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Old December 29th, 2013, 10:54 PM   #221
AlexNL
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I think that NS will be forced to pay for the trains they already accepted from AnsaldoBreda, but I don't think we will ever see the V250 trains re-enter service. In the half-year results for the first half of 2013 NS embedded a major loss for the V250 trains, i.e. in their own bookkeeping the trains are already fully depreciated.

Should AnsaldoBreda win the legal battle, then I expect NS to have the trains scrapped on a short notice. The trains are useless to NS: they can't be used for Dutch-Belgian services (no safety certificate) and they can't be used on domestic services either because SNCB and NS publicly said the trains are be unsuitable and, worse of all, unsafe.
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Old December 30th, 2013, 10:16 AM   #222
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I was wondering... maybe NS and SNCB could solve their grievances with AnsaldoBreda by exchanging the V250 order for a smaller quantity of ETR1000 trains...

It would be nice to see ETR1000s running over HSL-4/Zuid.
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Old December 30th, 2013, 10:26 AM   #223
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They should ask Bombardier then...
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Old December 30th, 2013, 10:30 AM   #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
They should ask Bombardier then...
ETR1000 is a joint project between AnsaldoBreda and Bombardier.
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Old December 30th, 2013, 10:41 AM   #225
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It is mainly (if not only) a Bombardier project, even if built also by AnsaldoBreda, so I doubt AB could build and sell this kind of trains alone.
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Old December 30th, 2013, 11:43 PM   #226
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And I'm not too sure if Trenitalia would agree (as the Frecciarossa 1000 is built for them), nor any of the competition offices. All that aside, I would love to see a ETR 1000 on HSL-Zuid.
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Old December 31st, 2013, 12:08 AM   #227
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And even if AB could technically build a Zefiro alone, I suppose Bombardier still has patents on the blueprints...
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Old January 4th, 2014, 01:17 AM   #228
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I still can't understand why NS hadn't chosen the Pendolino or something like the CAF built for the Turkish Railways.
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Old January 4th, 2014, 02:15 AM   #229
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The excuse every time is that they chose the only valid offer left... but when only AB was left, they should have realized they "better go back to the drawing board". By the time they would have looked at how to proceed, trains like the (non-tilting) New Pendolino, etc. would have been on the market, providing much better, reliable alternatives than AB.

But no no, in their rush and need for a cheap solution, they chose the worst of all options, and we see what that brings: still no 250 km/h service, money down the drain, still more money needing to be spent for a weak 160 km/h service, and maybe, MAYBE 200 km/h service somewhere down the line, after even more money spent.

They should just give Amsterdam-Brussels to Arriva and let them run the service with New Pendolino's.
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Old January 4th, 2014, 02:56 AM   #230
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After the V250 collapse, Alstom offered the Pendolino to NS: "We're building Pendolino's for PKP, so if you want we can build some for the Netherlands as well". NS refused the offer as they deemed it "unappropriate at this time".

When AnsaldoBreda was the only remaining party interested to build the trains, time had already progressed to somewhere around 2003. At that time the infrastructure was still on schedule and the estimated date on which the infrastructure would be ready was still the same: April 1st, 2007. The Dutch government pressured HSA: trains or no trains, the concession would start when the infrastructure is ready which would also mean that HSA would have to pay the high concession fee.

Re-tendering the rolling stock would mean years of delay while AnsaldoBreda promised they could deliver the rolling stock on time. HSA was faced with a difficult decision: either trust an unexperienced manufacturer, or pay boatloads of money (€ 148 millions/year) without the income to back it.

Looking back at all of this, more than 10 years later, is easy: the decision made by HSA was the wrong one and everyone has to pay a hefty price. NS lost millions of euros to acquire rolling stock and now in court cases, the government still does not have the envisioned high speed services and the passenger is screwed over most of all: in a few years they will get a train which is slower than the train as it ran before.
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Old January 4th, 2014, 09:40 AM   #231
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What a mess!

Sincerely, as an Italian, I feel really ashamed, but I can see that also the NS had contributed to create this situation.

I also think that the New Pendolino will be the best choice for the NS. Maybe, after huge compensation from AnsaldoBreda (i.e. selling Ansaldo STS by Finmeccanica to GE and/or taking money form the pockets of italian taxpayers with some "special purpose tax") they will redo the tender in a better way, so more competitors will participate.

However, seeing the photo of the tagged V250 in the previous pages (I still can't believe that such an ugly train was designed by Pininfarina), the Pendolino has the fault of being "Made in Italy" too...
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Old January 6th, 2014, 03:37 PM   #232
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Quote:
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They should just give Amsterdam-Brussels to Arriva and let them run the service with New Pendolino's.
What is to stop an open access operator coming along and doing this properly?

Maybe NTV should get some more AGVs and launch a proper 300 km/h service. Then the Italians can run it with French trains


I can't understand why on earth they think mixing 160 km/h services with 300 km/h Thalyses on an expensive high speed line is in any way sensible or acceptable.


Heck we've even seen in another thread that original TGVs are being scrapped. It must be cheaper for them to get those and renovate the traction package.
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Old January 6th, 2014, 07:42 PM   #233
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According to Arriva it will be nearly impossible to run an open access service on the HSL under the current access conditions. Basically it comes down to having to negotiate a deal with HSA (NS) to run an open access service, but by doing so Arriva would actually help HSA (NS) to pay for their concession!
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Old January 7th, 2014, 01:04 AM   #234
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Excuse me, but what's the maximum speed allowed on this line?
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Old January 7th, 2014, 01:18 AM   #235
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HSL-Zuid is built for 300 kph.
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Old January 7th, 2014, 08:45 AM   #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
According to Arriva it will be nearly impossible to run an open access service on the HSL under the current access conditions. Basically it comes down to having to negotiate a deal with HSA (NS) to run an open access service, but by doing so Arriva would actually help HSA (NS) to pay for their concession!
Everything about HSL-Zuid from the building of the infrastructure, tendering the concession and the acquisition of rolling stock is questionable. This calls for a thorough investigation by the EU, alongside the dutch parliamentary inquiry that is already going to be conducted. Unfortunately these will take a lot of time to conduct and will very likely be eventually ignored, but at least we will know what happened.
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Old January 7th, 2014, 09:23 AM   #237
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What was wrong with the infrastructure building?
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Old January 7th, 2014, 10:05 AM   #238
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Questionable choices were made by the government that drove up the price of the infrastructure. For example, the Groene Hart-tunnel which cost a billion to build.

Then there's the case of the noise barriers: when the infrastructure was nearly completed it turned out that the barriers that were placed along the track in Brabant were of an inferior quality. The contractor refused to replace them, insisting that the government would pay for this. The government did end up paying, but went to the court of appeal at the same time.
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Old January 7th, 2014, 10:53 AM   #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 33Hz View Post
Maybe NTV should get some more AGVs and launch a proper 300 km/h service. Then the Italians can run it with French trains
They would have to be able to run under 1800 V DC though...

Quote:
I can't understand why on earth they think mixing 160 km/h services with 300 km/h Thalyses on an expensive high speed line is in any way sensible or acceptable.
Running only a hdnfull of Thalyses on this expensive line makes even less sense. The line is there, So better use it.

Quote:
Heck we've even seen in another thread that original TGVs are being scrapped. It must be cheaper for them to get those and renovate the traction package.
You'd need more than a renovation of the traciton package. Building a train that can handle two DC voltages is possible, but this must be taking in to acount at the start of the design. Adding a second DC voltage afterwards is not trivial.
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Old January 7th, 2014, 11:54 AM   #240
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Some follow-up on Honolulu situation.

There are some technical advisers to Honolulu Rail recommending it to "ditch AnsaldoBreda while you can", as it is rumored in Oahu. Some people quite didn't like the selection of trains from AnsaldoBreda for it being a company embroiled in some problems with light rail products in other cities.

The original intention, as we know, was to run 2-car trains on 150 sec. daytime interval. At a later stage in the project, cars would be coupled to from 3-car or 4-car trainsets. Problem is that AnsaldoBreda came up with a train that would require extensive work for being reconfigured, not the smooth easy shuffling the operator expected. However, AnsaldoBreda claims to have fulfilled the requirements of the contract and says the expectation of easy reconfiguration of cars was unrealistic from start.

Shall we remember Honolulu rail will be a UTO (unmanned train operation) system, with limited workforce expense so to allow, from start, high frequencies to the line, avoiding the usual pitfall of new urban rail services - intervals are too long, reducing attractiveness of the system.

A decision has been made to operate all trainsets on their final intended length of 4-cars from start. This means daytime interval is halved to 300 seconds (it is designed so that it will be later decreased as the system expanded up to a final daytime interval of 4-car sets running every 105 seconds).

Now they are estimating the initial ridership will be 9% lower due to reduced frequency/increased interval.

Heavy construction is going full-on meanwhile.
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