Today's Merchant Navy

[blahblah]

Originally Posted by Squirrelking

Agree with desertswo, those low freeboards have had me scratching my head for years. Sick of Titanic analogies as well, Herald of Free Enterprise is more apt.

Just as an aside why is Merchant Navy on the military board?

News agencies referring to her as a Liner too. She isn't (wasn't) she's a cruise ship

As for why I put this thread in the Barracks? Well, the RFA is technically Merchant Navy, and Merchant Navy ships can and have been used as military troop carriers or hospital ships in the past. More Merchant Navy ships were lost in WWII than Military ones too.

The other reason is.... Can't think of anywhere else, and The Barracks is mostly shipping related anyway.

[desertswo]

Originally Posted by Squirrelking

Agree with desertswo, those low freeboards have had me scratching my head for years. Sick of Titanic analogies as well, Herald of Free Enterprise (HFE) is more apt.

Actually Mr. Squirrel, both disasters are germane, but everyone knows Titanic, whereas HFE, while truly tragic and illustrative of the effects of free communication on stability, just isn't that well known, or remembered by other than family. Likewise, I doubt many Americans or Canadians remember the actual Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald. I'm serious, there are a lot of folks running around out there who think Gordon Lightfoot made it all up so that he could sell a bazillion records.

In any event, both HFE and Titanic sank in part because the effects of free surface and free communication were exacerbated by the ships' speed through the water.

Originally Posted by Squirrelking

Just as an aside why is Merchant Navy on the military board?

Just my opinion, but blablah was correct to put it here. When one is talking grand strategy, maritime power in the support of that strategy includes both naval and mercantile contributions. As I noted somewhere else, the US became a major maritime power on the strength of a merchant fleet that owed its success to the Royal Navy, which made the seas safe for every country's commerce. That's a legacy as "herding dog" for the world's sheep that any nation would be proud of.

Originally Posted by smartster

In my opinion she's obviously hit rocks.
She even looks like she's got rock protruding from the damage impact zone.
Frogmen? Why? If you wanted to sabotage her there's much easier ways of doing that (bomb, RPG, whatever)
Perhaps her Captain was late and wanted to save time by cutting a shorter course? Time = fuel = money^2
I think they'll find she was out of position, and failed to clear UW obstacles. My guess is they'll charge the CO and crew with gross negligence.
I'll bet Lloyds (the ship insurance people) are going to dreading the compensation and payouts on this one!

She did hit rocks, and she does have a big fucking rock, weighing in at several tons at least, protruding from her guts. To crush that hull plating along the bilge strakes and between the framing takes a lot of force; then actually peeling the hull strakes inboard off of their frames and pushing all that metal inside the hull (a strikingly good imitation of the can opener utensil found in a Swiss Amy Knife) whilst simultaneously breaking off that big chunk of rock, pretty much seals the deal. Damage of this sort is way off the charts in terms of the typical merchant crew's ability to cope. Moreover, it is apparent to me that the ship essentially never slowed or stopped once it had the collision. I don't know how fast they were going, but the top end is supposed to be in the vicinity of 21kts. I suspect that they were doing at least 15kts and didn't slow at all, or at least very little.

This is an edit because I just put two and two together and the Master's story with regard to "hitting a rock" that's not on the charts is just that; a story. Look where the bulk of that damage is, and then notice how there is little if any damage forward along the hull. Most specifically, her port fin stabilizer is untouched and protruding out and down away from the hull as it should. It is in one piece as I said, as is most of the rest of the hull. I don't know how many people read what I wrote about maneuvering and such in another thread, but I addressed the phenomenon of the "pivot point." It is an imaginary column if you will, that extends down through the hull about which the ship pivots when the rudder is put over. That damage is port side aft. The only way that could happen is if he had right rudder and a lot of it on when he hit that rock. Bad juju indeed.

I don't know how she hit the rock, although navigation error of some sort certainly does look to be the case. However, I think I understand what the ship's master may have been doing once the collision/grounding occurred, and why his idea, which had merit in terms of SOP in events like groundings, his execution was flawed.

OK, first of all, when you have hole in your at, near or below the waterline, underway/making way is bad juju. Why? Because it acts just like a Hoover, only instead of sucking up dirt, it's sucking up water . . . and lots of it. That's why the problems with both free surface effect and free communication with the sea were such an issue. The longer the Master kept way on, the more water came pouring into the hull, making an already tenuous stability curve when undamaged, absolutely untenable.

So, in my view, the Master is already rattled, and he wants to save his ship; he really does, but his best choice would have been to stop all way, get people into the boats and rafts if necessary, and do what one can in order to maintain the water tight boundaries at least two to three bulkheads back from the damage area on all sides. The problem with this scenario is that you are consigning your passengers to take their chances at being rescued at sea; and in any case you are for sure forced into waiting for the emergency ships and aircraft to get on station and pull your chestnuts from the fire.

As I said, he's rattled and the thought of being culpable in the loss of a $500M ship is causing him to make decisions that are less and less on the safe side of the risk assessment graph. I believe what he was trying to do was make best speed to the nearest port and run her up on a beach, or reef, or preferably just get inside the mole of that harbor and let her settle on the bottom there. Believe it or not, it's SOP that if you do go hard aground and you are stuck fast, you counter-intuitively actually increase the ship's load in that portion of the hull aground. Calculating "tons aground" is a very important operation because what you are doing is protecting the underwater portion of the hull by reducing the movement of that portion against rocks or coral reefs or whatever due to wave action; no movement = no damage. Regardless, what he doesn't want is for her to go down in really deep water. Look where they are when the stability curve just goes the way of all flesh and she turns turtle. He almost made it; and if he had, we might be having a very different discussion today. He gambled, and he lost. He may still have done the company a favor in the long run, but in the shot term; he is the goat, especially when he leaves the ship when others are still aboard.

[blahblah]

Thanks for the professional insight as always Desertswo...

Unfortunately....

Costa Concordia: More bodies found in capsized ship



Emergency teams have found two more bodies in the partially submerged Costa Concordia cruise liner that sank off the western coast of Italy.
It brings to five those known to have died after the ship, carrying more than 4,000 people, hit rocks on Friday.
The coastguard said divers had found the bodies of two unidentified elderly men trapped in a flooded area.
Earlier three survivors were found, more than 24 hours after the ship ran aground near a Tuscan island.
Coastguard spokesman Filippo Marini said the two elderly victims were "found on the third floor in a meeting area section of the ship".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16568760

[Squirrelking]

I'd say Herald of Free Enterprise is considerably well known, it left a pretty big impression...

Fair enough on the placement, on a related but irrelevant matter I still have my BP issue "round" stripes, won't be able to wear them anywhere else unless I joined the RN but an interesting talking point nontheless.

desertswo, whats your background, naval or just a strong interest? Know what you mean about the pivot point, can't remember if theres a more technical term as I was engine room scum and only studied as much naval architecture as necessary so as not to sink something :p

[desertswo]

Originally Posted by Squirrelking

I'd say Herald of Free Enterprise is considerably well known, it left a pretty big impression...

Fair enough on the placement, on a related but irrelevant matter I still have my BP issue "round" stripes, won't be able to wear them anywhere else unless I joined the RN but an interesting talking point nontheless.

desertswo, whats your background, naval or just a strong interest? Know what you mean about the pivot point, can't remember if theres a more technical term as I was engine room scum and only studied as much naval architecture as necessary so as not to sink something :p

"Strong interest" for sure!

No, seriously, here I am with my wife upon graduating from the Surface Warfare Officer Division Officer Course, 11 years later as a Lieutenant Commander with a couple of my critters, another on the day of my retirement with my then five year old son, and finally, how I go to sea these days.



The breakdown is 25 years as a US Navy Surface Warfare Officer (SWO), four ships (command of one), Commander-in-Chief, U.S. Pacific Fleet Staff (afloat), two commands ashore (I believe someone used a term from the RN - "Stone Frigates?!!" I liked that one), Director of Engineering and Damage Control Training at Surface Warfare Officer School Command in Newport, Rhode Island; Strategic Planner/Operations Watch Officer, The Joint Staff, the Pentagon, Washington, DC.

Most people are not aware of the one major difference between the Royal Navy and the US Navy with regard to the progression of commissioned officers training and education. It goes something like this: There is a definite line of demarcation between career paths for those who are in the navigation and warfare specialties in the Royal Navy, and those who take up the mantle of propulsion engineering. In the Royal Navy, the ship's engineering officer is highly esteemed and sits at the right hand of the Commanding Officer, but he can never BE the Commanding Officer. In the US Navy the ship's "Engineer Officer" (a term I personally find unwieldy) can and does rise to Command at Sea. Anyway, I prefer the title "Chief Engineer" or as the person is commonly known - "CHENG" - myself, but there is this belief on high that it confuses people; causing them to think we are "Chief Petty Officers." I can't imagine how, but no one ever listens to me!

Now, the US Navy does have what are called Engineering Duty Officers (EDO) who do serve at sea as CHENGs but ashore they are charged with running ship repair facilities and doing design and procurement work, not just in propulsion engineering but in weapons systems design, etc., etc. They are, to use a British term "Boffins" in uniform, and just as "drifty" some times. There are some pretty famous EDOs too. One was named Rickover for instance. There was another named "Parsons" who is pretty famous within the EDO community, and the wider Navy as well. He designed the radar proximity fuse that was put into all the 5" gun shells and Army artillery as well. In the Navy's case, they became the most lethal weapon used against Japanese aircraft. He followed that up by designing and building the very complicated fusing system for the atomic bombs used on Hiroshima and Nagasaki; in fact, he actually flew on the Hiroshima mission and armed the bomb AFTER the plane cleared the island of Tinian. He did that at the last minute after watching several B-29s crash on takeoff. He didn't want Tinian to disappear in a blinding flash.

Anyway, they are what we mere caretakers call "real" engineers; because we stand watch as Officer of the Deck (Officer of the Watch in the RN), Combat Information Center or Combat Direction Center (CICWO; the name changes with the class of ship) and Tactical Action Officer (TAO), throw in being qualified as Engineering Officers of the Watch (EOOW) and we who are the "regular guys" serving as CHENGs are as well grounded in the operational arts and the tactical employment of the ship and her weapons systems as anybody out there. In fact, in the guided missile cruiser in which I served, I was the TAO at General Quarters (Action Stations to you) simply because, as you know with your background, in dealing with engineering equipment casualties and such as EOOW, you learn to think on your feet real fast and make decisions while not of a combat employment nature, are real time, and important to the operation of the ship, in combat or peacetime. Because of that, I was equally adept at thinking fast on my feet in the Combat Direction Center or on the bridge. Being handed that honor of being the CO's "voice" as it were, pissed off both the Operations and Combat Systems Department Heads, but that was their problem, not mine. In any event, I am not saying that our method of doing business was better than the Royal Navy's; in fact, as I mentioned to someone else in another thread, I can think of a half a dozen reason why you all do a better job of it; but it is what it is, and we are comfortable with it.

Anyway, I just stumbled into these threads a couple of years ago when I was looking for something totally unrelated. I answered a question regarding why QE was to have two island structures, and have been popping in when I've nothing better to do (I'm a university professor/security consultant when I'm not writing long-winded pieces of tripe like this) ever since.

[WatcherZero]

Theres a rumour doing the rounds that a former officer of the ship retired to the island and whenever the ship passes it goes as close as possible to the island in a 'salute' to the former officer.

[desertswo]

Originally Posted by WatcherZero

Theres a rumour doing the rounds that a former officer of the ship retired to the island and whenever the ship passes it goes as close as possible to the island in a 'salute' to the former officer.

Yeah, I read one where it is some sort of "salute" to the town, for the mayor's benefit. Regardless, if anything even remotely like that was going on, it's stupid with a capital "STOO!" The thing I read said that they do it around supper time on the ship and turn on every light topside and inside the dining areas so that it looks like this bizarre floating crystal palace. Here's the thing with any of that nonsense, even if not done in essentially restricted waters, is that when all of those lights are blazing away, other shipping traffic in the area have a difficult time at best of discerning her running lights against the background "light show" that is going on. I suspect that being aboard the ship and trying to conn her in the dark is no picnic for the very same reason. We shut all the lights off, and at most have some red internal lighting in CIC but everything else is blacked out so that we can protect our night vision. They do everything they can to destroy their night vision. Well, I guess we'll find out.

[blahblah]

OK. I have a theory on how she capsized so quickly:-

• You'd think that the ship would capsize on the side where the damage is, but the damage is exposed
• A Diagram of her movements shows a sharp turn to port as the crew tried to head for the nearest harbour, and indeed the position of the ship does seem to indicate that a sharp turn to port was made

So, did that sharp turn cause a dramatic shift in her weight distribution as the water in her hull moved in the turn and is that what caused her to capsize much more quickly than she otherwise would have done?


Just a theory...


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/inte...-unfolded.html


More photos

[desertswo]

Originally Posted by blahblah

OK. I have a theory on how she capsized so quickly:-

• You'd think that the ship would capsize on the side where the damage is, but the damage is exposed
• A Diagram of her movements shows a sharp turn to port as the crew tried to head for the nearest harbour, and indeed the position of the ship does seem to indicate that a sharp turn to port was made

So, did that sharp turn cause a dramatic shift in her weight distribution as the water in her hull moved in the turn and is that what caused her to capsize much more quickly than she otherwise would have done?


Just a theory...


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/inte...-unfolded.html


More photos

It's a good theory, and it would sort of fit hand in glove with mine vis-a-vis the original damage. I'm looking at the spot in the hull where the damage occurred and I just have to believe that it is on the port side 3/4 of the way aft because the rudder was put over hard initially to starboard to miss the rocks and shoals that caused the original damage. As I explained to one of the guys who asked about ship handling and maneuvering some weeks ago, because of that pivot point, which on most ships is just aft of the pilot house, but may be a bit farther aft in this ship because the pilot house essentially sits above the bow, when the rudder is put over hard like that, the stern tends to do the nautical version of the so called "Tokyo Drift" in street racing. The stern would have swung to port and clipped that shoal, causing the damage we see there. Now at some point, the Master is going to either put the rudder amidships, or even as you suggest, put left rudder on. Either way, without significantly reducing his speed through the water, the way on is going to force more and more sea water into the interior of the hull. Now, as you say, put left rudder on, and what most of the interested parties here don't understand is that a ship always heels to the side opposite the turn. In other words, "Left full rudder" the ship is indeed going to turn to the left, but it will heel outboard to starboard. You do that with free surface effect on the water you've already shipped because you didn't slow or stop, and you are going to kill whatever righting moment your stability curve might have provided. To put it mildly, you are fucked six ways from Sunday.

[smartster]

Originally Posted by desertswo

Yeah, I read one where it is some sort of "salute" to the town, for the mayor's benefit. Regardless, if anything even remotely like that was going on, it's stupid with a capital "STOO!" The thing I read said that they do it around supper time on the ship and turn on every light topside and inside the dining areas so that it looks like this bizarre floating crystal palace. Here's the thing with any of that nonsense, even if not done in essentially restricted waters, is that when all of those lights are blazing away, other shipping traffic in the area have a difficult time at best of discerning her running lights against the background "light show" that is going on. I suspect that being aboard the ship and trying to conn her in the dark is no picnic for the very same reason. We shut all the lights off, and at most have some red internal lighting in CIC but everything else is blacked out so that we can protect our night vision. They do everything they can to destroy their night vision. Well, I guess we'll find out.

very different on a cruise ship haha, I'm not sure many pople people would pay a couple of grand to sit in a dark red glow for 2 weeks. But I agree - I think it out be ruled as light pollution and banned except for certain cases like a fleet review or something where every other ship and sea user knows and expects the whole area to be lit up like a christmas tree.

Desertswo, after spending a portion of your life navigating the worlds oceans, how plausible is the theory that the rock in question wasn't marked/picked up by onboard systems?

No Matter what the Captain tried to do (even if we all agree that his intention was to run aground to minimise possiblity of loss in deep water) he will still no doubt carry the rap for the change in course.

HoFE (Herald of Free Enterprise) is perhaps the most telling of the Free Surface Effect, as she only had around 2, 3 inches of water, but over a large open space.

MV Estonia is a hushed wreck. She went down in a storm in the baltic in 1994. over 90% of passengers were lost. Her wreck site is actually banned, and covered with military radar. Most European nations have signed a legal act preventing anyone even approaching the wreck. That does give some credibility to the conspiracy that she was carrying things she shouldn't have. Basically the theory goes that western intelligence had got hold of secret russian weaponry/munitions and when the secret got out someone sabotaged it, or the CO opened bow doors to try and chuck it off which somehow allowed the ship to be flooded. Pretty far fetched I know.


MV riverdance was hit by waves and her cargo shifted.

also anyone see the news report on BBC where a south korean ship blew herself apart?

[WatcherZero]

11 confirmed dead and 24 still missing now.

[blahblah]

Earlier, a recording of a conversation allegedly between the captain and a port official - recorded shortly after the crash - emerged that suggested Capt Schettino left the ship before all passengers had escaped.

In the recording, on the Corriere della Sera's website, a man who identifies himself as Livorno Port Authority chief Gregorio de Falco can be heard repeatedly telling the captain to get back on board the ship to help the stranded passengers.

"Schettino, maybe you saved yourself from the sea, but I'll make you have trouble for sure. Go aboard," says Mr De Falco.

The captain appears to refuse, replying first that there are rescuers already on board, and then that it is dark and difficult to see.
Mr De Falco replies: "Do you want to go home, Schettino? It's dark, so you want to go home?"


Divers describe scene in cruise liner


Captain: Rocks not detected


Explosives used in search for missing



Why the captain changed course


How cruise ship deviated from route


Night vision footage of ship rescue



Cruise ship dancer: 'Absolute panic'

During the bail hearing, the captain said he could not get on board the vessel as it was standing at a 90 degree angle. He has previously maintained that he did not abandon the ship before the evacuation was completed.

Shortly after daybreak on Tuesday rescue crews blasted several holes in the ship, now lying on its side metres from Giglio island, in order to gain access to areas they had not yet been able to search.
Hours later, the coast guard announced that more bodies had been found.

BBC NEWS

Coast guard to captain (who has already left the ship): "Hello. This is De Falco from Livorno, am I speaking with the captain?"

Captain to Coast Guard: "Yes, good evening Captain De Falco."

Coast Guard: "This is De Falco from Livorno, am I speaking with the captain? Please tell me your name."

Captain: "This is captain Schettino."

Coast Guard: "Schettino? Listen Schettino, there are people trapped on board. Now you need to go on your life boat, under the bow of the ship on the side. There is a ladder. You need to climb up the ladder and board the ship. Get on board and report to me how many people there are. Is that clear? I am recording this conversation, captain Schettino."

Captain: "Captain, let me tell you one thing..."

Coast Guard: "Speak up!"

Captain: "The ship, at this moment..."

Coast Guard: "Captain, speak up! Shield the microphone with your hand and speak louder, clear?"

Captain: "At this moment the ship is tilted."

Coast Guard: "I understand. Listen, there are people who are coming down the ladder on the bow. Go back in the opposite direction, get back on the ship, and tell me how many people there are and what they have on board. Clear? Tell me if there are children, women and what kind of help they need. And you tell me the number of each of these categories. Is that clear? Look, Schettino, perhaps you have saved yourself from the sea but I will make you look very bad. I will make you pay for this. Dammit!"

Captain: "Captain, please..."

Coast Guard: "There is no please about it. Go back on board. Assure me you are going back on board!"

Captain: "I am in the life boat, under the ship, I haven't gone anywhere, I'm here."

Coast Guard: "What are you doing?"

Captain: "I am coordinating..."

Coast Guard: "What are you coordinating there? Get on board the ship and coordinate the rescue on board. Are you refusing?"

Captain: "No, no I am not refusing."

Coast Guard: "Are you refusing to go on board? Tell me the reason why you are not going."

Captain: "I am not going because there is another life boat that has stopped."

Coast Guard: "You get on board. This is an order. You need to continue the rescue. You called the evacuation, now I am in charge. You need to go on board the ship, is that clear?"

Captain: "Captain."

Coast Guard: "Can you hear me?"

Captain: "I am going."

Coast Guard: "Go. Call me when you are on board. My air rescue team is there. He is at the bow. Get going. There are already corpses Schettino. Move!"

Captain: "How many dead are there?"

Coast Guard: "I don't know. One I am aware of. One I've heard of. You need to be telling me this. Christ!"

Captain: "But you are aware it is dark and we can't see anything?"

Coast Guard: "And what do you want? To go back home, Schettino? It's dark and you want to go back home? Get on the bow of the ship and tell me what can be done, how many people there are and what do they need. Now!"

Captain: "I am here with the second commander."

Coast Guard: "Excuse me?"

Captain: "I am here with the second commander his name is..."

Coast Guard: "So both of you, get on board, both of you. What is the name of the second?"

Captain: "Dimitry."

Coast Guard: "Dimitry who?"

Captain: "Dimitry.. " (Unclear)

Coast Guard: "You and your second commander, go and get on board now. Is that clear?"

Captain: "Captain, I want to get on board the ship but the other life boat has stopped its engine and it is drifting and I called other rescuers."

Coast Guard: "It's already one hour you are telling me this. Now, get on board. Get on board! And you tell me how many people there are."

Captain: "Okay, Captain."

Coast Guard: "Go, right now!"

Telegraph.co.uk

What a fucking prick the captain is if that transcript is authentic.

[AdmiralAnthony]

The transmission is genuine. The Captain is a complete and utter prick.

[WatcherZero]

The cruise company claimed that while it had allowed the Ship to go close to the Island last year on an earlier visit that it was never within 500m of the shore. Thats been proved false as Lloyds Shipping List has released the previous course showing it passed just 230m from shore, closer than on the occasion when it struck rocks.

[blahblah]

Originally Posted by WatcherZero

The cruise company claimed that while it had allowed the Ship to go close to the Island last year on an earlier visit that it was never within 500m of the shore. Thats been proved false as Lloyds Shipping List has released the previous course showing it passed just 230m from shore, closer than on the occasion when it struck rocks.

But as the diagram shows, the spot of the previous near miss isn't where the ship collided. According to another diagram I've seen (I'll try to find) the collision point was the white dot which is inside the corner of the black line leading from the "The same voyage also travelled along....." label

[WatcherZero]

The point is the rebuke to the company which said it was never within 500m of the coast, while the 230m point is the closest on that voyage it was within 500m at other points as well.

[skit_uk]

Seems pretty obvious that neither of them have been through any sort of Crew Resource Management training. Instead of arguing with each other they should be working with each other regardless of where the captain happens to be.

[blahblah]

Originally Posted by WatcherZero

The point is the rebuke to the company which said it was never within 500m of the coast, while the 230m point is the closest on that voyage it was within 500m at other points as well.

All that will mean is that someone at the company, and possibly the company itself will get a rap across the knuckles, or possibly the captain of the ship (if different) on the previous pass will get a rap across the knuckles. I think it very unlikely that it will have an impact on the case against the captain.

It's like saying, "I never run anyone over the last time I drove down a pedestrianised street, it's not my fault someone was there this time"

According to Italian media, Capt Schettino told investigators he had left the ship accidentally after tripping and falling into a rescue craft.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16606405

[AdmiralAnthony]

Originally Posted by skit_uk

Seems pretty obvious that neither of them have been through any sort of Crew Resource Management training. Instead of arguing with each other they should be working with each other regardless of where the captain happens to be.

No the Captain of the ship was not in the right location to work with the Commander of the Coast Guard since he was not onboard the goddamn ship!!
You can't co-ordinate a rescue sitting in a freaking lifeboat!

[WatcherZero]

Originally Posted by blahblah

All that will mean is that someone at the company, and possibly the company itself will get a rap across the knuckles, or possibly the captain of the ship (if different) on the previous pass will get a rap across the knuckles. I think it very unlikely that it will have an impact on the case against the captain.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16606405

Its important because the company argues the course was preprogrammed and it was the captains fault for deviating from it without authorisation as they would never authorise the ship to be within 500m of the coast. The fact they previously authorised it blows that defence out of the water.