Seattle Subway!

[CityView Jim]

Originally Posted by Doomgoggles

That's kind of the point of the express route. It will be cheaper than a busy line to build because there would be fewer stations per mile. Georgetown and Boeing Field/Museum of Flight, depending which side it goes down. These would be destination stations, not multi-mode or nodal stations. Maybe it could even be (gasp) faster than 55mph. I've been dreaming of an airport express since before Central Link botched the Rainier Valley.

I'll be honest, I don't know that an express to go 16 miles is really worth it. You're saving 30 minutes at most. Now if it were 30 miles or further, there may be some merit. Just saying. . .

[mhays]

The current route is 35 minutes or so. With a few stops on the new route, you might save what, 10 minutes?

[UrbanBen]

Whoa there. An individual saving 10 minutes doesn't mean much - but 30,000 people saving 10 minutes (that's current ridership on Link) is serious business that positively impacts the entire economy.

[mhays]

I'm talking about politics, not what would be nice to have. There's no chance whatsoever of a redundant line to the airport from a voter standpoint. A line through West Seattle that happens to intersect at Sea-Tac Station would be popular, but no a straight shot through the Duwamish.

[CityView Jim]

Originally Posted by UrbanBen

Whoa there. An individual saving 10 minutes doesn't mean much - but 30,000 people saving 10 minutes (that's current ridership on Link) is serious business that positively impacts the entire economy.

Are 30,000 riding the link from the airport to (say) Westlake? Not necessarily.

[sequoias]

Originally Posted by CityView Jim

Are 30,000 riding the link from the airport to (say) Westlake? Not necessarily.

Of course not and the highest peak was about 34,000 in one day for the whole system.

[UrbanBen]

Originally Posted by CityView Jim

Are 30,000 riding the link from the airport to (say) Westlake? Not necessarily.

In ten years they will be.

I think when we talk about ridership, we all tend to lose sight of the difference between what's happening today and what will be happening when the choices we make now actually come to fruition.

Anything we say is a good idea to build now will take 10, even 15-20 years to happen. That means Link will go to Capitol Hill, the U-district, Northgate, even Lynnwood. It also means folks coming from the eastside will be transferring in the downtown tunnel to go to the i. Plus, we'll have at least one, if not three more stations south of Sea-Tac.

A bypass makes a lot of sense in the longer run. Not only would it better serve these longer trips, but it would reduce load on trains coming into the Rainier Valley, where most Link ridership is currently coming from. In 20 years, we're going to have a situation where trains are packed before they even get to Rainier Beach.

If you're only thinking about this year, you won't be a meaningful part of the discussion. Think ahead - none of this was built for 2011, it was built to serve from now until 2111.

[UrbanBen]

Originally Posted by mhays

I'm talking about politics, not what would be nice to have. There's no chance whatsoever of a redundant line to the airport from a voter standpoint. A line through West Seattle that happens to intersect at Sea-Tac Station would be popular, but no a straight shot through the Duwamish.

Actually, a Duwamish bypass is likely all that will get South King County to vote for another regional package. Are you only thinking about Seattle here?

[mhays]

Actually... You won't have much luck selling a line that will easily be called a "duplicate" by opponents.

South King County could be served by a West Seattle route. Eventually, maybe it can justify a Kent Valley route, but that's a long way off, and it'll be hampered by Sounder. An improved Sounder is probably the best method, maybe including a SoDo stop someday.

I'm mystified by what could be a saleable route from Downtown through SoDo and Sea-Tac, then to parts of South King County that aren't already planned for South Link. Nothing strikes me as particularly good route planning, and nothing looks plausible from a campaign standpoint. A plausible concept, intersecting the current line, might go through SoDo then SouthCenter and down the Kent Valley.

[BoulderGrad]

While I agree with mr Hays that a 'bypass' or 'express' by itself is kindof a waste, a line that roughly follows 99 through southpark, georgetown, downtown, fremont, greenlake, etc that eventually connects to the original central link line would be a pretty good idea (Basically a continuation of Ben's 'blue line' until it runs into central link where it makes the bend south by the Boeing access road). It wouldn't just be a shortcut to avoid rainier valley, it would be a 2nd connection to the airport for more westerly neighborhoods. It avoids cramming all the trains from those lines into the Rainier Valley segment. etc

When I get some free time over the holidays, I'm going to draw up a map for it (along with finally adding links to my thread finder).

[UrbanBen]

Originally Posted by BoulderGrad

While I agree with mr Hays that a 'bypass' or 'express' by itself is kindof a waste, a line that roughly follows 99 through southpark, georgetown, downtown, fremont, greenlake, etc that eventually connects to the original central link line would be a pretty good idea (Basically a continuation of Ben's 'blue line' until it runs into central link where it makes the bend south by the Boeing access road). It wouldn't just be a shortcut to avoid rainier valley, it would be a 2nd connection to the airport for more westerly neighborhoods. It avoids cramming all the trains from those lines into the Rainier Valley segment. etc

When I get some free time over the holidays, I'm going to draw up a map for it (along with finally adding links to my thread finder).

It's not my line - it's identified by the Seattle Transit Master Plan.

http://www.seattle.gov/transportatio...0Corridors.pdf

[bgwah]

Here is my laughably amateurish map drawn in Microsoft Paint!



Don't laugh at it too much!! :P

Here's a quick description:

Blue - Central Link
Red - East Link
Orange - I90 corridor to Issaquah
Green - West Seattle to Ballard. Since this is obviously a fantasy-map, I extended it to Burien and Bothell (via Lake City). :P
Cyan - SR 99 based line
Yellow - BNSF-based on Eastside, follows highways to Lynnwood after Totem Lake and to Burien after Renton
Purple - Ballard to Redmond, crossing LW over 520.

[BoulderGrad]

Originally Posted by bgwah

Here is my laughably amateurish map drawn in Microsoft Paint!

Don't laugh at it too much!! :P

Here's a quick description:

Blue - Central Link
Red - East Link
Orange - I90 corridor to Issaquah
Green - West Seattle to Ballard. Since this is obviously a fantasy-map, I extended it to Burien and Bothell (via Lake City). :P
Cyan - SR 99 based line
Yellow - BNSF-based on Eastside, follows highways to Lynnwood after Totem Lake and to Burien after Renton
Purple - Ballard to Redmond, crossing LW over 520.

You can do the same on Google Maps. But looks good, and just about what I was thinking as well.

[bgwah]

Originally Posted by BoulderGrad

You can do the same on Google Maps. But looks good, and just about what I was thinking as well.

Yeah I started off doing that but it took way too long and I couldn't figure out how to add multiple colors. :P

[BoulderGrad]

Originally Posted by bgwah

Yeah I started off doing that but it took way too long and I couldn't figure out how to add multiple colors. :P

Will put it together when I get some time

[Seattlelife]

I know mass transit like this is planned for the future but I feel like the yellow line in your map is decades off. There isn't the density, demographic, or desire in the Renton, Bellevue Kirkland, Bothell corridor for a line. Perhaps when some new city centers and TOD type neighborhoods are planned/constructed, but right now the extreme majority of that corridor is car centric to the max. Even apartment complexes are individual buildings surrounded by parking. Walking into and out of them is not pedestrian friendly at all.

With that that said I hope there's a drive (no pun intended) towards TOD

[bgwah]

Originally Posted by Seattlelife

I know mass transit like this is planned for the future but I feel like the yellow line in your map is decades off. There isn't the density, demographic, or desire in the Renton, Bellevue Kirkland, Bothell corridor for a line. Perhaps when some new city centers and TOD type neighborhoods are planned/constructed, but right now the extreme majority of that corridor is car centric to the max. Even apartment complexes are individual buildings surrounded by parking. Walking into and out of them is not pedestrian friendly at all.

With that that said I hope there's a drive (no pun intended) towards TOD

Well obviously my map is a very long-term plan.

The yellow line goes through Downtown Bellevue, which is one of the main centers of our region. Downtown Kirkland is fairly dense, and is popular enough that it will continue to fill up. I hope they would at least ease the height limits inland a bit, I know height near the waterfront is a big political no-no there.

Factoria is already a semi-important center which has great potential for future density, IMO.

The South Kirkland P&R and Totem Lake both have amazing TOD opportunity.

Factoria is already a semi-important center which has great potential for future density, IMO. Same with Renton. Lynnwood is already getting Central Link and wants to become the next Bellevue. Don't know if it will actually happen, but most seem to think a second N-S line along SR 99 will be a logical step some decades into the future. So if Lynnwood already has two lines, I think linking the yellow line into it would be common sense. And if it gets three lines, it just about has to get some density and become a major regional hub.

I do imagine most of the line between Kirkland and Lynnwood would be auto-centric park-and-rides, though. Much like a good segment of North Link will be.

Still... the way I've drawn it, the yellow line connects to every other line in the system, some multiple times. It would be able to draw on people coming from all over the region.

Nevertheless, of all the lines on my map, yellow would probably be built last.

[alexjonlin]

SODO Station to Tukwila/International Blvd Station is 11 miles and take 24 minutes with five stations in between. The shortest you could make a bypass through the Duwamish area is just over ten miles. If you added in a couple stations (which you'd have to have for it to make any sense) and you factor in that it can't go the full 55 mph very often, you end up with a travel time loss of maybe 5 minutes. Not worth it. Make it go somewhere else, like the Kent Valley.

[benleis]

The proper way to do an express would be a la the New York Subways where you double track and run the express line faster than the local without all the stops rather than creating a whole new alignment.

However, obviously we didn't provision for that when the first phase was built (nor would it have been politically feasible). At this point our metro probably isn't big enough to merit these type optimizations yet. I'll be happy to see regular lines establish more regional coverage sometime within my lifetime.

Ben

[alexjonlin]

I'm not sure any Metro systems in the world outside of New York and a few-mile segment in Chicago have local and express tracks. Does anyone know if there are any others?