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Old March 21st, 2008, 01:31 AM   #421
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Originally posted by Daniel_Portugal











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Old March 21st, 2008, 08:18 PM   #422
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It's amazingly beautiful. Fantastic system!


By the way, can a moderator change the title of the thread? "Subway" is completely misleading, as it is a tram system with lightrail and underground sections.
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Old March 22nd, 2008, 07:29 PM   #423
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nomenclature is not a problem....

subway, metro, tram...

is metro do porto... is a mix sistem between a lot of transport tipes... a new line, regular full metro ( automatic) in network future expansion....

the underground parts will expand...

the actual vehicles are eurotrams... but diferent vehicles will use de network in future....
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Old March 28th, 2008, 06:29 AM   #424
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nossa...Estou louco pra conhecer Portugal!! Esse metrô do Porto é mto lindo!! Pelas fotos o metrô parece mto limpo.
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Old March 29th, 2008, 11:06 PM   #425
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Quote:
Originally Posted by staff View Post
It's amazingly beautiful. Fantastic system!


By the way, can a moderator change the title of the thread? "Subway" is completely misleading, as it is a tram system with lightrail and underground sections.
The company is called METRO DO PORTO

- there are more than 10km of underground tunnels already ...
- the veichles are metro-stile (they are as much "metro" as london underground "tube" veichles)
- most is fully segregated track

And by the way ... Light Rail doesn't exist ...

Metro do porto is 100% METRO inside Porto city... in the suburbs (neighbouring towns) it can have some other tipes of trackage but nonetheless the Porto system is 100% metro with segregated tracks and almost entirely underground (some 30km long inside Porto and 70km overall).
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Old March 30th, 2008, 02:10 AM   #426
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podiam ser postado aqui aquele jornal com as imagens do que poderia ser a linha circular....
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Old March 30th, 2008, 05:44 AM   #427
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
And by the way ... Light Rail doesn't exist ...

Metro do porto is 100% METRO inside Porto city... in the suburbs (neighbouring towns) it can have some other tipes of trackage but nonetheless the Porto system is 100% metro with segregated tracks and almost entirely underground (some 30km long inside Porto and 70km overall).
Light rail does not mean it has to run with traffic. Vancouver's SkyTrain system is light rail, however, it's fully segregated from traffic.


SkyTrain ~ Source: Picasa
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Old March 30th, 2008, 06:05 AM   #428
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
The company is called METRO DO PORTO

- there are more than 10km of underground tunnels already ...
- the veichles are metro-stile (they are as much "metro" as london underground "tube" veichles)
- most is fully segregated track

And by the way ... Light Rail doesn't exist ...

Metro do porto is 100% METRO inside Porto city... in the suburbs (neighbouring towns) it can have some other tipes of trackage but nonetheless the Porto system is 100% metro with segregated tracks and almost entirely underground (some 30km long inside Porto and 70km overall).
Porto has got a a light rail network (similar to Stadtbahn or Premetro networks elsewhere in Europe), not a full metro.

By the way:
London underground trains are completely different from Porto tramways!
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Yo si la ciudad no tiene metro, como que no es gran ciudad y entonces ya paso de vivir allí. Norreport+12000
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Old March 30th, 2008, 07:51 PM   #429
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bitxofo... exiten miles de formas de vehiculos... con miles de capacidades diferentes y todos puden andar bajo tierra, por superficie, o por aire...

por questiones ambentales funcionarán en futuro todos por electricidad por cierto...

yo conosco por exemplo la red de Augsburg, y es completamente distinto de la de porto...

otra cosa, bitxofo, puedes ir al foro portugués mirar el thread del metro de porto con las ideas de la linea circular automática totalmente soterrada....
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Old March 30th, 2008, 10:53 PM   #430
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Old April 2nd, 2008, 02:08 AM   #431
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bitxofo View Post
Porto has got a a light rail network (similar to Stadtbahn or Premetro networks elsewhere in Europe), not a full metro.

By the way:
London underground trains are completely different from Porto tramways!
FACTS:
London "tube" veicles are LOWER than Porto "metro" veicles ... have LOWER platforms ... have LESS frequencies ...
Porto Network is fully segregated (only peripery spurs are tram like)
Porto are planing to put the TGV inside the metro tubes ...

If a 20km "metro" network is called "pre-metro" ... so be it ... have fun.


London "tube" veichles are LESS "metro" than PORTO mass transit veichles ... be it either "Metro do Porto" EUROTRAM or CP Porto series 3400 EMU's ...


In the same manner in london ... Soutwestern comuter trains are more "Metro" than some of the periphery routes od London Underground network ...

By your standards PARIS has NO METRO ... since half of paris runs on tires ... it fails to meet the standards of "full metro".

Some of London Underground stations have free acess , lack of segregation or even share trackage with the rest of the national rail network ... so they also fail to meet the "almighty" "full metro" holy standard.

Never even dare to call Tokyo Metro as a "full metro" ... sicne comuter trains and metro trains enter and exit the system at their operators wills and whims ... so you get METRO in level crossings and COMUTER in metro tubes all day long ... removed from "full metro" list of heavenly entrance altogether.
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Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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Last edited by sotavento; April 2nd, 2008 at 02:17 AM.
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Old April 2nd, 2008, 08:57 PM   #432
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Please don't argue with this one:

Quote:
The Porto Metro (Metro do Porto), part of the mass transit public transport system of Porto, Portugal, is a light-rail network of electrified railways that run underground in central Porto and above ground into the city's suburbs. The Porto Metro was founded in 2002, and it was for years one of the major construction sites in the European Union.
Source: Wikipedia

And please, Porto Metro is a Flexity Outlook train vehicle by Bombardier Transportation - they too categorize this system as a Light Rail. Feel free to check Bombardier Transportation yourself.

The deal is: many above grade stations of the Porto Metro allow me to cross the tracks to the other platform. This is IMPOSSIBLE with the Tube and many other metro systems in the world.

Light rail is just a form of technology and does not necessarly mean that it's a step below metro. In fact, many modern day light rail systems are designed with higher and higher capacity, for instance, Seattle - with a future capacity of 4 trains (initial with 2).
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Old April 2nd, 2008, 10:16 PM   #433
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I think de diference between metro do porto and trams like SanFranciso ( and porto too, ) is bigger than de diferrence between metro do porto and other metro in the world...

porto has had a big tram network, really big tram network... actual metro is completely diferent... and we have ideas to create a tram network in porto, with modern vhicles...but completely independent from "metro do porto"...
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Old April 3rd, 2008, 05:04 AM   #434
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deasine View Post
Please don't argue with this one:

Source: Wikipedia

And please, Porto Metro is a Flexity Outlook train vehicle by Bombardier Transportation - they too categorize this system as a Light Rail. Feel free to check Bombardier Transportation yourself.

The deal is: many above grade stations of the Porto Metro allow me to cross the tracks to the other platform. This is IMPOSSIBLE with the Tube and many other metro systems in the world.

Light rail is just a form of technology and does not necessarly mean that it's a step below metro. In fact, many modern day light rail systems are designed with higher and higher capacity, for instance, Seattle - with a future capacity of 4 trains (initial with 2).
I made it my policy some years ago to NEVER EVER enter in an argument wich involves someone quoting the Wikipedia ... You will be no exception.


I give your 2 quick examples of your failed view on this matter:

1st example: question ... What is a metro???

- "Metro do Porto" (the company) currently runs one(1) tipe of veichle (the eurotram from bombardier) on four (4) different kinds of trackage (underground metro [2 routes both some 4/5km long] , surface metro [some other 4/5km], street running [3/4 spurs to Matosinhos , airport , Gaia and Maia] and 2 large suburban routes to Maia and Povoa do Varzim).
The "tram" network nowadays is just a patch of loose and unconnected pieces ...

Recently "Tram-Train" veichles were bought to run on the suburban spur to Povoa ... when the "suburban" routes get their new trains the "eurotrams" will go to the new extension (also "tram" stile) to Gondomar.
Until the eurotrams are not enough to run the entire(majority actualy) of the system "dedicated" trains to run in the central routes will not be needed. (same as in any other route)

The "network" was not planned to be segregated in any way ... it was suposed to be an "addition" to the old routes in the area.

- On the other hand the London (given example) was planned to be fully segregated from the start ... as in the majority of the railways in britain it was "imposed" that same segregation.

2nd example:

Railway lines with level crossings have speeds restricted to 140km/h ... it is prohibited to cross at more than 140 km/h ... more than 140km/h only on FULLY segregated rails.

Railway level crossings in britain exist even in ECML and are crossed at speeds of 200km/h ...

No definition is perfect and without faults ...

If you look at the railway construction companies you can see that the "metro" market is practicaly DEAD nowadays ... only OLD companies still buy "metro" cars ... alll the new "metro" systems are labeled as "light rail" ... because it is only a new name for them ...

It's funny to see veichles like the "eurotram" (catchy name) or even DLR coaches labeled as "light rail" when they are used on dedicated mass transit corridors ... and then we see "metro" stamped so easily on such things as Glasgow midget underground system ... or even on TIRE trains ...

Some people just cant see that the line drawn between "tram" and "metro" has been long gone ... now its just the "light rail" and nothing more.

Light rail refers to the infraestructure and not the trains running on it ... and you can as easily see light rail + tram ... or light rail + metro in any page of a railway construction company.

http://www.bombardier.com/index.jsp?...en/1_0/1_0.jsp
Quote:
Light Rail Transit System - Izmir, Turkey

In August 2000, Bombardier Transportation, under contract to the Mayoralty of the Greater City of Izmir, Turkey, successfully launched an 11.5-km (7.1-mi.) light rail system linking the downtown business area with the suburbs. The segregated, doubletrack system is the first phase of the city's vision to build a 50-km (31.3-mi.) metro system to alleviate traffic congestion in this growing metropolis.

Tram > light rail > comuter ... "metro" label can land on any of these quite easily ... even on DLR and TIRE stiles "metro" naming can fit nicely.
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Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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Old April 3rd, 2008, 06:15 AM   #435
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^ Which is why I provided a quote from Bombardier Transportation to back that statement up. I will never quote from Wikipedia (not unless it's for pictures) if I do not provide a backup statement for it. I'm sure you wouldn't have missed it.

I'm not arguing about metro/light rail. I don't care if they call it "Porto Metro", London calling their system a "metro", or perhaps a streetcar a "metro." It's basically used as a common name/title for rail-transportation these days. However, officially:

Quote:
metro ~ n. (pl. metros) an underground railway system in a city. ~ Origin: French
Source: Oxford Dictionary

Then if you want to go into the details, yes there are many systems that don't quality for that title.

Quote:
metro ~ n. pl. the underground railway of Paris, France, Montreal, etc.
Souce: Dictionary.com

And again, Bombardier Transportation categorizes Flexity Outlook as "Light Rail Vehicles" (under their navigation system)

I was arguing from the Light Rail standpoint and not the metro. As I said, to me, Metro is just a name for rail-transportation or perhaps the suburbs that make up a large city. It was you that said light rail doesn't exist:

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
And by the way ... Light Rail doesn't exist ...
Nevertheless, Porto is one of my most favorite transportation systems in the world. In fact, I'm encouraging politicians and officials to model Porto Metro's system for Vancouver's upcoming streetcar system .

Last edited by deasine; April 3rd, 2008 at 06:26 AM. Reason: /*spelling error*/
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Old April 4th, 2008, 02:16 AM   #436
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and the sistem is very complex... includes undergroubd parts, normal tram parts ( dedicated), and suburban train parts ( we also have heavy suburban trains)... and now we wil get an automatic circular line underground, that will conect with underground stations Pólo Universitário ( 2 underground lines), Casa da música ( triple underground interface, in future with 7 "metro do porto" lines, and big bus interface in surface), S.Bento ( 2/3 underground lines and all heavy suburban lines; bus; funicular; historic tram), Contumil ( heavy suburbans, 5 underground lines)...
and other " 1 line" underground stations...

other underground line prosed is Sra da hora- Hospital S. João

sra da hora is the biggest surface station, and the staion wil be uppgrade... prob.- 4 lines surface and 1 underground...

the expansions will double the network....

proposals ( with impossible ideas like put metro in arrabida bridge)...
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Old April 4th, 2008, 10:31 AM   #437
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deasine View Post
^ Which is why I provided a quote from Bombardier Transportation to back that statement up. I will never quote from Wikipedia (not unless it's for pictures) if I do not provide a backup statement for it. I'm sure you wouldn't have missed it.

I'm not arguing about metro/light rail. I don't care if they call it "Porto Metro", London calling their system a "metro", or perhaps a streetcar a "metro." It's basically used as a common name/title for rail-transportation these days. However, officially:


Source: Oxford Dictionary

Then if you want to go into the details, yes there are many systems that don't quality for that title.


Souce: Dictionary.com

And again, Bombardier Transportation categorizes Flexity Outlook as "Light Rail Vehicles" (under their navigation system)

I was arguing from the Light Rail standpoint and not the metro. As I said, to me, Metro is just a name for rail-transportation or perhaps the suburbs that make up a large city. It was you that said light rail doesn't exist:



Nevertheless, Porto is one of my most favorite transportation systems in the world. In fact, I'm encouraging politicians and officials to model Porto Metro's system for Vancouver's upcoming streetcar system .
When I say that "light rail doesn't exist" I'm only saying that "light rail" can be anithing ... even a London Underground carriage can be used and they will still call it "light rail" if they so decided ...

I feel very amused every time Ihear people calling their own mass transit systems "light rail" (something like BART or DLR is even called like LR) and then calling the Paris TIRE little trains as "full metro" as oposite to LR.

And the things get even funny when pre-metro systems are put in the same bag as 100% street running tram networks .. .since they both use the same stile of vehicles and such.

Mayby we should start calling Paris Metro by something like a "BUSWAY" ... or even those push pull freight locomotives that pull GO-Transit or even Paris RER double decks are beter labeled as "MAS-FREIGHT-TRANSIT" or some other nonsense ... sicne they ARE freight locomotives pulling those trains.

If you get what I am saying ...
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Old April 4th, 2008, 05:47 PM   #438
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I would be more inclined to call it a metro-leaning light rail system, but regardless, i still think it is one of the nicest systems I've used. My only main complaint is that I feel that there are too many stations close to each other in the suburbs thus making the rides take longer than they should (a couple more stations in the center aprts in a new line would be good though). Other that, it's a really nice system.
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Old April 4th, 2008, 08:49 PM   #439
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
When I say that "light rail doesn't exist" I'm only saying that "light rail" can be anithing ... even a London Underground carriage can be used and they will still call it "light rail" if they so decided ...
In the context that you said the statement, it was referring specifically to the Porto Metro.
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Old April 4th, 2008, 10:56 PM   #440
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suburbans ( heavy trains) network:



conected with "metro do porto" in S.Bento, Campanhã, and General Torres...
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