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Old October 13th, 2014, 07:40 AM   #1521
Gil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markotic View Post
What? What??? What drugs are you on? Let me know, because my friend may be very interested in them, for I have not heard such a wrong statement.

The sheppard subway indeed gets huge ridership.
Does it just seem like huge ridership because they run with shorter trains and as a consequence the stations have been temporarily shortened to accommodate them? When the City and TTC were in dire financial straits why did they consider shutting the line down?

Despite all of the condos lining Sheppard, there's still horrendous traffic along the street and the cross-streets. Weren't they supposed to be attracted to the subway running along the street?
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Old October 13th, 2014, 09:18 PM   #1522
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Does it just seem like huge ridership because they run with shorter trains and as a consequence the stations have been temporarily shortened to accommodate them? When the City and TTC were in dire financial straits why did they consider shutting the line down?

Despite all of the condos lining Sheppard, there's still horrendous traffic along the street and the cross-streets. Weren't they supposed to be attracted to the subway running along the street?
I don't see why shortened stations have anything to do with anything relevant here. The stations are absolutely fine.
The article was written in a time when times were hard, and of course they need to scream little to get a little. Notice that they say that the ridership was some 40,000 at the time - now ridership on sheppard is 50,000ish. Those are very respectable numbers. For one to call that empty is downright very troubling.
The problem with Sheppard is that it is not longer. It needs to be longer. For example, it should connect to the spadina line, and it should go further east also. That way it would have much more use, much more value, much more ridership. As a stub line it is doing great and amazing.
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Old October 14th, 2014, 01:14 AM   #1523
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The Eglinton bus currently handles more people than the Sheppard subway... Look, around 90% of Sheppard's ridership goes from Don Mills to Yonge, the intermediate stations get very little use. This essentailly says that by extending it you simply let the same people get on at the end of the line further down.

Sheppard is very underused, period if the full line was constructed ridership would probably double, but then you would end up with a line running at half the capacity as bloor but with the same length. Eglinton is going to be even more lightly used, thus the LRT.
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Old October 15th, 2014, 01:38 AM   #1524
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From Urban Toronto

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Dundas West + Bloor UPX Station Oct. 11:









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Old October 15th, 2014, 02:30 AM   #1525
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Streetcars back on the Queen's Quay and at Union Station, videos by drum118 at Urban Toronto.





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Old October 16th, 2014, 05:42 AM   #1526
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Old October 16th, 2014, 07:53 AM   #1527
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How long is the undergroundtram route?
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Old October 16th, 2014, 03:21 PM   #1528
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How long is the undergroundtram route?
Eglinton Crosstown line will be 19 km long. Plus approximately 1 km of underground streetcar tracks. (700 m for Union-Queens Quay/York St section, appr. 100 m of St. Clair West tunnel and appr. 200 m for Spandina loop). The results measured with help of Google Maps measuring
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Old October 16th, 2014, 06:09 PM   #1529
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Construction of new BRT lane in Mississauga, western part of Greater Toronto. Erin Mills station:


October 2014 by Metrolinx, on Flickr


October 2014 by Metrolinx, on Flickr


October 2014 by Metrolinx, on Flickr


October 2014 by Metrolinx, on Flickr
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Old October 17th, 2014, 12:41 AM   #1530
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Eglinton will be comprised of 7 portions, 4 underground sections, 2 surface portions, and elevated portion. Heading east from Kennedy station, the LRT runs underground for around 400 meters, and then comes to the surface. It then runs in median, crossing 13 stoplights over 5.6km before dropping underground again to cross under Don Mills Avenue. The tunnel under Don Mills lasts for around 400 meters, and emerges again on the surface. It runs 1.2km on the surface again, crossing a single stoplight, before going underground for the central tunnel. The tunnel runs 10.6km, emerging just east of Black Creek. It then transitions into an elevated section over Black Creek Drive, which is roughly 400 meters long, and then dives underground for a final time for around 150 meters to reach the terminal station.


Once all of the LRT lines are constructed Toronto will have roughly 12.7km of new tunnels, as the Sheppard LRT also contains a 1km LRT tunnel in it.

Toronto currently has 29km of underground transit funded, technically.

Total funded:

27km Rapid Transit (subway / grade seperated LRT)
31km LRT (in median not grade seperated)
1.4km Streetcar
36km BRT

Last edited by Innsertnamehere; October 17th, 2014 at 01:02 AM.
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Old October 28th, 2014, 04:19 AM   #1531
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How does tonight's mayoral election affect the future of Toronto transit?
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Old October 28th, 2014, 05:30 AM   #1532
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How does tonight's mayoral election affect the future of Toronto transit?
Nothing really, in 4 years we will vote in another mayor that will undo what the previous mayor did, for better or for worse.
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Old October 28th, 2014, 06:11 AM   #1533
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Nothing really, in 4 years we will vote in another mayor that will undo what the previous mayor did, for better or for worse.
You sound delusional.
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Old October 28th, 2014, 07:18 AM   #1534
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sounds cynical to me, not delusional. A jab at how nothing ever gets done because the next mayor just changes it.


What it does mean for sure is that the Scarborough subway is safe, but beyond that it is unknown really. Tory was very vague on his transit platform beyond Smart-Track which is impossible to build in its proposed form, so I really think we will see in the next year or so what this election actually means for transit.
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Old October 28th, 2014, 08:01 AM   #1535
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What it does mean for sure is that the Scarborough subway is safe, but beyond that it is unknown really. Tory was very vague on his transit platform beyond Smart-Track which is impossible to build in its proposed form, so I really think we will see in the next year or so what this election actually means for transit.
Care to explain it? I'm not really into transit discussion, did I miss something? Why do you think it's so difficult to build? Smart track looks like a GO RER on steroids, with more stops and (maybe?) subway rolling stock.
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Old October 28th, 2014, 08:18 AM   #1536
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Quote:
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Care to explain it? I'm not really into transit discussion, did I miss something? Why do you think it's so difficult to build? Smart track looks like a GO RER on steroids, with more stops and (maybe?) subway rolling stock.


The proposal called for the Smart Track line to come off the rail corridor at Eglinton and then head west. With a stop at the Mt. Dennis where the switch is made. In order to complete that line as depicted homes and businesses would need to be expropriated. If the line uses the same type of trains that GO Transit uses on the corridor even more will need to be expropriated as they require a larger turning radius. It has also been noted that several plots of land along Eglinton which the line would run had already been sold off for development, requiring the line to either run deep below them or be shoehorned into the Eglinton Ave. ROW.

There's been little in terms of details regarding whether or not this is an independent plan or if he's just piggybacking on a Metrolinx project hoping to get the credit for it. The central and western portions of the route seem anemic in terms of the number of stations compared to what Scarborough will get coupled with the subway City Council had earlier agreed on.

There are also concerns about whether or not Union Station can handle the additional traffic. The City's Downtown Relief Line was mindful of this issue and was looking at the best place to distribute passengers though downtown. That particular project appears to have been relegated to the back burner with Mr. Tory's scheme.

Had the Smart Track continued along the rail corridor into northern Etobicoke it would not only serve more people who need the improvement, but it would also free up the Eglinton LRT to continue westwards as a natural extension of the line. Hopefully once they actually see the obstacles in creating the line as is they will reconsider and fine tune the design.
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Old October 28th, 2014, 05:10 PM   #1537
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So is there any chance an Eglinton heavy rail subway line is still in the planning?

I think extending the Bloor line to Square One would be a good idea.
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Old October 28th, 2014, 05:59 PM   #1538
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Smart Track is proposing this:

15 minute service using EMUs, so not GO trains or subway trains.

Something like this:



Now, there are 3 major problems with the proposed alignment, and a ton of illogical choices (though possible choices) for station placements.

Number 1 of the three is the alignment on Eglinton. It presumes to use what is known as the Richview expressway corridor, a stretch of land along Eglinton that sits empty as Eglinton was originally planned to be upgraded to a freeway to meet up with the 400 extension, both of which never happened. Now this makes sense on the surface, however this land has in fact recently been sold off, and there are several townhome projects underway along it. This mistake was apparently made due to the election crew using outdated satellite imagery from 2009, not even a site visit.

This causes issues of course now as there is no land to run the trains, and will require tunnelling through many sections. Then there is the issue of getting off the rail corridor onto Eglinton though Mount Dennis, a historic main street community. The train will have to enter a tunnel at some point, arrive at an underground station somehow constructed below the neighborhood to interchange with the Eglinton LRT, and then turn almost 90 degrees underground and navigate a valley before popping up again on Eglinton. Then it will probably have to duck down underground again to go under the aforementioned townhome developments. Probably a $2 billion or more project, to run a small train every 15 minutes through a low density neighborhood.

For comparision, the Eglinton LRT extension through the area is expected to cost around $500 million, and has no tunnelling issues as it runs in the middle of the street and the station around Mount Dennis is already being constructed as part of phase 1.


Number 2 of issues is Union station. Union Station is currently undergoing over a Billion dollars in upgrades to increase capacity and deal with GO transits 6%+ annual ridership growth for the coming decades, up to around 2035. Smart Track was obviously not accounted for in these upgrades, and is expected to bring it up to capacity on opening day. Forget capacity increases, Union will be just as overloaded as today with Smart-Track (provided the ridership projections for Smart-Track are true, which I find unlikely, but that is another issue). on opening day, apparently 2021 (unlikely given the need for extensive tunnelling which is at minimum a 10 year process), 15 years ahead of schedule. Union will then have to start some other form of capacity expansion, or still languish in a severely over capacity state.

Issue number 3 is the Stouffville corridor, the part that Tory wants it to run on through Scarborough and up to Markham. This corridor is wide enough to fit 2 tracks in it, which is enough for the planned GO service on the corridor, but not the GO service plus Smart-Track. Now Tory could argue to cancel the GO service, but that would do nothing but piss off the people who live north of Unionville on the line. The two simply cannot fit together on the line, period. No amount of money, unlike the last two problems, can fix this one.


Then there is the issue of budget, ridership, capacity, etc. that all hit immediate and fairly obvious issues. A budget that at first glance appears far overestimated (Metrolinx is talking about electrifying and bringing the entire GO network up to 15 minute frequencies for $12 billion, how the hell does it cost $8 billion to do the same on 2 lines?), Ridership is way too optimistic given how the line hits almost 0 trip generators and generally runs through low density areas (especially the stupidly expensive Eglinton Spur), but even then, if the ridership projections did turn out to be true, the line would be horribly over capacity with 15 minute frequencies, etc.


Then of course the part where GO transit is already planning to do most of what Tory is planning to do, making most of the project redundant.

What I am thinking will happen / hoping to happen is that we will see smart track sort of quietly rolled into GO electrification with a few extra stations and integrated fares (both of which GO is already planning, but they can play it up as though it is Smart-Track), the Eglinton spur die a quiet death, and the city can move on to getting the DRL built.
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Old October 28th, 2014, 06:03 PM   #1539
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So is there any chance an Eglinton heavy rail subway line is still in the planning?

I think extending the Bloor line to Square One would be a good idea.
Eglinton is getting the LRT, so no, no heavy rail subway.

Subway to Square One is also a dumb idea and will not be happening.
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Old October 29th, 2014, 12:21 AM   #1540
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Number 1 of the three is the alignment on Eglinton. It presumes to use what is known as the Richview expressway corridor, a stretch of land along Eglinton that sits empty as Eglinton was originally planned to be upgraded to a freeway to meet up with the 400 extension, both of which never happened. Now this makes sense on the surface, however this land has in fact recently been sold off, and there are several townhome projects underway along it. This mistake was apparently made due to the election crew using outdated satellite imagery from 2009, not even a site visit.
I think the move to Eglinton was so they don't have to build phase 2 of the Crosstown LRT. If I remember correctly he didn't support any LRT in early days of his campaign and then he supported Finch and Sheppard LRTs near the end from Oliva Chow's pressuring questions about it.

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Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere View Post
Issue number 3 is the Stouffville corridor, the part that Tory wants it to run on through Scarborough and up to Markham. This corridor is wide enough to fit 2 tracks in it, which is enough for the planned GO service on the corridor, but not the GO service plus Smart-Track. Now Tory could argue to cancel the GO service, but that would do nothing but piss off the people who live north of Unionville on the line. The two simply cannot fit together on the line, period. No amount of money, unlike the last two problems, can fix this one.
They could put passing tracks at the stations for Regional / Local service. From what I seen Kennedy and Agincourt have parking lots that can be removed for it. IDK if there is enough room for 4 tracks + platform just an idea.

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Ridership is way too optimistic given how the line hits almost 0 trip generators and generally runs through low density areas (especially the stupidly expensive Eglinton Spur), but even then, if the ridership projections did turn out to be true, the line would be horribly over capacity with 15 minute frequencies, etc.
There are or will be some big trip generators saying 0 is a little harsh:
Markham City Center - Huge tech center with lots of blue chip companies based there along the Viva BRT
Airport Corporate Center - Lots of offices
Airport - given how close it will be shuttles will probably operate to and from it. Unless UP express or the GTAA bars that from happening due to lost revenue.
Liberty Village - Didn't they have one the world's first crowdfunded bus route paralleling the 504 King Car because even areas "well served" by transit are not actually getting good service.
Pacific Mall Area one of the GTA's eight Chinatowns with 1 million SF of Asian retail in 3 adjacent malls. Not including the numerous other retail that surrounds it. It is planned to expand to 2 million SF with each mall drawing up expansion plans. One of the biggest concerns of building that much mall space is the poor transit options of the area. FYI for comparison Yorkdale is 1.5 million SF and has a subway connection.
DOWNTOWN no need to explain here.
Agincourt - Toronto's other Chinatown with significant amount of retail and medium density along the Sheppard LRT. Long time residents of Toronto knows what its nickname is.

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Then of course the part where GO transit is already planning to do most of what Tory is planning to do, making most of the project redundant.
Well Tory "brought in" the idea of using the GO lines to serve the 416. Something GO acknowledges it can do but it really hesitant about even post - electrification. Also using EMUs (assuming he had EMUs in mind he was very vague about it) GO transit's electrification report states that they prefer to use electric locos with double deck consists a la NJ Transit. These 2 decisions probably affected GO's direction on how to improve the network. (If they got additional 416 stations they would prefer EMUs and vice versa) Also timeline advantages. GO says it will eventually electrify its rail lines but the completion timeline is very loose or non-existent, falling under the subject to funding pitfall. Tory has a time-frame and funding strategies for it. (however extremely questionable they both will be, it's the thought that counts )

On the TTC side the idea fare integration with GO. Transit Advocates have been talking about it for years and the media for months but it's nice to see it being official in mayoral platforms. Not saying Smart track is revolutionary or original (well it is to the general public) or the best plan but it does bring ideas to the forefront.

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the Eglinton spur die a quiet death, and the city can move on to getting the DRL built.
+1 no need for political Bullcrap

Last edited by saiho; October 30th, 2014 at 01:55 AM.
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