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Old September 30th, 2013, 08:21 PM   #181
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Quote:
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On the other hand - who'd like to buy them with such history?
Trenitalia.
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Old September 30th, 2013, 09:10 PM   #182
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Ok, it is known that Trenitalia is one of the most incompetent companies in Europe, but still...
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Old September 30th, 2013, 09:18 PM   #183
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after fixing its problems?
That's a very important caveat.

As far as I know AnsaldoBreda has never ever properly fixed anything. Even when they did get some of their previous projects running, they were still too heavy, brakes weren't really up to par and they rusted within 10-20 years so they would have to be scrapped.
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Old September 30th, 2013, 09:32 PM   #184
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AnsaldoBreda is manufacturing trains for Honolulu Rail. I think the project is on schedule without any delays so far.
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Old September 30th, 2013, 10:16 PM   #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phantom23 View Post
On the other hand - who'd like to buy them with such history?
well....actually in Italy we don't have those kind of trains...but it seems that some countries are much more efficent to take rip-off about trains as netherlands, belgium and swiss of course ....
at the present time in Italy from Ansaldo we have among others this 300kph high speed train ..that actually is one the most realiable and defenitely much more elegant then many others in Europe...not bad ....enjoy
[IMG]http://i41.************/jtujx3.jpg[/IMG]
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Old September 30th, 2013, 10:46 PM   #186
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well....actually in Italy we don't have those kind of trains...but it seems that some countries are much more efficent to take rip-off about trains as netherlands, belgium and swiss of course ....
at the present time in Italy from Ansaldo we have among others this 300kph high speed train ..that actually is one the most realiable and defenitely much more elegant then many others in Europe...not bad ....enjoy
[IMG]http://i41.************/jtujx3.jpg[/IMG]
Actually, those trains are not AnsaldoBreda designed. They are just partly put together by AnsaldoBreda, under strict supervision.

I don't know if Italy is stupid enough to buy AB-designed and produced trains... they much rather let AB export such rubbish, to increase Italy's great reputation abroad...
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Old September 30th, 2013, 10:49 PM   #187
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Trenitalia ordered some AnsaldoBreda locomotives a couple of years ago. They were intended for freight services between Italy and Austria (among others) but they've never even set foot in Austria.

It's the classic AnsaldoBreda recipe: delayed by many years, lots of faults, and in the end the customer ends up being unable to use the equipment ordered for what they planned on using it for.

Nowadays Trenitalia uses the E403 locomotives for some passenger trains. Its 15 kV equipment has alledgedly been removed, as have other features that it would never use.
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Old September 30th, 2013, 11:05 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
Actually, those trains are not AnsaldoBreda designed. They are just partly put together by AnsaldoBreda, under strict supervision.

...
you confused Frecciarossa (Etr500) above with Frecciarossa 1000 (Etr400) here in:

[IMG]http://i44.************/11r99hi.jpg[/IMG]

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Old September 30th, 2013, 11:24 PM   #189
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Frecciarossa 1000 is engineered by Bombardier, designed by Bertone, and assembled by Bombardier (60%) and AB (40%).
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Old September 30th, 2013, 11:36 PM   #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terminal View Post
you confused Frecciarossa (Etr500) with Frecciarossa 1000 (Etr400) here in:
"ETR.500 (mono-current)

Manufacturer Trevi (consortium of Alstom, Bombardier, AnsaldoBreda)"


"ETR 500 (bi-current)
ETR F 500 (tri-current)

Manufacturer Trevi (consortium of Alstom, Bombardier, AnsaldoBreda)"


So Alstom and Bombardier are in that consortium, but you think AnsaldoBreda made it?

It's basically liked Rembrandt and Vermeer let their retarded friend paint the shoes of a guy in their painting, and then allowing their retarded friend to go around saying he made the whole painting.
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Old October 1st, 2013, 12:40 AM   #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
"ETR.500 (mono-current)

Manufacturer Trevi (consortium of Alstom, Bombardier, AnsaldoBreda)"


"ETR 500 (bi-current)
ETR F 500 (tri-current)

Manufacturer Trevi (consortium of Alstom, Bombardier, AnsaldoBreda)"


So Alstom and Bombardier are in that consortium, but you think AnsaldoBreda made it?

It's basically liked Rembrandt and Vermeer let their retarded friend paint the shoes of a guy in their painting, and then allowing their retarded friend to go around saying he made the whole painting.
sorry 4you my friend but probably you like to take mistake in row ....
considering you can probably talk maybe only for what regard the two present locomotives now.
Consorzio Trevi it was totally Italian composed by only Italian companies when they built up that train:
Ansaldo
Breda
Fiat Ferroviaria
ABB Tecnomasio
Firema Trasporti
the ETR 500 when it was built up, Alstom had not yet purchased the Fiat Ferroviaria (Italian). An acquisition is not retroactive. Something similar also applies to Bombardier, which at the time of the birth of the Trevi consortium and the birth of Etr 500 was not yet own the factory of Vado Ligure always located in Italy. Inside of Etr 500 however, in the plaques of the manufacturers, there is neither trace of Alstom or Bombardier. Surely Fiat Ferroviaria in place of Alstom. Tecnomasio or perhaps Adtranz instead of Bombardier. In addition, during the construction of Etr 500 Ansaldo and Breda had not yet fused together.

so u really still think that this train is Alstom, Bombardier product?....ahahah very funny

Last edited by terminal; October 1st, 2013 at 01:09 AM.
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Old October 1st, 2013, 01:20 AM   #192
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His point remains valid: it was not just an AnsaldoBreda (or Ansaldo and Breda) product. Lots of companies, each with their own expertise, worked on it.

And besides, both Ansaldo and Breda have been able to produce (supposedly) good rolling stock in the past (I have no experience with it), the stories I hear are mostly about the post-merger era.
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Old October 1st, 2013, 01:36 AM   #193
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well ...the point was that Silly Walks believed that Etr 500 was the results of other companies but neither of those had built up the train..so he wrongs.....another point is that built up an high speed train is the results of the join of lots of companies, each with their own expertise as u well write...so it is normal that Bombardier, Alstom, AB, Siemens and CAF are often connected in some project together
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Old October 1st, 2013, 03:13 PM   #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
That's a very important caveat.

As far as I know AnsaldoBreda has never ever properly fixed anything. Even when they did get some of their previous projects running, they were still too heavy, brakes weren't really up to par and they rusted within 10-20 years so they would have to be scrapped.
Even though I have no love for AB, the NSB Class 72 does spring to mind as a project they properly fixed.
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Old October 1st, 2013, 04:55 PM   #195
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the ETR 500 when it was built up, Alstom had not yet purchased the Fiat Ferroviaria (Italian). An acquisition is not retroactive. Something similar also applies to Bombardier, which at the time of the birth of the Trevi consortium and the birth of Etr 500 was not yet own the factory of Vado Ligure always located in Italy. Inside of Etr 500 however, in the plaques of the manufacturers, there is neither trace of Alstom or Bombardier. Surely Fiat Ferroviaria in place of Alstom. Tecnomasio or perhaps Adtranz instead of Bombardier. In addition, during the construction of Etr 500 Ansaldo and Breda had not yet fused together.
You are correct about the first generation of ETR500 trains, but wrong about the second generation.
The train in your picture is one of those second generation trainsets, and it is technically a completely different train as the first generation. The first generation was DC only, the second generation is AC/DC, as it must be to be able to run on the new high speed lines.
These trains were designed and build at a time that Alstom already had bought FIAT Ferrovia. (Tecnomasia has been part of ABB/ADTranz/Bombardier since 1988...)
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Old October 1st, 2013, 04:56 PM   #196
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Even though I have no love for AB, the NSB Class 72 does spring to mind as a project they properly fixed.
Note however how NSB went to Stadler when it needed more trains...
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Old October 1st, 2013, 05:43 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
You are correct about the first generation of ETR500 trains, but wrong about the second generation.
The train in your picture is one of those second generation trainsets, and it is technically a completely different train as the first generation. The first generation was DC only, the second generation is AC/DC, as it must be to be able to run on the new high speed lines.
These trains were designed and build at a time that Alstom already had bought FIAT Ferrovia. (Tecnomasia has been part of ABB/ADTranz/Bombardier since 1988...)
my friend U wrong too...I explain Etr500 trainset is remained the same built up in mid 90' so that's mean that the coaches you see are the same so there is only one generation for them..the second generation you guys talk are only the locomotives built up during the first years of 2000

Last edited by terminal; October 1st, 2013 at 05:51 PM.
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Old October 1st, 2013, 06:42 PM   #198
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my friend U wrong too...I explain Etr500 trainset is remained the same built up in mid 90' so that's mean that the coaches you see are the same so there is only one generation for them..the second generation you guys talk are only the locomotives built up during the first years of 2000
My point was that AnsaldoBreda did NOT singlehandedly build those trains, and that point still stands.

You just focus on some technicalities about certain companies that were still operating under different names back then, but that does not invalidate my argument that AnsaldoBreda (or Ansaldo and Breda) was not solely responsible for the supposed success of that train.

What is it with the AnsaldoBreda fanboys who keep defending crappy products/producers out of some misplaced sense of nationalism?
I like Sony, but if they make a crappy product I'll say "Hey, that's a crappy product".
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Old October 1st, 2013, 10:11 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
My point was that AnsaldoBreda did NOT singlehandedly build those trains, and that point still stands.

You just focus on some technicalities about certain companies that were still operating under different names back then, but that does not invalidate my argument that AnsaldoBreda (or Ansaldo and Breda) was not solely responsible for the supposed success of that train.

What is it with the AnsaldoBreda fanboys who keep defending crappy products/producers out of some misplaced sense of nationalism?
I like Sony, but if they make a crappy product I'll say "Hey, that's a crappy product".
^
Silly Walks absolutely ..I never written that Etr500 was built up by AB only ...the issue on this 3d rounded about highspeed trains in Netherland even if the title is "AnsaldoBreda" so I only written that in Italy the only highspeed train we have from AB is Etr 500 generally speaking....but of course it was made up by a Consortium of only Italian producers as I explaned. I don't want defend any producers in particular considering they don't pay me nothing so guess it is quite pointless to make a free advertise for me... So guess it is same pointless to say that Bombardier is better or Alstom too because also these too have realized trains with many problems.
I'm sorry if U in Netherland have taken a rip-off from Ansaldo Breda....but it doesn't happen here in Italy with our highspeed train Etr 500 that is quite reliable and aesthetically defenitely better and elegant compared to many others.
Ansaldo and Breda have done the history of high speed trains in Europe since the first half of last century with these trains here some example:
The first generation of Pendolino (Etr400) built up by Ansaldo at the beginning of 70'
[IMG]http://i41.************/2wm2yxj.jpg[/IMG]

and from Breda with the Etr200 ( 1930 end) and Settebello Etr300 (1960)

[IMG]http://i39.************/2a5dtmr.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i44.************/2z53n2a.jpg[/IMG]

so considering that these two companies built up trains from more then a century I find quite hard read that their products are crappy.

I agree with you that Fyra train is a very crappy product not only for what regard technical parts...but aesthetically is probably horrible.. actually the antithesis of the beauty that's it. It would be impossible to see train like this circulating on italian railways and after the gallery I show you about the past, the present and future of some italian high speed trains it is quite easy understand why ...
I really don't understand ..because of all this questions with the Fyra but I believe that probably that train is birth wrong and for sure depends by manufacurer AB but also from who have ordered this train and have done the specifications to built up this: Netherlands railways....no way

Last edited by terminal; October 5th, 2013 at 01:37 PM.
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Old October 3rd, 2013, 12:32 PM   #200
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