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Old January 7th, 2014, 01:22 PM   #241
M-NL
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What was wrong with the infrastructure building?
In addition to AlexNL: Also the decision on which train control system(s) to install was severely delayed by the ministry of transport.
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Old January 7th, 2014, 01:33 PM   #242
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However, AnsaldoBreda claims to have fulfilled the requirements of the contract and ...
Where have we seen that before...
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Old January 7th, 2014, 01:37 PM   #243
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Where have we seen that before...
They must have a good legal team with engineering knowledge.
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Old January 7th, 2014, 07:53 PM   #244
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In addition to AlexNL: Also the decision on which train control system(s) to install was severely delayed by the ministry of transport.
I can understand the reasoning behind the decision to go for ETCS: ATB-EG (as used on the mainlines) was unsuitable as it can't work with 25 kV AC and is not designed for 300 kph. ATB-NG can work with 25 kV AC but is also not designed for 300 kph.

The Dutch could've opted for a properietary system (such as TVM-430 or LZB) but this would mean introducing a brand new system (which includes technology and knowledge transfer) which will not be used elsewhere on the system, while at the time ETCS was in development and supposed to replace the national and often proprietary safety systems. As we all know this turned out to be too optimistic: the safety system was not adequate and Infraspeed charged the government extra ("Oh, so you want 2.3.0 now and not 2.2.2? Here's our offer"), but it has been a valuable lesson for Europe wide ETCS development and the system is working properly now.

Regarding the AnsaldoHonolulu case: if AB has once again agreed to things they can't deliver, they should give up the contract.
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Old January 8th, 2014, 08:34 AM   #245
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The choice for ERTMSwas basically the only way to go, but yet again a case of inadequate tendering. If the tender would have specified 'Must be delivered with the ERTMS version in effect at the time of delivery', there would not have been any discussion at all.
Despite not having been specified in the tender, the track is currently also equipped with a L1 fall-back option. However switching between levels is only possible when the track is completely empty. Because at the time of decision L2 was still in development, they should have specified a seamless L1 option.

Back to the AB V250: the ETCS onboard computer has several flaws (which were also present in Thalys), causing problems with poor GSM-R reception and border crossing. Some of them were corrected in Thalys, but never implemented for V250. Some issues were never solved, but the Thalys work around (a cold reboot if I remember correct) isn't an option for V250.
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Old January 8th, 2014, 10:24 AM   #246
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There is a bug in the V250 and Thalys EVCs which can possibly ground a train when the manned cab changes, rebooting the system mitigates the problem. With Thalys this has never been an issue as the system is always rebooted when the cab is changed, this is how a Thalys 'works'. This does not happen with a V250, thus causing issues.

What kind of baffles me is how this got through: more than 3 years were spent on testing the trains. How can it be that they missed this either during testing or when writing the operational manuals?
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Old January 8th, 2014, 11:07 AM   #247
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Does anyone have a detailed report on the status of all trains, meaning: which train sets are parked in Watergrasf, which are fully assembled in Pistoia and theoretically ready to go and which are incomplete on AB assembling facility?
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Old January 8th, 2014, 08:55 PM   #248
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As far as I know, nearly all trains are in Amsterdam. Only 1 or maybe 2 are in Pistoia, but I don't know which ones.

In passenger service I have seen these sets: 4804, 4805, 4806, 4808, 4811.
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Old January 8th, 2014, 10:18 PM   #249
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4806 is the prototype (curiously, it wasn't numbered "1" as it usually happens). Are NMBS's sets in Amsterdam, too? (sets 4681 to 83, IIRC)
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Old January 8th, 2014, 10:47 PM   #250
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The current 4806 is not the 4806 which first came to the Netherlands a few years ago for testing. Most V250 train sets have been renumbered at least once for some obscure reasons. One time AnsaldoBreda sent a V250 to Amsterdam which carried a rather curious number: 4532. Not only is this number completely out of the range, it was also already issued to a Thalys train...

4881 should be in Amsterdam, I'm not sure about 4882 and -83 but I expect those to be in A'dam too.
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Old February 4th, 2014, 02:38 PM   #251
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Actually the 4805 was the ONLY decent V250 train. I have never had anny issues with that set. 4811 on the other hand....
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Old February 4th, 2014, 09:40 PM   #252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
The current 4806 is not the 4806 which first came to the Netherlands a few years ago for testing. Most V250 train sets have been renumbered at least once for some obscure reasons. One time AnsaldoBreda sent a V250 to Amsterdam which carried a rather curious number: 4532. Not only is this number completely out of the range, it was also already issued to a Thalys train...

4881 should be in Amsterdam, I'm not sure about 4882 and -83 but I expect those to be in A'dam too.
I´m totally lost for words with AnsaldoBreda...
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Old February 4th, 2014, 11:58 PM   #253
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Actually the 4805 was the ONLY decent V250 train. I have never had anny issues with that set. 4811 on the other hand....
I really find it fascinating that AnsaldoBreda managed to achieve such great differences in trainsets that should be identical.

It's not the first time though, they pulled the same trick when delivering the first batch of 14 IC4 trains to the Danes.
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Old February 5th, 2014, 11:15 AM   #254
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there's an ETR1000 parked in the facility in Pistoia.
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Old February 11th, 2014, 03:16 PM   #255
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According to the Dutch media site NOS, Finmeccanica wants to get rid of AnsaldoBreda as soon as possible. The current situation of AB is a threat to the entire Finmeccanica group, according to its CEO.
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Old February 11th, 2014, 04:11 PM   #256
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It was rumored the plan of the Italians would be to organize some structured sale where current contracts and production facilities are sold (likely to Bombardier, but who knows), whereas liability for problematic projects is left on a shell company with little assets.
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Old February 11th, 2014, 04:22 PM   #257
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Which basically comes down to the Dutch, the Danes and the Swedes left with their faulty trains and trams.
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Old February 11th, 2014, 05:53 PM   #258
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Quote:
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Which basically comes down to the Dutch, the Danes and the Swedes left with their faulty trains and trams.
There is the issue with Honolulu trains... so far, the order is up but some people back there in USA want the contract transferred to other manufacturer as they are wary of the hiccups with order fulfillment of AB.
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Old March 5th, 2014, 07:07 AM   #259
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Chinese buyer for rail unit?

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Feb 28 (Reuters) - China CNR Corporation and Insigma have expressed interest in buying Finmeccanica's rail unit Ansaldo STS and loss-making train maker Ansaldo Breda, the Chinese firms said on Friday.

The state-owned Italian group put its rail and other non-core assets up for sale more than two years ago to cut debt and focus on its aerospace and defence businesses.

It has struggled to carry out the plan due to political opposition to foreign takeovers.

In an emailed statement, which gave no financial details, Shanghai-listed CNR and Insigma said they aimed to invest and relaunch the Finmeccanica units, keeping job levels and manufacturing operations in Italy.

They added they did not rule out joining forces with an Italian partner in the possible acquisition.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...0LX3KY20140228
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Old March 5th, 2014, 08:37 AM   #260
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I think that Chinese trains (is a Toyota built in France a Japanese or a French car?) are a bridge to far for the conservative European rail industry at this moment, regardless how good the quality of the end product actually is.

I also wonder how their competitors will react to their copying behaviour (Despite all great industrial nations except for England having started out that way!).

Anyway it would mean Ansaldo Breda would become an assembly plant for a mix of European and Chinese parts. Given the good first impression of the ETR1000 that may not be a bad thing.
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