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Old April 22nd, 2008, 07:25 AM   #741
Electrify
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Originally Posted by Skybean View Post
Not every route is frequent. The route that I would use most comes every 30 minutes normally; 20 minutes rush hour.

Just today I had another TTC driver stop at a bus stop and leave as I was walking / jogging to the bus stop (literally 5 steps away). Over the years the quality of service has worsened. I'm not sure if it's because of the attitude of new hires and the loss of older ones who have left, but this is how I feel about the state of transit in this city. Kinnear agrees that service is "substandard"... so why should everyone be getting a raise at almost 2x inflation? Is there no accountability?

I really don't see how $29.00/hr salaries + unmatched benefits (100% injury topup, no paying Ontario Health Premium) + perks (new shoe allowance, unlimited transit pass...) can be sustained without significant fare increases and increases in property taxes. As salaries are sticky upwards, passengers continually get shafted. Also, due to this GTA clause, if Mississauga increases pay by some absurd amount, say -- 5%, the TTC will automatically follow suit! There's just no way out of this death trap.
What route do you take? That frequency sounds like what virtually all YRT routes run at, even through dense areas.

I think the only way out of this 'death trap' is to remove their right to strike, period. When most US cities were building highways through the inner city, Toronto was investing in transit. Because of this, transit really is an essential service, and the TTC's unions know that. Unless this right is removed, they will continue to demand above market wages (now the most paid transit workers in North America) regardless of how it will effect the TTC, economy, city, or passengers.

EDIT: Even Montreal, a city that has managed to have both transit and highways coexist in the inner city, requires some transit service during 'strikes.' So how can a city like Toronto, that only has two highways heading into downtown supporting a metro area population of 5 million, allow their transit workers to strike?
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You are genius too Electrify, never would have thought of this if not for your thread.

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Old April 22nd, 2008, 07:50 AM   #742
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It needs to be an essential service.
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Old April 22nd, 2008, 07:55 AM   #743
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I think the only way out of this 'death trap' is to remove their right to strike, period.
I agree with making it an essential service...this city can't afford to have transit shut down for the two days it would take to legislate them back to work.


Quote:
Unless this right is removed, they will continue to demand above market wages
Why do you keep spouting this "above market" nonsense...what are you...deaf (or worse). The TTC is paid less than Miss or Brampton transit workers, and they have a more difficult job, work harder and have better performance. It only makes sense that make at least the same (or even marginally more based on this latest contract). That's the "market" they are in.


Quote:
So how can a city like Toronto, that only has two highways heading into downtown supporting a metro area population of 5 million, allow their transit workers to strike?
Again...you're barking up the wrong tree...don't blame the city...blame the province (who's really responsible for most of the TTC's woes anyway)




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Old April 22nd, 2008, 07:11 PM   #744
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Originally Posted by KGB View Post
Why do you keep spouting this "above market" nonsense...what are you...deaf (or worse). The TTC is paid less than Miss or Brampton transit workers, and they have a more difficult job, work harder and have better performance. It only makes sense that make at least the same (or even marginally more based on this latest contract). That's the "market" they are in.
I heard from a comments blog on a news site that they were the highest paid transit workers in North America now. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find any official source confirming this, so I will retract this comment for the time time being. I, along with others, still feel that they generally overpaid and that this contract is much too generous.

Another way to take some steam out of the TTC would be to build more roadways into downtown. Right now many people take the TTC because it is the most convenient and fastest way into downtown, especially from the central corridor. If there was better access to downtown by vehicle, then there would be less need for the TTC.

Of course, this would create a social and economic nightmare. But it would be nice to see the TTC unions be put in their place.
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You are genius too Electrify, never would have thought of this if not for your thread.
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Old April 22nd, 2008, 09:07 PM   #745
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I, along with others, still feel that they generally overpaid and that this contract is much too generous.

Based on what...your expertise on labour issues, union contract negotiations and wage parody? I don't think so....you're just some average person who has uninformed, emotionally motivated opinions about high profile issues like this.

We have to deal with reality here...not your vision of how things should be. I think the price of bananas is too high, but what does that have to do with the reality of what the price of bananas are?


Quote:
Another way to take some steam out of the TTC would be to build more roadways into downtown.

Of course, this would create a social and economic nightmare. But it would be nice to see the TTC unions be put in their place.
See what I mean...cut our nose off to spite our face ideas is not useful in any way in a discussion about the topic.




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Old April 22nd, 2008, 09:36 PM   #746
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what's a station master...
It, being a profession that the likes of immature passengers like yerself there could never necessarily dream of, pegs onto what I commented earlier . . . better hold onta yer wits shouldja take to snarkiness, twit....



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those useless
The uselessness lies solely with your aimless whining . . . my neighbour's even lousy with her pointless, fake crying...



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you said they were playful?
Never imagined a robot being capable of second guessing . . . somebody balked at programming you just right.

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Old April 22nd, 2008, 09:52 PM   #747
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(wrong thread)
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Old April 23rd, 2008, 02:15 AM   #748
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TTC spending millions on consultants

System needs to resist new technologies, commission member says
BY DAVID NICKLE
April 22, 2008 04:48 PM


The Toronto Transit Commission needs to manage its information technology resources better, reign in its use of outside consultants and work more closely with the city, according to a report from Toronto's auditor general.

The report into the TTC's IT operations criticized the commission's use of outdated technology and its reliance on consultants and contractors to deal with its ongoing information technology needs.

Auditor General Jeff Griffiths found that the TTC had spent a total of $40 million on consultants over the past five years, and is currently over budget on 13 projects.

Griffiths urged that both the TTC and the Toronto Police Service work more closely with the city's own information technology division, and start using a city financial and information system known as SAP.

The report, which went before Toronto's Audit Committee Tuesday, April 22, was a source of frustration for politicians and TTC officials alike.

Toronto Transit Commission General Secretary Vince Rodo maintained the commission had looked at the cost of engaging in wholesale upgrades of information technology software and hardware - for managing everything from payroll to bus and train scheduling - but determined it to be actually more costly than hiring consultants to come in and refine existing equipment.

"From our perspective we haven't seen a remarkable business case on any SAP program, that if you spend $25 or $30 million that you get savings to justify the expenditure," he said. "And we think that implementing SAP is in the order of something like $35 million. It's big, it's not inexpensive and it's not easy."

Ward 2 (Etobicoke North) Councillor Rob Ford was less forgiving.

"If this was the private sector these people would be out of business," he said. "You can't go out and spend $40 million on consultants for five years and you can't be over budget on 13 projects by $120 million. You go out there and say we've got to have a fare increase because we need more money? I won't be very sympathetic."

Ward 8 (York West) Councillor Anthony Perruzza, who is also a TTC commissioner, took a more philosophical approach - arguing that the TTC and the city needed to be "resistant" to technological improvement.

"We need to resist as much as possible all of these new technologies and the people coming and trying to sell them to us," said Perruzza. "That is the reality - that we're going to pay hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars because of our addiction to technology."

source: http://network.nationalpost.com/np/b...22/166502.aspx
---------------------------------

TTC management is just a disaster.
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Old April 23rd, 2008, 02:39 AM   #749
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Originally Posted by KGB View Post
And then there's the fact that English is mostly just a bastardized derivative of French in the first place.
Incorrect While English has absorbed many words of French origin at certain points in history, it is not even in the same group of languages as French.
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Old April 23rd, 2008, 02:46 AM   #750
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BYS2 View Post
ttc is a piece of shit man... seriously, those collectors there should be making $8/hour max.. they're pretty much homeless people who dropped out of high school... seriously, and the it looks so cheap, why can't they make it nice like hk or japan subway system.. if they're gonna keep jacking up token prices every year, they should give us better facilities..

this is bs, if i ever get the chance, those collectors are all gonna get fired and thrown out on the streets.
oooooooooooh they are shakn' in their boots now, I'll bet.
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Old April 23rd, 2008, 04:10 AM   #751
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KGB View Post
Wage parody for TTC collectors isn't determined by looking at ....

KGB
Quote:
Originally Posted by KGB View Post
your expertise on labour issues, union contract negotiations and wage parody? I don't think so....

KGB
You mean wage parity, right?
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Old April 23rd, 2008, 11:14 AM   #752
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Quote:
You mean wage parity, right?

Yea...whatever. If you are going to waste a post every time I make a typo, this thread will be many pages long. As long as you know what I mean...why worry so much about it. Hmmm....thinking about it, perhaps I was actually making a Freudian slip?



Quote:
Incorrect While English has absorbed many words of French origin at certain points in history, it is not even in the same group of languages as French.
Yea...english is considered Germanic, and French a Romance language...big deal. The fact remains that half of the English vocabulary is derived from French, and until nearly the 15th century, the official language of law, government and the upper classes....was FRENCH.

But at any rate, the point behind what i was trying to get across, is that Toronto is a city of mostly immigrants of highly varied backgrounds, and therefore proper pronunciation of english words is just not high on the priority list.


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Old April 23rd, 2008, 11:47 AM   #753
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Originally Posted by KGB View Post
Yea...whatever. If you are going to waste a post every time I make a typo, this thread will be many pages long. As long as you know what I mean...why worry so much about it. Hmmm....thinking about it, perhaps I was actually making a Freudian slip?

KGB
I only brought this one up because you made the exact same typo twice in separate posts on different days (so it isn't exactly a typo at that point), but what I found particularly funny was the very concept of "wage parody", given the farce that Bob Kinnear is, that's actually not far from the truth.
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Old April 23rd, 2008, 03:46 PM   #754
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KGB View Post
Based on what...your expertise on labour issues, union contract negotiations and wage parody? I don't think so....you're just some average person who has uninformed, emotionally motivated opinions about high profile issues like this.
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/b...on-leader.aspx
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...ional/Ontario/
http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/416867

Yup, just average joes who dislike this contract.
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You are genius too Electrify, never would have thought of this if not for your thread.
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Old April 23rd, 2008, 06:30 PM   #755
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I only brought this one up because you made the exact same typo twice in separate posts on different days (so it isn't exactly a typo at that point)
I generally do...I type very fast, and because it's just a chat forum, don't care about it as long as the message is getting through (normally quite fastidious about details for more important things). A common one of mine is always typing it's, whether it's its or it's. Or perhaps I have some kind of dyslexia? At any rate, I know the correct spelling, and know how to use spell-check...just don't give a shit. Didn't figure anybody else did either.




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Yup, just average joes who dislike this contract

My point is, you don't know enough about the issue to really have an opinion one way or the other.
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Old April 24th, 2008, 04:50 AM   #756
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Don't worry about hurting my feelings bud, you're being schooled here by someone who's 1st language is English. Shows what you know.
I didn't bother reading past your first comment. It was obvious that the contents would continue with the predictable dribble and I've wasted enough time trying to convey very basic truisms to you.

I'm not your bud and I'm not worried one little iota about hurting the feelings of a troglodyte. You know what you know and to expect anything beyond that is foolhardy. The level of intellect of your peers is probably good validation for you. It's not my place to point out that they are cave people. You should continue to spend as much time as possible with them.

Refrain from making any contact of ANY kind with me. I have as much interest in that as talking to a blade of grass. Consider yourself BLOCKED. I'll make it easy for you to understand: you're on the IGNORE list.

You're really really smaRt. There. You're world has been restored.

Last edited by isaidso; April 24th, 2008 at 04:56 AM.
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Old April 26th, 2008, 06:52 AM   #757
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Surprise Toronto Transit Strike!

All subways, streetcars and buses will be out of service as of midnight, (10 minutes from now) and thousands of people will be stranded downtown as clubs begin to empty and people find themselves waiting for transit that wont be there.

Quote:
TTC workers reject contract; strike to begin at midnight

UNNATI GANDHI AND JEFF GRAY

Globe and Mail Update

April 25, 2008 at 11:22 PM EDT

TORONTO — The TTC's largest union has voted not to ratify a tentative agreement reached with management last weekend and the transit system will grind to a halt at midnight.

Sixty-five per cent of TTC union members voted to reject the tentative agreement, which required a 50-per-cent plus one vote to pass. Bob Kinnear, the union president, said he had no choice but to call an immediate strike for the safety of his members.

“We have assessed the situation and decided that we will not expose our members to the dangers of assaults from angry and irrational members of the public,” Mr. Kinnear said in a statement. “We have a legal responsibility to protect the safety of our members and so does the TTC.”

The union executive will meet on Saturday morning to determine its next step.
Related Articles

Andrew Specht, a TTC passenger who was waiting for a streetcar at the corner of Queen Street and Spadina Ave late last night, said he hopes the Ontario government will step in and order workers back to work.

“This is the perfect time for [Premier] Dalton McGuinty to step in and make it an essential service,” he said.

“More people have contact on a daily basis with the TTC than hospitals and police and they're an essential service. We were already waiting on tenterhooks ... right down to the 11th hour ... and now they say they're going to strike? At this point, I have no sympathy for them.”

Mr. McGuinty floated the idea of short-circuiting the union's right to strike by declaring transit an essential service last week.

Student Dave Rider from Barrie, Ont., wrote in to The Globe upon hearing news of the strike late Friday night. “Thank you TTC, for going on strike during my exams. You're going to make commuting to my final exams so much fun.”

Last week's eleventh-hour deal came just in time to avert a strike that would have paralyzed the city on Monday morning.

But after a meeting held for union members to discuss the deal Wednesday night, reports of discontent among union executive board members and the transit agency's maintenance workers began to circulate.

Last night's vote confirmed that.

Text of the agreement and all of its details have not been made public.

The deal, which critics of Mayor David Miller have criticized as being too generous, offers TTC workers improved health benefits and three years of 3-per-cent annual wage increases, that will make TTC drivers the best paid in the Greater Toronto Area.

But in a clause seized on by critics, the deal also offers bus drivers an additional raise in December of 2009 if their pay falls behind that of other Toronto-area drivers, something the union says it deserves because of the demands of driving a bus or a streetcar in the city.

Tight votes by the union are nothing new.

Just 60 per cent of voting union members approved the last contract in 2005, with two-thirds casting ballots, the union said at the time.

In 1991, 58 per cent of voting union members turned down a contract negotiated by their leaders and went out on strike.

With a report from Melissa Whetstone

Recommend this article? 23 votes
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Old April 26th, 2008, 07:38 AM   #758
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I can't wait to see the mess of drunk driving accidents, gas price increases, cab rides to the suburbs, assaults on unknowing people waiting for a transit bus that will never show up, etc.

All this strike will do is:

- have the public lose all respect and support for the TTC union
- remove the TTC's right to strike
- push forward highway proposals through the inner city
- chase more people and business out of the city and into the suburbs... or maybe Alberta

On the plus side, this may cause Mr. Miller to resign as mayor.
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Old April 26th, 2008, 08:00 AM   #759
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There are highway proposals in the inner city?
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Old April 26th, 2008, 08:07 AM   #760
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There are highway proposals in the inner city?
There were. Toronto was supposed to look like this once upon a time:



Instead, we focused on improving transit and frequency to world class levels, even on the outskirts of the city. As car prices increased and now as gas goes to $1.20 per litre (will be $1.30 by dawn I'm willing to bet) this plan ended up having excellent foresight.

Unfortunately, this asinine and irresponsible move is only going to push more people to cars, regardless of cost or impact on the environment. These people can also vote, and this may put pressure to in fact build highways over transit.
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