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Old June 10th, 2012, 07:47 PM   #481
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Originally Posted by Rekarte View Post
Democracy for u = gay dictatorship
hurt everybody for u pleasure
Like I said,right for some people and no right for others,the "true humanism" for u

I'd rather the true democracy,not this your fake democracy




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Old June 10th, 2012, 08:34 PM   #482
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Originally Posted by Erran View Post
Do you think I am the overly conservative person myself? No, Dear.
I am from Indonesia where all people are free to express their opinions, regardless race or religions, though more than 80% are Muslim. We don't ban building churches here, nor forbid people wearing religious attributes in public space. LOL

No need to be a fish to feel how swimming feels like. You just need to understand other people's feelings more. Someone from developed democratic country has to be better in understanding others, hasn't he/she. Don't tell me it's just hypocrisy.

Or should I be Arabic first to protect Arabic's rights?
Democracy, they said. Every person is born equal, they said. LOL
you're right
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Old June 10th, 2012, 11:46 PM   #483
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Originally Posted by Erran View Post
Do you think I am the overly conservative person myself? No, Dear.
I am from Indonesia where all people are free to express their opinions, regardless race or religions, though more than 80% are Muslim. We don't ban building churches here, nor forbid people wearing religious attributes in public space. LOL
Except, as you bloody well know, this idea of a free and liberal Indonesia (yes, much of the idea deriving from, OMG, western liberalism!) is eroding very fast in this country. Many churches are being closed down and building new ones have become increasingly hard to do. Islamic sects that does not conform to Indonesia's sunni majority have had their mosques attacked and members of the Ahmadiyah sect were subjected to physical violence. Increasingly, hard-liners are attacking the tiny liberal muslim community (when I say attacking, I meant physically, with the police doing not one damn thing), one atheist guy was put in jail because he posted about not believing in god in his facebook wall.

Many regional by-laws are based on sharia precepts and the constitutional court does nothing about it, despite being a clear violation of the constitution. Women are forced to wear veil in some cities, disregarding their religion or values, in one of the suburb of Jakarta, women aren't even allowed to roam the streets after 6 PM if unattended by a male relative. Have you not read the news in the last couple of years?

What bothers me are people like you who still spout this idiotic notion that Indonesia is still a tolerant and peace-loving society, when the idea of having Lady Gaga perform in Jakarta was akin to preaching satanism. What bothers me are those middle class people who could be so out of touch with reality and thinks that Indonesia is doing fine, when in fact its secular values are being dismantled at an alarming rate. Where is Indonesia's so-called multiculturalist society? Forget being a healthy modern state, the only model Indonesia is nearing is Pakistan.
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Old June 11th, 2012, 12:07 AM   #484
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Except, as you bloody well know, this idea of a free and liberal Indonesia (yes, much of the idea deriving from, OMG, western liberalism!) is eroding very fast in this country. Many churches are being closed down and building new ones have become increasingly hard to do. Islamic sects that does not conform to Indonesia's sunni majority have had their mosques attacked and members of the Ahmadiyah sect were subjected to physical violence. Increasingly, hard-liners are attacking the tiny liberal muslim community (when I say attacking, I meant physically, with the police doing not one damn thing), one atheist guy was put in jail because he posted about not believing in god in his facebook wall.

Many regional by-laws are based on sharia precepts and the constitutional court does nothing about it, despite being a clear violation of the constitution. Women are forced to wear veil in some cities, disregarding their religion or values, in one of the suburb of Jakarta, women aren't even allowed to roam the streets after 6 PM if unattended by a male relative. Have you not read the news in the last couple of years?

What bothers me are people like you who still spout this idiotic notion that Indonesia is still a tolerant and peace-loving society, when the idea of having Lady Gaga perform in Jakarta was akin to preaching satanism. What bothers me are those middle class people who could be so out of touch with reality and thinks that Indonesia is doing fine, when in fact its secular values are being dismantled at an alarming rate. Where is Indonesia's so-called multiculturalist society? Forget being a healthy modern state, the only model Indonesia is nearing is Pakistan.
Mataram, these are very big accusations. Can you provide any news articles or references that substantiates these horrible things?
Regarding Lady Gaga, I believe it could be because many people are extremely homophobic to the point of paranoia. There are many homophobic people even in developed western nations.
Indonesia has always been progressive unlike the parochial foundations of countries like Pakistan. Where have you read of terrorist camps in Indonesia unlike Pakistan?
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Old June 11th, 2012, 01:44 AM   #485
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mataram View Post
Except, as you bloody well know, this idea of a free and liberal Indonesia (yes, much of the idea deriving from, OMG, western liberalism!) is eroding very fast in this country. Many churches are being closed down and building new ones have become increasingly hard to do. Islamic sects that does not conform to Indonesia's sunni majority have had their mosques attacked and members of the Ahmadiyah sect were subjected to physical violence. Increasingly, hard-liners are attacking the tiny liberal muslim community (when I say attacking, I meant physically, with the police doing not one damn thing), one atheist guy was put in jail because he posted about not believing in god in his facebook wall.
1. Do I need to post newly build mega churches in Indonesia? yes MEGACHURCHES....

2. Ahmadiyah case, it still an on going investigation, why the incident took place, why in the house that is being ambushed by the villagers were found hundreds of stones and machetes, and why a bus full loaded of ahmadiyah arrived a night before, why do they (the ahmadiyah) provoked the villagers.

3. This atheist guy is not put in jail because of his atheism, but he was a civil servant, before he enter the service he'd taken an oath of the office that he will not use his position for his own benefit under Islamic law therefore he was charge for a deception a fraud. Plus what he posted in facebook was a blasphemy, spreading hatred.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mataram View Post
Many regional by-laws are based on sharia precepts and the constitutional court does nothing about it, despite being a clear violation of the constitution. Women are forced to wear veil in some cities, disregarding their religion or values, in one of the suburb of Jakarta, women aren't even allowed to roam the streets after 6 PM if unattended by a male relative. Have you not read the news in the last couple of years?
1. Put ONE just one evidence where women were forced wearing VAIL, Put ONE just one evidence where NON-MOSLEM women were forced wearing hijab or VAIL as you call it.

put some source of your arguments, otherwise you are just sounds like my grandma whining abt her broken teeth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mataram View Post
What bothers me are people like you who still spout this idiotic notion that Indonesia is still a tolerant and peace-loving society, when the idea of having Lady Gaga perform in Jakarta was akin to preaching satanism. What bothers me are those middle class people who could be so out of touch with reality and thinks that Indonesia is doing fine, when in fact its secular values are being dismantled at an alarming rate. Where is Indonesia's so-called multiculturalist society? Forget being a healthy modern state, the only model Indonesia is nearing is Pakistan.
Yeah those majority Indonesian are just doing fine in their country, no need to worry or bothered, it just little thing whirling inside your head.
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Old June 11th, 2012, 03:30 AM   #486
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Originally Posted by megacity30 View Post
Mataram, these are very big accusations. Can you provide any news articles or references that substantiates these horrible things?
Regarding Lady Gaga, I believe it could be because many people are extremely homophobic to the point of paranoia. There are many homophobic people even in developed western nations.
Indonesia has always been progressive unlike the parochial foundations of countries like Pakistan. Where have you read of terrorist camps in Indonesia unlike Pakistan?
I am a Chinese Indonesian and a Christian, and I am doing well here. I run my own small business and as far as I have noticed, no one of my friends and relatives pay attention to what's going on in inter-religious relations. Are we ignorant and blind? No! We know that it's just media hype
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Old June 11th, 2012, 04:32 AM   #487
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Originally Posted by Skyprince View Post
My boss was robbed in daylight when he was in Sao Paulo subway 3 years ago.
But I know that crime rate in many countries in Latam has been reduced, though still to work more on it .



Of course Chile, Argentina and Uruguay are exceptions , just I hope Chile could learn something from UAE, Qatar with indcredible density of shops , restaurants, malls, street shopping, cafes etc its sooo vibrant and extremely superb atmosphere to be And NOT the dull setting I saw in European and Australian cities & neighborhoods, yeah maybe Westerners prefer to live in such atmosphere but not most of Asians, Arabs etc like me.
Thats ok, i like asia too. But you have spain, a country with happy loud people and they are west. Thats the reason why everybody loves spain. there are just some regions in norhtern spain where the people are not so warm (like the rest of spain). the only thing that maybe you will not like of spain is that there are some antiislamic vibe growing in the last years.
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Old June 11th, 2012, 06:44 AM   #488
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Originally Posted by derechaconservadora View Post
Thats ok, i like asia too. But you have spain, a country with happy loud people and they are west. Thats the reason why everybody loves spain. there are just some regions in norhtern spain where the people are not so warm (like the rest of spain). the only thing that maybe you will not like of spain is that there are some antiislamic vibe growing in the last years.
I like Spain , in fact one of my favourite European countries, but with its current economic problem plus I don't think its a "hyper-consumerist" nation and open enough to accept foreigners especially those who cannot speak Spanish language , so I cannot put it on par with the likes of UAE, Singapore, Australia etc
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Old June 11th, 2012, 07:04 AM   #489
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I am official setting up a counter for how many times you have used the word "hyper-consumerist" in this thread.

Currently, the number is standing at 531
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Old June 11th, 2012, 07:58 AM   #490
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"Hyper-consumerist"
I like to use that word to describe high density and vibrant shopping & dining activity
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Old June 11th, 2012, 09:12 AM   #491
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Originally Posted by The Cake On BBQ View Post
This is not an excuse for the conditions of Indian workers. European countries had a massive immigration wave in the last century from poor countries, although none of the immigrants in Europe ever had to live and work in such conditions.

So this justifies everything, huh?
But the poverty of Eastern Europe isn't comparable to deep poverty in South Asia & Middle East , which surrounds the tiny Gulf states



Quote:
Climbing up the innovation ladder? What do you think is gonna happen to the innovative soul of Arabs when Western engineers leave Arabia? hm?
I like tiny Gulf states because its a wonderful multi-national place ! I love the mix of people coming from different parts of the world contributing to the development of UAE, Qatar and to certain extent Oman, Bahrain and Kuwait

The world meets in such a vibrant, safe, highly developed centralized location of the world with great food, awesome shopping , very friendly people around

Quote:

Yes, it seems oppressing women, gays, atheists and anyone who doesn't want to live as if it's the 8th century is the priority of Asians and Arabs.
Then I can simply say that most Westerners still dare to live in their boring, dull and depressing environment unlike Arab and Asians ... this is also "backward" to me .

Of course not..

If European countries have the 70-80% of the vibrancy of what I saw in Dubai Abu Dhabi and Qatar , that's still not inhumane to me

Similarly if the Arabs or Asians have the 70-80% of so-called "rights" enjoyed by Westerners , still doesn't look bad to me ( and is there any Gays, women, atheists arrested for being what they are in Indonesia & Gulf nations except Saudi ? )
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Old June 11th, 2012, 09:26 AM   #492
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I hear that the people there are very modest too.
Awww shucks *blushes*
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Old June 11th, 2012, 10:01 AM   #493
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Development stems from education primarily. The countries which are the most developed tend to have the most educated citizenry, which makes them more marketable and enables fast economic growth. The United States has traditionally been so dominant because it had the best education system in the world. To a certain extent, it has deteriorated and you see a striking correlation between America's educational standing and it's standing in other measures. America's strong economic might today is still a byproduct of having the vast majority of the world's greatest universities and institutions of higher learning. Harvard, Princeton, Columbia, Stanford, Yale, etc. etc. America has 5% of the world's population but a large majority of the world's 100 best universities. This facilitates economic growth, research and productivity which has enable Americans to accrue a ton of material wealth (in conjunction with the fact that Americans work a shitload more than other developed countries' citizens like in Europe). I think for a country to become fully developed, it needs to have the same focus on education. Korea today is reaping the benefits of having powered some of Asia's best schools (Yonsei, Seoul National, Korea U). I gauge a country's developed status by its brain power and insofar as many of these countries are concerned (Mexico, UAE, Russia), the brain power is still fleeing to London, New York, Toronto, etc. This bodes ill for these countries future since you can't create a developed country with a bunch of illiterates and ideological blowhards as the main segment of your society, you need the smart people to propel a country to greatness. China's export sector is not gonna cut it at the end of the day. The UAE or Azerbaijan doubling down on oil is not gonna cut it at the end of the day. Russia focusing on natural gas isn't gonna cut it at the end of the day. Education is the key to developing a country.
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Old June 11th, 2012, 10:19 AM   #494
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Sorry, forgot a link

http://www.4icu.org/top200/

69 out of the top 100 universities in the world are in the United States
a further 6 are in Canada
That means 3/4 of this world's greatest brainpower is concentrated in two countries.
Canada is 0.5% of the world's population with 6% of the world's great schools
America is 4.4% of the world's population with 69% of the world's great schools

Latin America, Asia, Africa and the Middle East need to aim at building world-class universities, not johnny-come-lately skyscrapers that are forgotten the day after topping out and only prop up a city's image in a superficial level
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Old June 11th, 2012, 11:43 AM   #495
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Originally Posted by Manitopiaaa View Post
Development stems from education primarily. The countries which are the most developed tend to have the most educated citizenry, which makes them more marketable and enables fast economic growth. The United States has traditionally been so dominant because it had the best education system in the world. To a certain extent, it has deteriorated and you see a striking correlation between America's educational standing and it's standing in other measures. America's strong economic might today is still a byproduct of having the vast majority of the world's greatest universities and institutions of higher learning. Harvard, Princeton, Columbia, Stanford, Yale, etc. etc. America has 5% of the world's population but a large majority of the world's 100 best universities. This facilitates economic growth, research and productivity which has enable Americans to accrue a ton of material wealth (in conjunction with the fact that Americans work a shitload more than other developed countries' citizens like in Europe). I think for a country to become fully developed, it needs to have the same focus on education. Korea today is reaping the benefits of having powered some of Asia's best schools (Yonsei, Seoul National, Korea U). I gauge a country's developed status by its brain power and insofar as many of these countries are concerned (Mexico, UAE, Russia), the brain power is still fleeing to London, New York, Toronto, etc. This bodes ill for these countries future since you can't create a developed country with a bunch of illiterates and ideological blowhards as the main segment of your society, you need the smart people to propel a country to greatness. China's export sector is not gonna cut it at the end of the day. The UAE or Azerbaijan doubling down on oil is not gonna cut it at the end of the day. Russia focusing on natural gas isn't gonna cut it at the end of the day. Education is the key to developing a country.
Nice read bro.. just that, for me Education is only one element of development .
There are many other elements which I think must be considered:

* Physical infrastructure
* Safety/ crime rate
* Convenience in getting daily necessity like food and grocery
* The mix of people ( to me, cosmopolitan multi-national/ multi-race society is very important factor )

*Great vibrancy ( and not dull setting )
* Diversity/scale of industry
* Great healthcare
* some * Rights* as many of u think important

Maybe I missed out some others.
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Old June 11th, 2012, 12:18 PM   #496
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Originally Posted by bagak View Post

Yeah those majority Indonesian are just doing fine in their country, no need to worry or bothered, it just little thing whirling inside your head.
One or two cases never represent what is really going on. And shutting down an only church doesn't mean all of churches in country are on list to be shut.
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Old June 11th, 2012, 12:55 PM   #497
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But the poverty of Eastern Europe isn't comparable to deep poverty in South Asia & Middle East , which surrounds the tiny Gulf states
This is utter nonsense Skyprince. There is nothing about having 100's of millions of dirt poor a 1,000 miles which makes it that a country then has to pool from those nations and exploit them. The Gulf States could easily implement a livable minimal wages, permit labor unions or advocacy groups, allow a free press to investigate abuses, and sign up to international labor conventions and really punish abusive employers by they by and large do not.

You didn't see Japan import millions of Chinese and pay them a pittance wage even though for the last sixty years there were 100's of millions poor Chinese. You didn't see Southern Europe import millions of poor North Africans to be literally paid a pittance and be abused the way that laborers are in Arabia today. You are simply making excuses for mass abuse and frankly its disgraceful.
Quote:
The world meets in such a vibrant, safe, highly developed centralized location of the world with great food, awesome shopping , very friendly people around
You never stop talking like you work per word for the tourism beuaru.
Quote:
Then I can simply say that most Westerners still dare to live in their boring, dull and depressing environment unlike Arab and Asians ... this is also "backward" to me .
Of course you don't actually prove this to be true. You just keep repeating it even though many people would find such conclusions of yours to be bizarre.
Quote:
Of course not..
If European countries have the 70-80% of the vibrancy of what I saw in Dubai Abu Dhabi and Qatar , that's still not inhumane to me. Similarly if the Arabs or Asians have the 70-80% of so-called "rights" enjoyed by Westerners , still doesn't look bad to me
You equate your very silly definitions and judgements of "vibrancy" to basic human rights. Just wow.
Quote:
and is there any Gays, women, atheists arrested for being what they are in Indonesia & Gulf nations except Saudi ? )
Yes. They aren't allowed to openly and with dignity in a variety of circumstances one could think of.
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Originally Posted by bagak View Post
1. Do I need to post newly build mega churches in Indonesia? yes MEGACHURCHES.....
mataram is completely right in all his assertions.

And many have had to shut down in order to appease right wing Islamic fanatics.
Quote:
2. Ahmadiyah case, it still an on going investigation, why the incident took place, why in the house that is being ambushed by the villagers were found hundreds of stones and machetes, and why a bus full loaded of ahmadiyah arrived a night before, why do they (the ahmadiyah) provoked the villagers.
You have anything other then a right wing Indonesian news source that verifies these rumors? Perhaps they store machetes (if they do) because mobs of Muslims have gone around killing minorities lately and they go on rampages with seemingly little police intervention. They later then get extremely light sentences of less then a year for the price of spilling cheap non-Muslim blood.

http://www.salem-news.com/articles/m...-mosque-wg.php
May-11-2012
INDONESIA: Police Failed to Protect Ahmadiyah Mosque from Attacks
Quote:
3. This atheist guy is not put in jail because of his atheism, but he was a civil servant, before he enter the service he'd taken an oath of the office that he will not use his position for his own benefit under Islamic law therefore he was charge for a deception a fraud. Plus what he posted in facebook was a blasphemy, spreading hatred.
How was he using the position for his benefit? What is called blasphemy is simply opinion to others. It is only myopic intolerance to call others blasphemers. Absolutely no one is beholden to agree with your religious opinions no matter how vile you find their religious opinions to be. Perhaps some would find your religious opinions and judgements to be wrong or hateful does that mean you should be arrested?
Quote:
1. Put ONE just one evidence where women were forced wearing VAIL, Put ONE just one evidence where NON-MOSLEM women were forced wearing hijab or VAIL as you call it.
http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2...ear-veils.html
Tasikmalaya law to make Muslim women wear veils
6/04/2012
Tasikmalaya, West Java, will soon require all Muslim women, residents and visitors alike, to wear veils to enforce its sharia ordinance..........
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Old June 11th, 2012, 12:56 PM   #498
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Nice read bro.. just that, for me Education is only one element of development .
There are many other elements which I think must be considered:

* The mix of people ( to me, cosmopolitan multi-national/ multi-race society is very important factor )
So what do you think about South Korea, Taiwan, and Japan?
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Old June 11th, 2012, 02:02 PM   #499
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Except, as you bloody well know, this idea of a free and liberal Indonesia (yes, much of the idea deriving from, OMG, western liberalism!) is eroding very fast in this country. Many churches are being closed down and building new ones have become increasingly hard to do. Islamic sects that does not conform to Indonesia's sunni majority have had their mosques attacked and members of the Ahmadiyah sect were subjected to physical violence. Increasingly, hard-liners are attacking the tiny liberal muslim community (when I say attacking, I meant physically, with the police doing not one damn thing), one atheist guy was put in jail because he posted about not believing in god in his facebook wall.

Many regional by-laws are based on sharia precepts and the constitutional court does nothing about it, despite being a clear violation of the constitution. Women are forced to wear veil in some cities, disregarding their religion or values, in one of the suburb of Jakarta, women aren't even allowed to roam the streets after 6 PM if unattended by a male relative. Have you not read the news in the last couple of years?

What bothers me are people like you who still spout this idiotic notion that Indonesia is still a tolerant and peace-loving society, when the idea of having Lady Gaga perform in Jakarta was akin to preaching satanism. What bothers me are those middle class people who could be so out of touch with reality and thinks that Indonesia is doing fine, when in fact its secular values are being dismantled at an alarming rate. Where is Indonesia's so-called multiculturalist society? Forget being a healthy modern state, the only model Indonesia is nearing is Pakistan.

indonesia is far from pakistan, take example dress code, except from Aceh, is not bound by veil or something like that.....and the growing of this so called radical muslim is a result of democracy itself, so that's why if you insist you want to see indonesia becoming more secular and more free indonesia need another suharto that can make this radical muslim in check....
btw muslim that spouting radical idea and sharia is exist in europe too, so it is not an exclusive indonesia case

Last edited by onosqaciw; June 11th, 2012 at 02:23 PM.
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Old June 11th, 2012, 05:07 PM   #500
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Originally Posted by VECTROTALENZIS View Post
So what do you think about South Korea, Taiwan, and Japan?
They have advanced innovative economy & industry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by onosqaciw View Post
indonesia is far from pakistan, take example dress code, except from Aceh, is not bound by veil or something like that.....and the growing of this so called radical muslim is a result of democracy itself, so that's why if you insist you want to see indonesia becoming more secular and more free indonesia need another suharto that can make this radical muslim in check....
btw muslim that spouting radical idea and sharia is exist in europe too, so it is not an exclusive indonesia case
They said that because, they haven't been to Indonesia. Even if you go to Aceh, the so-called "most conservative" region of Indonesia , people there are tolerant enough in many regards, bar the most rural areas .
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