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Old December 15th, 2015, 08:10 AM   #1861
hkskyline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
It doesn't necessarily cost extra because OT is only offered by a company when extra labour is needed, and it's cheaper to pay an existing employee a lot more to perform the labour than to hire a new worker in order to cover these busy times when there are other times that they'll be under utilized. Not to mention that having more workers means having more people they would need to hire through an expensive worker acquisition process. Not to mention the cost to train (often ongoing), supervise, and offer benefits to an additional person. In other words, the cost to hire and employ a worker is not just in their compensation. Even if their salary was double, having two people each making $50,000 is often costlier than one person making $100,000, or even $125,000 depending on the needs or the organization.

Not to mention that if the labour need is expected to not be long term, it can be hard to lay off a worker and the worker may be owed expensive severance pay.
The right question to ask is whether the OT is justified, given service has stagnated, ridership growth has slowed, yet we persistently see TTC occupying positions on the sunshine list year over year. Have service hours been extended so ticket collectors need to pull consistent OT? Why hasn't automation (Presto) reduced this? Wouldn't persistent OT violate labour laws on working hours?

http://www.cp24.com/news/ttc-overtim...year-1.2390089

Looking at the OT figures in the above news report, we clearly see OT has grown much more than ridership. For a stagnant network, same operational hours, and new extensions still not open, I don't see why ticket collectors need to pull persistent OT.
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Old December 15th, 2015, 04:34 PM   #1862
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Guys. Please. You are taking over the thread. Can you take this to PMs, maybe?
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Old December 15th, 2015, 07:11 PM   #1863
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
The right question to ask is whether the OT is justified, given service has stagnated, ridership growth has slowed, yet we persistently see TTC occupying positions on the sunshine list year over year. Have service hours been extended so ticket collectors need to pull consistent OT? Why hasn't automation (Presto) reduced this? Wouldn't persistent OT violate labour laws on working hours?

http://www.cp24.com/news/ttc-overtim...year-1.2390089

Looking at the OT figures in the above news report, we clearly see OT has grown much more than ridership. For a stagnant network, same operational hours, and new extensions still not open, I don't see why ticket collectors need to pull persistent OT.
These are certainly valid questions, but obviously we'd need to find the answers before coming to any conclusion. It's possible that management used poor judgement in offering overtime, or it's possible there are other factors that aren't apparent to someone observing solely from the outside.
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Old December 15th, 2015, 07:13 PM   #1864
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Originally Posted by 00Zy99 View Post
Guys. Please. You are taking over the thread. Can you take this to PMs, maybe?
The reason this discussion - which is directly related to transit in Toronto - has dominated discussion, is that no one else is posting anything else. If there's something else that's important to discuss, there's no reason people can't discuss it. It's not like the thread is locked to any other discussion as long as one line of discussion is happening.
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Old December 15th, 2015, 09:44 PM   #1865
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
The reason this discussion - which is directly related to transit in Toronto - has dominated discussion, is that no one else is posting anything else. If there's something else that's important to discuss, there's no reason people can't discuss it. It's not like the thread is locked to any other discussion as long as one line of discussion is happening.
As far as I can tell, this is a discussion between two people about methods of government financing that includes Toronto transit in its scope, but is also becoming abstract. If there is nothing DIRECTLY pertaining to developments in Toronto (and not financing theory) then maybe the thread should be allowed to rest.
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Old December 16th, 2015, 04:12 AM   #1866
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A recent poll conducted here in Alberta shows that Toronto has been ranked (yet again) as worst commuter and public transportation experience out of the big six cities in Canada (or basically those cities with a heavy rail transit/light rail transit).

Rankings from best to worst:

1. Vancouver
2. Calgary
3. Montreal
4. Edmonton
5. Ottawa
6. Toronto
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Old December 17th, 2015, 06:58 PM   #1867
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Spec sheet is out for the locomotive repower. Looks like a LOT was changed aside from the prime mover repower.

Official Spec Sheet for the GO Transit MPxpress Repower: https://www.wabtec.com/uploads/MP54_QuickSpec_B.pdf

New features include inverter driven HEP (720 kW capacity), leaving 4600 nominal traction HP with a nominal HEP load of 450 - 500 kW (5400 gross HP). AC traction equipment has been equipped.

Tractive effort is fairly high for a passenger locomotive, (82,000 lbs starting and 50,700 lbs /continuous), and top speed has been raised to 110 MPH, with 62:15 gearing and 40" wheels.

Fuel consumption on these brutes is likely to be very high (given the specifications I was able to pull up for the QSK60; http://www.wpowerproducts.com/prodIm...ec%20sheet.pdf). With both engines on, notch 8 fuel consumption is around 270 gph.

Contrary to stuff I've been hearing about "lengthened carbodies", overall length remains at 68 feet over coupler faces.
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Old December 18th, 2015, 12:52 AM   #1868
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolony View Post
A recent poll conducted here in Alberta shows that Toronto has been ranked (yet again) as worst commuter and public transportation experience out of the big six cities in Canada (or basically those cities with a heavy rail transit/light rail transit).

Rankings from best to worst:

1. Vancouver
2. Calgary
3. Montreal
4. Edmonton
5. Ottawa
6. Toronto
Why would a poll pertaining to cities across the entire country be conducted in Alberta? Not that there's anything wrong with Albertans, but is the average person there really an expert in public transit in all those places?
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Old December 18th, 2015, 12:55 AM   #1869
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No such poll was conducted. It's a hoax. Can't believe you fell for it.
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Old December 20th, 2015, 06:48 AM   #1870
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Someone has too much time on their hands, I guess.
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Old January 2nd, 2016, 12:29 PM   #1871
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Seems the Presto implementation will pick up in 2016 : http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toront...-ttc-1.3385868

Start saving all those paper transfers - they might be a good collectible one day!
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Old January 8th, 2016, 05:08 AM   #1872
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I don't know if the question was raised before but I just got around to wondering: why is the Crosstown LRT project being labelled as an LRT? From a technical standpoint the line will be no different from the numerous streetcar lines Toronto has (not even the fact that it's partially underground is much different. Remember: 509 exists) and it will use the same Flexity Outlooks the "streetcar lines" use. Might as well just start calling all streetcars LRTs now

Actually this question perhaps may not even need an answer considering I know it's just marketing BS to make the Toronto council/TTC look competent and doing something advanced for Toronto
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Old January 8th, 2016, 06:37 AM   #1873
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Originally Posted by Balkanada View Post
I don't know if the question was raised before but I just got around to wondering: why is the Crosstown LRT project being labelled as an LRT? From a technical standpoint the line will be no different from the numerous streetcar lines Toronto has (not even the fact that it's partially underground is much different. Remember: 509 exists) and it will use the same Flexity Outlooks the "streetcar lines" use. Might as well just start calling all streetcars LRTs now

Actually this question perhaps may not even need an answer considering I know it's just marketing BS to make the Toronto council/TTC look competent and doing something advanced for Toronto
The Eglinton Crosstown LRT will be using Flexity Freedom LRVs. While they are similar to the Flexity Outlooks the LRT, the line and the LRVs are designed to allow for 3 Flexity Freedom's to be connected together to form a train. The rolling stock of the streetcar lines can't do that. Also, half of the first phase of the Crosstown LRT is underground and separated from traffic. as opposed to the 509 which is ~10% grade separated.
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Old January 9th, 2016, 03:55 AM   #1874
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balkanada View Post
I don't know if the question was raised before but I just got around to wondering: why is the Crosstown LRT project being labelled as an LRT? From a technical standpoint the line will be no different from the numerous streetcar lines Toronto has (not even the fact that it's partially underground is much different. Remember: 509 exists) and it will use the same Flexity Outlooks the "streetcar lines" use. Might as well just start calling all streetcars LRTs now

Actually this question perhaps may not even need an answer considering I know it's just marketing BS to make the Toronto council/TTC look competent and doing something advanced for Toronto
Are you serious? Marketting BS???

The line will be over half underground with over 10km in tunnel. Few other full LRT lines can claim that, and certainly no streetcars I can think of. The streetcars in Toronto are only underground to connect with other services like the subway. And the stops will be an average of 500m apart on the surface, and 805m apart undergorund. The line is probably closer to being a metro than even a typical LRT. This line will be completely different from any other line in the city is a higher grade of LRT than most other LRT lines.
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Old January 9th, 2016, 08:52 AM   #1875
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LRT is marketing bullshit
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Old January 9th, 2016, 06:53 PM   #1876
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No it isn't. At least not any more than terms like "metro" or "commuter rail" or "subway" as there tend to be important distinctions between it and modes like streetcars and trams in NA. But you're free to believe whatever you want.
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Old January 9th, 2016, 07:08 PM   #1877
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LRT = Trams/Trolleys
Metro = Subway
HRT = Commuter rail/Intercity rail/High speed rail

Whether subways belong to either LRT of HRT depends on if you're going with the European or North-American definition. In this case it can be a category of its own.

Streetcars are essentially a form of trams (which come in all kinds and shapes), but with the specific requirement that they run on the street. The only reason to continue this practice or naming convention is because of historic reasons. Toronto has shown that streetcars can get their own lanes or tunnels. Name the thing a trolley, LRT or tram and suddenly the street requirement would cease to exist. Then again, the name trolley was used because of historic reasons as well (trolley poles have started disappearing for a while now), and LRT sounds artificial and unromantic.

What it comes down to is that in these days the types of systems can come in many forms, and there really should only be naming distinctions if they really matter.

Last edited by MrAronymous; January 9th, 2016 at 07:13 PM.
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Old January 9th, 2016, 08:03 PM   #1878
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It's for those historic reasons that we simply that we don't use the term "tram" for a streetcar in American English. The term tram is used for aerial tram/cable cars here. There are just some regional differences, as things may be one way in one continent or region and different in another. There are definitely differences between NA and Europe in this regard, and referencing European terms or conventions isn't useful here.

Also, streetcar vs LRT it isn't just defined by whether or not the vehicle is in its own lane, but also whether or not it's part of road traffic and subject to traffic rules. There are some LRT systems that have a dedicated street ROW, but they operate faster than the surrounding traffic and are separated by crossing arms at intersections (common in Calgary) or at least separated by traffic signal pre-emption. Such systems are intended for longer distance service than a streetcar and therefore have larger stop spacing. That's not to say that such systems don't have short sections where they operate like a streetcar, but a system is defined by it's dominant characteristics.

Also, people sometimes focus a lot on rolling stock, but it's the operational characteristics that's really important. It's common to make the distinction between commuter rail and intercity rail even though the rolling stock may be similar or even identical. It's also common to distinguish between metro and commuter rail even though there can also be overlap between the rolling stock of these modes. Some commuter systems use single deck EMUs that look almost identical to some metro cars. Likewise, the fact that the rolling stock may be similar or even the same between streetcars and LRT has little relevance.

Now that's not to say that there aren't cases in which an inappropriate name isn't chosen for marketing purposes. There are LRT and commuter rail systems named metros, metro systems named light rail, express buses named rapid transit, and so forth. But that simply isn't the case with the Crosstown line. And of course just because someone may name a commuter rail system a metro, or a streetcar line an LRT on occasion, doesn't mean there's suddenly no difference between the real things. Instead of saying there should only be naming distinctions if they really matter, we should be saying we should only name systems appropriately so that the public doesn't get the impression that the distinctions don't matter.
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Old January 9th, 2016, 09:47 PM   #1879
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What I meant to say was that the crosstown LRT will give a similar service to some streetcar lines (own right of way, using very similar vehicles, partially street level running). That's why I don't see the need to add an new 'category' to the current transit modes, if you're not going to have more than 1 or two (LRT) lines anyway. I'm thinking, and hoping, that in the future more streetcar lines will get their own right of way, and of course they will all get the new vehicles, so the distinction between the Crosstown and regular streetcar would get even smaller. Using more names than neccessary can be more confusing and more difficult, if not more expensive. (marketing purposes)

It is generally accepted that in one system there can be differences between lines. Look at new vs. old infrastructure/vehicles on some subway systems for example. The same thing goes for Toronto; there are mixed-traffic lines and lines with own right of way and with stops that are clearly segregated from motor traffic. Yet there's no destinction between those lines in marketing, think different colours or names (Rapid, Xpress, Limited, etc.). It's not that difficult for people to grasp. Maybe that has to do with the old fashioned stop spacing, but still.

The name streetcar itself is quite unfortunate (imho) because it has these historic implications I already menationed before, but it is an established Toronto name. In the future there will be: bus, streetcar, LRT, subway, GO RER. I just think it's a shame that the Crosstown LRT will become a new mode in stead of a 'streetcar+', which could raise the standard for the rest of the streetcar system. That's all.
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Old January 9th, 2016, 10:53 PM   #1880
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The name streetcar itself is quite unfortunate (imho) because it has these historic implications I already menationed before, but it is an established Toronto name. In the future there will be: bus, streetcar, LRT, subway, GO RER. I just think it's a shame that the Crosstown LRT will become a new mode in stead of a 'streetcar+', which could raise the standard for the rest of the streetcar system. That's all.
The legacy streetcar is way too different with the Crosstown LRT to market as the same technology. "Streetcar+" marketing in an attempt raise the perceived standard of the legacy network will definitely be seen as marketing BS in Toronto and tarnish the image of the new LRT at the same time. Many sections of the legacy streetcars have huge operational and infrastructural constraints making any attempt to improve them to the level of service comparable to the Crosstown LRT unfeasible and not cost effective. In addition, they both serve very different urban forms and travel markets of Toronto.
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