04:23 AM   #584
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There are many major subway systems that are better than the TTC. For a city of this size, the TTC has a small system with many things that need to be fixed.

that is true are subway lines are rather small, however it appears they are made up by bus routes that are practically running as BRT'S now...
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Old February 8th, 2008, 05:39 AM   #585
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that is true are subway lines are rather small, however it appears they are made up by bus routes that are practically running as BRT'S now...
Buses are only a band-aid solution. They're slow and move very small volumes of passengers compared to rail, and subject to traffic delays with other vehicles on the road. If there's no money, then people will have to put up with bus rides, but the long-term focus should be more trunk heavy rail routes to minimize bus travel times.
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Old February 8th, 2008, 06:12 AM   #586
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They're slow and move very small volumes of passengers compared to rail,

that is true but they still pull huge volumes, as they are a huge volume of buses...
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Old February 8th, 2008, 06:13 AM   #587
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that is true but they still pull huge volumes, as they are a huge volume of buses...
Then the bus fleet is aging, and needs to be overhauled. The average age of a bus is over 15 years. There's not enough money to replace them.

A bus strategy is only a short-term solution, and even BRT is another band-aid as the city waits for more subways.
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Old February 8th, 2008, 03:43 PM   #588
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however we will always need some sort of bus service.


Like we need feeder lines to feed people into more suburban subway stations???

no??

Its not like you can built a lrt from every station....


Also mostly the new Lrts will now put a huge burden on the Yonge line. It will now lead to traffic all day on Yonge and Bloor lines now. Thats is good, but I wonder what would then happen at rush hour.
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Old February 8th, 2008, 04:07 PM   #589
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Buses are only a band-aid solution. They're slow and move very small volumes of passengers compared to rail, and subject to traffic delays with other vehicles on the road. If there's no money, then people will have to put up with bus rides, but the long-term focus should be more trunk heavy rail routes to minimize bus travel times.
Unfortunately, building a massive network of subways seems to be a pipe dream today, if simply due to the costs involved. Buses are not THAT bad though. Most TTC bus routes have more than significant enough frequency and speed to be a realistic alternative to driving. If they would implement more limited stop/express service, dedicated bus lanes, traffic light priority, and larger and nicer buses, then more people would want to ride the bus and not simply "put up" with it.
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Old February 9th, 2008, 12:27 AM   #590
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true like those rocket buses that run on big high speed streets and highways really are very convenient.
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Old February 9th, 2008, 01:30 AM   #591
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Also mostly the new Lrts will now put a huge burden on the Yonge line. It will now lead to traffic all day on Yonge and Bloor lines now. Thats is good, but I wonder what would then happen at rush hour.
Yonge south of Bloor, possibly even south of Eglinton, the system is in danger of failing under too much pressure without a DRL running from Keele to Greenwood via downtown. If southern Yonge fails, it will reverberate throughout the entire system and cause enormous problems.
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Old February 9th, 2008, 01:34 AM   #592
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first of all BD is just a massive feeder line. Only like 20-25% use it as a crosstown.

Sheppard is a feeder line as well and so would Eglinton...

Meaning its great and all but really Yonge is crowded now, I can't fathom what would happen if you start getting like 20-25% more traffic from more traffic on the BD line that feeds into Yonge (don mills, Jane would feed on to BD) and the added traffic from the Eglinton, Sheppard, Finch LRT's onto Yonge.
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Old February 9th, 2008, 05:16 AM   #593
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first of all BD is just a massive feeder line. Only like 20-25% use it as a crosstown.

Sheppard is a feeder line as well and so would Eglinton...

Meaning its great and all but really Yonge is crowded now, I can't fathom what would happen if you start getting like 20-25% more traffic from more traffic on the BD line that feeds into Yonge (don mills, Jane would feed on to BD) and the added traffic from the Eglinton, Sheppard, Finch LRT's onto Yonge.
That's why we need a phase 2 for TC almost immediately after phase 1 is complete:

Jane should be redirected towards the Weston Sub and designed to be upgraded to subway if necessary. Initially it stops at Dundas West but later should extend to Exhibition.

Goes without saying that Don Mills should be extended south to meet the the Lakeshore LRT (which should be upgraded to real LRT), and also be designed to convert to subway if necessary.

Massive expansion of Union Loop.

Sheppard should be converted to subway. Just go for it, and stop this nonsense about transfering again.

Redirect more suburbanites to the Spadina Line (and Spadina should only be extended to a future bus terminal at Steeles W)

GO Rail MUST be upgraded to S-Bahn service, so that someone in Etobicoke can go to Kipling, wait a maximum of 15 minutes (10 minutes peak hours), and get downtown in 15 minutes. Someone in Richmond Hill can get to Langstaff and get downtown easily, and this should alleviate the overcrowding at Finch. Same thing with Scarborough and the Markham line.

Once those are taken, congestion on the Yonge should decrease dramatically.
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Old February 10th, 2008, 04:46 PM   #594
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first of all BD is just a massive feeder line. Only like 20-25% use it as a crosstown.

Sheppard is a feeder line as well and so would Eglinton...

Meaning its great and all but really Yonge is crowded now, I can't fathom what would happen if you start getting like 20-25% more traffic from more traffic on the BD line that feeds into Yonge (don mills, Jane would feed on to BD) and the added traffic from the Eglinton, Sheppard, Finch LRT's onto Yonge.
I agree, that's why the DRL would be excellent at taking the existing load from Kennedy to Greenwood and Kipling to HighPark off of the Donlands-DundasWest portion of the B-D and take them straight downtown (I'm talking about a one-seat, no transfer, using the existing Wye at Greenwood yard and a new Wye between Keele and Dundas West, using space from the old Vincent Yard). If the same DRL is extended as a branch service north of B-D, then it can also take Eglinton's loads, even Sheppard if one uses it to create a loop line.

Sheppard Subway should not be extended to STC, it will only make the feeder problem into Yonge worse.
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Old February 13th, 2008, 12:23 PM   #595
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Subway derailment sparks parts redesign
February 13, 2008
Toronto Star

The TTC is replacing two of the parts on its entire fleet of 126 H6 subway cars following last week's train derailment near Kennedy station.

A safety pin has been redesigned and a heavy metal link – both of which failed on the derailed car – will be replaced across the H6 fleet within the next four months. The H6 represents less than one-third of all subway cars in the TTC fleet.

The move follows an accident investigation that showed the failure of the link allowed the car's torque arm to push down on the safety pin, loosening it, so that the arm fell and dragged along the track bed, derailing the train.

The entire H6 fleet, which undergoes regular monthly inspections, was reinspected following the accident and no problems were found, said TTC chair Adam Giambrone.

The parts replacement is precautionary and doesn't indicate any systemic concern or any threat to public safety on the subway, he said.

But "clearly, two individual systems failed and this shouldn't have happened," he said. "We'll continue to try to figure out why they both occurred at exactly the same time."

None of the six people on the train, including two crew members, was injured when the last car lifted off the track west of Kennedy station. The derailment occurred Feb. 1 as the train was heading west on its last run, around 1 a.m.

"These aren't derailments where the whole train falls over. The speeds are lower because they're going through switches. And they don't fall off the track. One of the wheels comes off the track; that causes some damage to the tunnels, and people are not injured," Giambrone explained.

In 1995, an axle broke, derailing an almost new H6 subway car near Finch station. No one was hurt in that accident, either, Giambrone said. The broken axle was called a fluke at the time. The TTC would have been more concerned about last week's derailment had it been unable to find a cause.

"We found what it is and that allows us to deal with it," he said.

Had there been serious questions about the reason the car derailed, the TTC would have called on the American Public Transit Association to help it investigate, Giambrone said.

The H6 cars aren't made any more. Built in Thunder Bay, they are about halfway through their anticipated 30-year lifespan and have proved extremely reliable overall, say TTC officials.

There are fewer than 100 of the TTC's oldest H5 cars in service. Its newest, some 372 T1 cars, were purchased from Bombardier in 1991. Delivery of another new generation of subway cars will begin next year.
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Old February 14th, 2008, 08:23 PM   #596
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There are fewer than 100 of the TTC's oldest H5 cars in service. Its newest, some 372 T1 cars, were purchased from Bombardier in 1991. Delivery of another new generation of subway cars will begin next year.
Those new gen cars were in a quantity of 234 or something, IIRC. After the H5s are gone, the H6s are next to be replaced. Although not all H6s are going to get replaced since there are too many in the fleet to be replaced by the new order, this new safety pin is only going to see a year or two of service. At least its cheap. But you'd wonder why this never happened before if this fault exists across the fleet. Kinda weird, but whatever.
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Old February 15th, 2008, 03:12 AM   #597
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Those new gen cars were in a quantity of 234 or something, IIRC. After the H5s are gone, the H6s are next to be replaced. Although not all H6s are going to get replaced since there are too many in the fleet to be replaced by the new order, this new safety pin is only going to see a year or two of service. At least its cheap. But you'd wonder why this never happened before if this fault exists across the fleet. Kinda weird, but whatever.
because it probabley has a very low probability of occuring, and that probability becomes larger with age.

For all we know, this type of incident will probably never take place again for another 20 years. But because TTC is a bureaucracy, decisions arn't made on a scale of probability, rather deniability is the main drive behind the choices that are made.

afterall, nobody wants to take the responsibility if this does happen to occur again.
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Old February 18th, 2008, 08:01 AM   #598
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TTC uploading worth a long look
16 February 2008
The Toronto Star

Premier Dalton McGuinty's musings this week about having the province take over the TTC generated the usual backlash from Toronto City Hall. Despite that opposition, a takeover may be in the best interest of transit riders. It is worth finding out.

Critics have some valid concerns in resisting a transfer of the TTC to Metrolinx, formerly known as the Greater Toronto Transportation Authority. Its job is to co-ordinate commuter services across the GTA and Hamilton. The critics worry about losing local autonomy and fear the TTC could be starved of funds in favour of promoting transit in the 905 area. Without a proper and detailed study, however, there is no way of knowing if those fears are valid.

And the advantages of putting Metrolinx in charge of the TTC might well outweigh all the drawbacks.

While uploading the TTC to this regional transit authority remains in the realm of speculation, it has obviously gained some attention at Queen's Park. To prepare a cost-benefit analysis of the idea, the provincial government should put together a task force made up of Metrolinx officials, provincial transportation experts, and municipal staff from Toronto and other GTA cities.

McGuinty is correct in noting that transit in many other large urban centres is run on a region-wide basis rather than through a patchwork of local fiefdoms. Vancouver's successful TransLink authority, for example, steers policy and direction for transportation development in 22 communities. It even has power to charge tolls and set parking fees.

Strict transit boundaries are becoming a thing of the past. The TTC is already working on pushing a subway route outside Toronto by extending its Spadina line into Vaughan. The province is proposing to extend the Yonge line to Markham.

An overview is needed. With Ontario's Golden Horseshoe facing deepening gridlock, and as more commuters make a daily trek between cities, a case could be made that it would be best to run all GTA transit through Metrolinx rather than nine separate and narrowly focused systems. Or it may make better sense to pass only the control of subway lines to Metrolinx, and leaving buses and streetcars with the TTC. These options warrant serious study.

Toronto's bottom line would benefit from having the province lift the burden of the TTC from the municipal budget. Local taxpayers can expect to spend more than $200 million in subsidies for the TTC this year. Eliminating that annual cost would go a long way to putting this city on a secure financial footing.

More important than any budget benefit, however, is finding ways to improve the delivery of public transit to riders in Toronto and across the GTA. With that in mind, we need a serious study of the uploading of the TTC and other GTA public transit systems under the umbrella of Metrolinx. That might ultimately prove the better way.
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Old February 18th, 2008, 12:27 PM   #599
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Ontario's unwise reach
18 February 2008
The Globe and Mail

Torontonians are fond of bemoaning their city's public transit system, with some justification. For a system that serves the fifth-largest city in North America, the Toronto Transit Commission is badly underdeveloped. But a trial balloon floated by Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty would do little to solve this problem. If anything, it would give Torontonians more reason to complain.

Last week, Mr. McGuinty suggested that the TTC, currently controlled by the city, might eventually be taken over by the province. The aim would be an integrated regional system across the Greater Toronto Area, presumably under the watch of Metrolinx, a nascent provincial agency currently charged with mapping out a transportation plan for the area. “If you look around at most large urban centres there tends to be a larger regional body that takes responsibility for these kinds of things, so that from the perspective of a user it is perfectly seamless,” Mr. McGuinty said.

That his musings would meet with an outcry from municipal councillors, including TTC chair Adam Giambrone, was predictable, but they have good reason for being territorial. Seamlessness could be achieved simply by making provincial funding contingent upon the TTC's co-operating with the agency (or agencies) running public transit in surrounding cities. Mr. McGuinty's more drastic approach would instead take Toronto transit decisions out of the hands of those closest to the ground – councillors familiar with the system and answerable to its riders – and place them instead with a less accountable agency under the watch of a provincial government that already neglects Toronto's needs. That's hardly a recipe for success.

For all of the criticism directed at the TTC, its failings are less attributable to municipal mismanagement than to a lack of funding. The cash-strapped city, still feeling the effects of municipal downloading under the previous provincial government and unable to raise enough revenues itself, does what it can by investing in relatively minor upgrades, such as the service expansion on bus and streetcar routes announced last week. But it depends on the province to fund more ambitious endeavours, such as a much-needed expansion of the city's skeletal subway system, and until recently there has been little provincial will to do so.

It seems almost cruel that, having finally awoken to public transit needs with his MoveOntario 2020 plan – which will direct $11.5-billion toward Greater Toronto Area transit projects ($17.5-billion if the federal government comes on board) – Mr. McGuinty now seeks to deny the city its role in putting that money to good use. The Premier is only complicating matters by trying to reinvent the wheel.
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Old February 19th, 2008, 09:11 AM   #600
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Then the bus fleet is aging, and needs to be overhauled. The average age of a bus is over 15 years.
Perhaps you should look at current info....most of the TTC's bus fleet is less than 5 years old, and when the city takes delivery of its new buses this year, the fleet will be essentially all new.

And those "old" buses you were refering to, were actually completely rebuilt, so much different than if they had just been running since they were first built.




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