Russian warships enter Syrian waters to prevent NATO attack: report

[Aaronj09]

Uh, no, I don't think so.

[Koen Acacia]

Originally Posted by desertswo

You know, all joking aside, the Battle of Balaclava provided grist for the mill in another important battle some 90 years to the day later. The action that led to the Battle Off Samar at Leyte Gulf, the iconic engagement in which a bunch of thin skinned US Navy escort carriers, destroyers and destroyer escorts took on a Japanese task unit led by four battleships including Yamato, as well as six heavy cruisers and four light cruisers. It was a totally one-sided affair tactically speaking, but the US Navy’s samurai-like willingness to sacrifice themselves unnerved Admiral Kurita, and he turned his unit around and departed the scene, giving the US a strategic victory.

The thing is though, that it should never have happened the way it did, because Admiral William F. Halsey took the Japanese bait and went after a decoy fleet that included aircraft carriers with no airplanes. He pulled his fast carrier groups which included all of the Iowa-class battleships and Essex-class carriers away from the amphibious beachhead and flew headlong after the decoys, leaving the assault shipping, as well as those little escort carriers and their escorts unprotected. He was supposed to have released the fast battleships, designated Task Force 34, to stay behind and patrol the area around the amphibious beachhead but never did.

In an interesting technical quirk having to do with high frequency radio transmissions and their ability to skip off of the atmosphere and the Earth’s surface, Admiral Nimitz back in Pearl Harbor could hear every word of the frantic radio transmissions coming from “Taffy 3” (the code name for the escort carrier task unit), screaming for help as Yamato and her sisters were bearing down on them. So Nimitz, who never interfered with the commanders on scene sent a very famous, some would say “infamous” message asking for the whereabouts of Task Force 34. The message read, “Turkey trots to water (Break) Where is; repeat where is Task Force 34? (Break) The world wonders.” “Turkey trots to water” was obviously “padding”; nonsensical phrases added to the beginning and end of messages to help confuse enemy cryptanalysts. So was “The world wonders.” However, padding though it was, it was added by a smart ass Ensign who fancied himself an historian, and knowing that October 25, the day of the Battle Off Samar, was also the 90th anniversary of Balaclava, he thought he’d add a bit of a flourish by paraphrasing Lord Tennyson. Problem was that the guys on the receiving end couldn’t tell for sure if it was padding, and it, coupled with the obviously uncharacteristic “meddling” on the part of Nimitz, was interpreted by Halsey as a slap in the face, and a rebuke of his actions. When Nimitz found out about it, he flame sprayed the young Ensign and sent him to count Penguins in New Zealand or whatever, but the damage was done, and Halsey never forgave Nimitz. It was the end of a friendship of forty years duration.

How do you *know* all that stuff?

[desertswo]

Originally Posted by Koen Acacia

How do you *know* all that stuff?

LOL!! Yeah, I do get that sort of reaction sometimes to one of my “core data dumps” from people who haven't spent much time "around" me. In any event, in addition to having spent 25 of my 55 years on this rock as a commissioned officer in the US Navy, unlike the young Ensign who played such a unique role in the Battle Off Samar, or the 90th anniversary of the Battle of Balaclava, whichever one prefers; I am in fact, a military historian.

These past ten years, starting even before I retired from my military career, I’ve been employed as an adjunct professor at a university that shall remain nameless for the time being. I’ve taught several different courses in the field of business and organizational security based on my own experience in “force protection,” leadership and management, physical security, and safeguarding of sensitive materials and weapons systems; in my case, those weapons I could neither confirm nor deny the presence of aboard my ship.

Shortly after 9/11, I was introduced to a gentleman who had recently retired as a CIA field officer, with a good deal of experience in the counter-terror/counter-insurgency field; particularly in Latin America, which also happens to be an interest of mine. We got together and pooled our experiential resources and wrote an elective course for the Masters degree program in the business and organizational security field to be taught online by the two of us. This combination has served us and the university well for the past ten years, and through word of mouth, it has grown in interesting ways; such that most of our students now are active duty military personnel (and not all American), Fortune 500 corporate security directors, or law enforcement personnel from major US metropolitan police forces. We’ve even had a couple from the FBI-New York Police Department Joint Terrorism Task Force (FBI-NYPD JTTF), as well as a couple of police officers from Europe. We still get the odd duck who just wants to improve her resume for the bank that employs her, but as time goes on, we see fewer and fewer of those.

As I said, the course has evolved, and my teaching partner and I are very happy and excited to be adding a third professional to our group; a 30-year veteran of one of those major metropolitan police departments that were previously mentioned who just happens to have a Ph.D. in Criminal Justice is joining our team and will be contributing to the latest re-write with his “cop on the beat” perspective amongst other things, as well as teaching one section. Our annual student throughput will rise to 240. The course has proven so popular that the School of International Relations took a look at what we were doing and blessed it as an elective in their Masters program leading to a MA in International Relations. So now we are seeing a lot of aspiring State Department types, as well as a lot more foreign students. It makes for interesting conversations when you have well-meaning and earnest young people from some place other than the US state their opinions of US foreign policy vis-à-vis various topics, come up against hardened combat veterans or very experienced, albeit cynical police detectives. We get some real fireworks that we instructors have to work very hard to keep in check. Also, because this is online, my students can be, and often are, anywhere in the world. For example, having a US Infantry Captain lead a sweep of Tikrit in Iraq for members of al-Qaeda in the morning and then check in with us in the evening is far from unusual. It really is pretty amazing.

Regardless, that’s just a part-time gig (although it doesn’t feel like it at times). My full-time job is as Chief Operating Officer (COO) of a small company that installs environmental and security system monitoring and control systems for major industrial applications. There I take full advantage of both my on the job training as a marine engineer, and my experience in the security field.

Last but not least, I used to teach the History of the Americas in the International Baccalaureate (IB) Programme. I don’t know how much you know about IB but there are some 210 schools in the UK that follow the IB Diploma Programme which leads to the completion of the first year at university whilst still at a lower school (what we in the States would call “high school”). All the schools worldwide that participate in the IB Diploma programme teach virtually the same curriculum. There are 744 such schools in the US; 141 in Canada; 57 in Mexico; 11 in France; 48 in Argentina; 14 in Brazil; 32 in Poland; 50 in China; 13 in Russia and so on. The programme was founded in Geneva in 1968, basically by a bunch of professional diplomats who were concerned that their own children would fall behind their peers if one or both parents were posted to foreign countries where the educational institutions may, or may not, be on par with what one would find in Europe or North America; so they basically designed the curriculum on a napkin, and the rest, as they say, is history. I taught in the programme for a couple of years after I retired from the Navy, but a) they didn’t pay me that well, and b) I got real tired, real fast of some 16-year old punks telling me to go fuck myself; a not uncommon situation here in the States. I really feared the possibility of me losing control and kicking the shit out of the little bastards, so I stepped away from full-time teaching at that level. I much prefer being adjunct faculty on the university level.

Anyway, I “know” all that stuff, because at the US Naval War College, where I graduated with distinction earning a MA in National Security and Strategic Studies (I also have a MS in Computer Science), my seminar and I tore the Leyte Gulf campaign and its various sub-sets, including the Battle Off Samar, down to its bare bones, and analyzed every piece of pertinent data. The so called, “Battle of Bull’s Run,” as Halsey’s mad dash after a basically harmless Japanese carrier battle group in search of the mythical Mahanian sea battle for all the marbles, whilst leaving the beach head undefended (along with sailing 3rd Fleet into not one, but two deadly typhoons) has been seen as a stain on the great man’s career, and one of the reasons he was not accorded a fifth star although every other Admiral or General Officer of similar responsibility and experience were so recognized, and so there is a good deal of information from, and about, the various players involved. Admiral Nimitz doesn’t get away totally clean either. In addition to this poorly timed message poking Admiral Halsey in the eye as it were, his staff wrote some pretty ambiguous operations orders that gave Halsey the leeway (some would say “the rope with which to hang himself”) to go charging off as some sort of modern day knight errant in search of a meaningless dragon to slay.

In any event, I know a fair bit about WWII and the War in the Pacific in particular, but in general, I have paid my dues and spent my time “between the stacks” in libraries, up to and including the Library of Congress, researching various events for one project or another.

[LondonFox]

Originally Posted by void0

Next after UK

Russia couldn't conquer the UK.

[Hudson11]

well, i'm guessing they're not there anymore

US Carrier USS George HW Bush off the coast of Syria

http://dailycaller.com/2011/11/23/re...ensions-flare/

[Koen Acacia]

Desertswo: thanks a lot for the explanation. I mostly figured you as "ex-US Navy captain, ex-Washington planner", so the very academic levels of that particular story gave me a bit of a WTF moment. Good read btw.

Originally Posted by Hudson11

well, i'm guessing they're not there anymore

US Carrier USS George HW Bush off the coast of Syria

http://dailycaller.com/2011/11/23/re...ensions-flare/

Yeah, and that one's going to get pretty interesting pretty fast.
The EU's embargoes hurting Syria pretty badly, armed opposition to Assad getting organised, the Arab League throwing Syria out and demanding that he stops the violence, the Turks getting involved, a US carrier getting involved, and the French now calling for humanitarian interference.

Any money on Asad's chances?

[RobitTV]

West and Russian relations get worse - Russia moves in missile attack warning

The US-Russia standoff with regard to the US defense shield program and the possible strike in Syria worsened after the Russian president Dmitry Medvedev publicly sated that he has put the missile attack early warning system in combat mode.
Russia and China had earlier indicated that they will not tolerate any strikes in Syria by the Western world. Especially after the situation in Egypt and Libya.

Article

[Aaronj09]

I saw a similar article on CNN about the exact same thing. It is unrelated to Syria and is about NATO defence system in Europe which is apparently a threat to Russia or some bollocks.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/11/23...eld/?hpt=hp_t3

There is still time to reach an understanding,” Medvedev said. “Russia has the political will to reach the agreements needed in this area, agreements that would open a new chapter in our relations with the USA and NATO

SO it isn't all out war... YET!

[LondonFox]

Russia huffing and puffing as usual... don't they know that we don't rate them as a threat any more?

[Splish]

So you've completely discounted Russia posing any kind of threat? Why?

[LondonFox]

Originally Posted by Splish

So you've completely discounted Russia posing any kind of threat? Why?

What are they going to do exactly? ... attack Europe if they don't get their own way? .. no, their future is intertwined with the continent now whether they like it or not. This isn't the cold war anymore, Europe has a larger voice.

Russia may be a big country, but its economy isn't as big as its land mass... Germany, France and the United Kingdom all have economies bigger than Russia, despite the recession.

They have nukes I suppose, but that doesn't give their voice any more clout as so do the UK and France...

So that leaves them with natural resources... which, granted they supply a lot of gas and oil to mainland Europe... but the UK doesn't import anything really from Russia, most of our stuff is our own resources or from the US/Canada/Gulf states... all stable friendly allies.

And if they think they can roll all of their tanks and troops across the North Sea or the English Channel, then good luck to them.

[Isaac Newell]

Is it a galley?

[levaniX]

Oh, god, it's just Medvedev's PR before the elections, dont take it seriously.
So, antiamericanism grows here before the elections.
After March, Antiamericanism will suddenly disappear from public speeches.

[RM6721]

What are they going to do exactly? ... attack Europe if they don't get their own way? .. no, their future is intertwined with the continent now whether they like it or not. This isn't the cold war anymore, Europe has a larger voice.

Russia may be a big country, but its economy isn't as big as its land mass... Germany, France and the United Kingdom all have economies bigger than Russia, despite the recession.

They have nukes I suppose, but that doesn't give their voice any more clout as so do the UK and France...

So that leaves them with natural resources... which, granted they supply a lot of gas and oil to mainland Europe... but the UK doesn't import anything really from Russia, most of our stuff is our own resources or from the US/Canada/Gulf states... all stable friendly allies.

And if they think they can roll all of their tanks and troops across the North Sea or the English Channel, then good luck to them.

They pump themselves up to thinking their so much more powerful than they are, just because of what the look like on the map. They're population is, at 140 million, only a bit larger than Japan, and declining rapidly. Their GDP per capita is about half of what it is in the UK. It's effectively a Mafia state, there are massive problems with corruption. Did I mention there's 500,000 alcohol related deaths a year? Yet watching RT you'd think they're an emerging power on par with China or Brazil. They're not.

They do have alot of nukes though..............

[void0]

Why someone cares about Russian ships in Libya?
Especially, as sad, population "declining rapidly" and "500,000 alcohol related deaths a year"

[Flamming_Python]

Originally Posted by RM6721

They pump themselves up to thinking their so much more powerful than they are, just because of what the look like on the map. They're population is, at 140 million, only a bit larger than Japan, and declining rapidly. Their GDP per capita is about half of what it is in the UK. It's effectively a Mafia state, there are massive problems with corruption. Did I mention there's 500,000 alcohol related deaths a year? Yet watching RT you'd think they're an emerging power on par with China or Brazil. They're not.

They do have alot of nukes though..............

Just because the British Empire collapsed into pieces doesn't mean you have to take your insecurities out on Russia.

It's an enormously influential country, with large amounts of liquidity at the moment and a growing population. Military both conventional and strategic nuclear is the 2nd most powerful in the world. Problems with corruption exist but no more so than China, India, other ex-Soviet countries. Your whole post is just one exageration or false fact after another.

GDP per capita at half that of the UK would actually put Russia miles ahead of most of the rest of the world including all of Eastern Europe, etc... in actual fact it's lower and is about half that of the US I believe. Still, living standards as a whole are rapidly catching up to Western European ones. As a middle-class person in St. Petersburg, Moscow or a couple of others with an income of +1000 EUR per month, you can pretty much live like in any Western European city - products here are generally cheaper, transport in St. Petersburg where I live is maybe 1/8th the cost of that in London, electricity, gas, water, property rental - all cheaper. Corruption is increasingly less encountered in everyday situations like bribing a policeman, beaurocrat, etc... although it's just as prevelent in big businesses, government and city contacts, etc...

Life here is pretty good - especially for my proffesion (programmer), there is an increasing deficit of such specialists in St. Petersburg and there are a lot of companies hiring young talent here right now, salaries are rapidly rising; can easily make +2000 EUR a month after a year or so of experiance working.

[Aaronj09]

If Russia had no nukes, then nobody would take any notice of it. Same for North Korea.

Same could be said for any country though.

[desertswo]

Originally Posted by Aaronj09

If Russia had no nukes, then nobody would take any notice of it.

Uh, no. Russia is possessed of a wealth of natural resources, culture and intellectual prowess that requires others to sit up and take notice. They gave us Tchaikowsky, Borodin, Prokofiev, and Rachmaninoff; Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, Pasternak and my personal favorite, Solzhenitsyn. I could go on, but there are just too many contributions to world culture to mention. Like any other country, it has its share of brilliant people, and others who aren't. We all have our crosses to bear in that regard.

One needs to understand that even on their best days, representative democracies are messy; they are even messier when a nation has, for the past 20-odd years, been emerging out of the shadows of 70-plus years of varying degrees of Marxism-Leninism, and centrally controlled command economies; during 26 of which the nation was run by a totalitarian cult of personality that revolved around a man whom most mental health professionals have identified as a certifiable paranoid personality in forensic evaluations of his historical actions.

Here's some numbers to try and get your head around; in the nine years between the start of WWI and the conclusion of the Russian Civil War, roughly 30 million died. No one knows for sure how many citizens of the Soviet Union died in the famine Stalin engineered through collectivizing agriculture, in part to punish the Kulaks of the Ukraine, or the Great Purge of the 1930s during which countless numbers perished in the Gulag, or were simply shot in the back of the head in the basement of the Lubyanka, or put in front of firing squads in the hinterlands, but it was probably in vicinity of seven million.

Regardless, throw in the great catastrophe of the European portion of WWII that was fought primarily in the Soviet Union, and another 34-odd million are lost to their loved ones. My mentor Sergei Khrushchev has many a horror story to tell in that regard. In any event, factor all those lives lost together, and the Soviet Union lost somewhere in the vicinity of 70 million people to other than natural causes during the course of the 20th Century. Looked at another way, if the same number of dead was applied to the British Isles today, both Great Britain and Ireland would be vacant, and New York City would be empty as well.

As an historian, I've always found it interesting that all the world knows how many Hitler and his SS henchmen killed during the Holocaust. Yet it is generally accepted that while Stalin killed more among the citizens of the Soviet Union, no one really knows how many. Why? Because the Nazis kept very good records of their actions, both in writing and on film; so proud were they of their accomplishments. The Soviets didn't; and because of that fact, Stalin often gets a pass in the West for his actions.

You know what though? I don't blame the citizens of the Russian Empire or Soviet Union for the situation in which they found themselves at that time. They never had a chance, as they were held more or less in bondage to an aristocracy that knew little about what happened beyond their garden walls, and then left that form of bondage only to be thrust into one of the great logical progressions from Western thought; the Socialist State a la Marx as interpreted by Lenin, without ever passing through the Capitalist State (in true Western terms) that is supposed to precede it. The end result is some 1000 years of suffering on the part of a people who, much like the rest of us, just want to be left alone to live their lives by their own lights.

No, I believe Flaming_Python did a very elegant job of describing how far the Russian Federation has come in just 20 years. It takes a couple of generations for old ideas to die out, and it seems that is happening in Russia. My own personal preference as an old Cold Warrior would be for apparatchiki like Vladimir Putin to permanently sail off into the sunset, but that is for the Russian people to decide; not me, or anyone else outside the borders of the Rodina.

[RM6721]

Originally Posted by Flamming_Python

Just because the British Empire collapsed into pieces doesn't mean you have to take your insecurities out on Russia.

It's an enormously influential country, with large amounts of liquidity at the moment and a growing population. Military both conventional and strategic nuclear is the 2nd most powerful in the world. Problems with corruption exist but no more so than China, India, other ex-Soviet countries. Your whole post is just one exageration or false fact after another.

GDP per capita at half that of the UK would actually put Russia miles ahead of most of the rest of the world including all of Eastern Europe, etc... in actual fact it's lower and is about half that of the US I believe. Still, living standards as a whole are rapidly catching up to Western European ones. As a middle-class person in St. Petersburg, Moscow or a couple of others with an income of +1000 EUR per month, you can pretty much live like in any Western European city - products here are generally cheaper, transport in St. Petersburg where I live is maybe 1/8th the cost of that in London, electricity, gas, water, property rental - all cheaper. Corruption is increasingly less encountered in everyday situations like bribing a policeman, beaurocrat, etc... although it's just as prevelent in big businesses, government and city contacts, etc...

Life here is pretty good - especially for my proffesion (programmer), there is an increasing deficit of such specialists in St. Petersburg and there are a lot of companies hiring young talent here right now, salaries are rapidly rising; can easily make +2000 EUR a month after a year or so of experiance working.

I'm against imperialism and believe the British Empire was a terrible thing, as do most Britons, I think you'll find.

2000 Euro a month! Wow!

[Aaronj09]

I'll say one thing, if Russia had no nukes, then I honestly wouldn't fear every time they say 'we will cause a war over this or that'.

A normal conflict on ground does not scare me one bit, but a nuclear war terrifies me.