Chicago and Toronto: Similarities and Differences

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Sarcasticity

However, I don't think Toronto is even up there with NYC and London when it comes to diversity.

I spent my first 11 years in London and lived there as an adult briefly. I've only been to New York as a tourist (4 times), and have been living in Toronto for the past 11 years.

Toronto handily beats London in % terms, but by a small margin in absolute terms. The data seems to back that up. Toronto also beats New York in % terms, but obviously not in absolute terms (2.8 million vs 5.4 million). As far as groups represented, you'll find every minority possible in all 3.

The diversity in Toronto is quite astounding and shocks people not familiar with the city: 53% foreign born not just in the city centre, but across the metropolitan area. New York and London are both below 30% by that metric.

[isaidso]

I couldn't find stats just for Toronto, but found 10 year old data for Canada's foreign born population by nation of origin. This is 2001 data for all of Canada, or 5,647,126 foreign born. The number of foreign born in Canada has since jumped to about 6.7 million. It's safe to say that all of these groups would be present in Toronto. Toronto's foreign born population is about 2.8 million so a similar list for Toronto would list numbers roughly half what is listed below.

Some immigrant numbers have surged over the last decade: China, India, Philippines, Poland, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, and Russia most definitely.

5,000 or more

1. United Kingdom 614,610
2. China 345,520
3. India 322,215
4. Italy 318,095
5. United States 258,420
6. Hong Kong 240,045
7. Philippines 239,160
8. Poland 181,810
9. Germany 177,675
10. Portugal 155,770

11. Vietnam 150,135
12. Jamaica 121,795
13. Netherlands 118,460
14. Sri Lanka 91,670
15. Guyana 84,160
16. Pakistan 83,235
17. South Korea 82,745
18. Greece 76,525
19. France 75,280
20. Iran 75,000

21. Taiwan 70,615
22. Lebanon 68,510
23. Yugoslavia 65,300
24. Trinidad and Tobago 65,145
25. Romania 61,330
26. Haiti 53,905
27. Ukraine 52,990
28. Russia 50,820
29. Hungary 50,720
30. Mexico 42,740

31. Croatia 39,635
32. El Salvador 39,200
33. South Africa 37,305
34. Egypt 36,795
35. Iraq 26,655
36. Japan 26,255
37. Ireland 26,210
38. Bosnia and Herzegovina 26,195
39. Morocco 25,975
40. Chile 25,210

41. Fiji 22,770
42. Afghanistan 22,575
43. Bangladesh 22,525
44. Austria 22,375
45. Malaysia 21,485
46. Switzerland 20,820
47. Algeria 20,770
48. Kenya 20,645
49. Belgium 20,405
50. Somalia 20,340

51. Tanzania 19,865
52. Cambodia 18,965
53. Australia 18,910
54. Denmark 18,145
55. Colombia 18,115
56. Peru 18,105
57. Turkey 17,775
58. Ghana 16,985
59. Israel 16,785
60. Czech Republic 16,465

61. Syria 15,980
62. Barbados 15,005
63. Ethiopia 14,345
64. Laos 14,315
65. Finland 14,285
66. Guatemala 14,095
67. Argentina 13,830
68. Former Czechoslovakia 13,385
69. Brazil 13,455
70. Ecuador 11,370

71. Uganda 11,030
72. Slovakia 10,720
73. Spain 10,655
74. Indonesia 10,455
75. Nigeria 10,425
76. Democratic Republic of the Congo 10,030
77. Saudi Arabia 9,935
78. Singapore 9,635
79. Kuwait 9,605
80. Bulgaria 9,540

81. Nicaragua 9,535
82. New Zealand 9,475
83. Malta 9,470
84. Slovenia 9,370
85. Grenada 8,975
86. St. Vincent and the Grenadines 8,835
87. Thailand 8,770
88. Venezuela 8,035
89. Latvia 7,725
90. Sweden 7,540

91. Sudan 7,475
92. Macedonia 7,335
93. Lithuania 6,920
94. Macao 6,870
95. Mauritius 6,675
96. United Arab Emirates 6,580
97. Estonia 6,430
98. Norway 6,380
99. Uruguay 6,300
100. Albania 6,265

101. Former USSR 6,005
102. West Bank and Gaza 5,625
103. Tunisia 5,470
104. Cuba 5,320
105. Dominican Republic 5,155
106. Jordan 5,155
107. Paraguay 5,020

http://www.migrationinformation.org/...ydata/data.cfm

[isaidso]

1000 to 4,999

Eritrea 4,825
Honduras 4,505
Belaus 4,405
Brunei Darussalam 4,380
Cyprus 4,360
Other 4,165
Zimbabwe 4,090
Kazakhstan 3,815
Myanmar 3,760
St. Lucia 3,245
Dominica 2,825
Rwanda 2,660
Panama 2,520
Libya 2,505
Costa Rica 2,500
St. Kitts and Nevis 2,495
Angola 2,470
Bolivia 2,420
Moldova 2,380
Burundi 2,345
Antigua and Barbuda 2,335
Cameroon 2,300
Zambia 2,255
Madagascar 1,950
Bermuda 1,930
Armenia 1,845
Senegal 1,815
Cote d'Ivoire 1,740
Uzbekistan 1,520
Belize 1,395
Bahrain 1,340
Guinea 1,335
Bahamas 1,285
Nepal 1,145
Qatar 1,100
Azerbaijan 1,085
Yemen 1,060
Seychelles 1,045
Sierra Leone 1,020

[isaidso]

Under 1,000

Mozambique 890
Mali 840
Suriname 840
Georgia 780
Togo 750
Liberia 685
Chad 620
Montserrat 615
Aruba 605
Kyrgyzstan 605
Oman 560
Netherlands Antilles 535
Luxembourg 530
Djibouti 500
Iceland 450
Gabon 430
Benin 405
Malawi 395
St. Pierre and Miquelon 375
Guadeloupe 350
Burkina Faso 325
Namibia 305
Papua New Guinea 300
Martinique 290
Congo 285
Puerto Rico 260
Gibraltar 255
Gambia 235
Niger 205
Botswana 190
Central African Republic 175
Swaziland 165
Mauritania 150
French Polynesia 145
Anguilla 140
Mongolia 130
Tajikistan 115
New Caledonia 115
Turkmenistan 110
North Korea 110
Monaco 110
Tonga 105
Lesotho 95
Cayman Islands 90
Reunion 65
Greenland 65
Samoa 65
Guam 60
Liechtenstein 55
Guinea-Bissau 50
French Guiana 50
British Virgin Islands 45

[Sarcasticity]

Originally Posted by isaidso

I spent my first 11 years in London and lived there as an adult briefly. I've only been to New York as a tourist (4 times), and have been living in Toronto for the past 11 years.

Toronto handily beats London in % terms, but by a small margin in absolute terms. The data seems to back that up. Toronto also beats New York in % terms, but obviously not in absolute terms (2.8 million vs 5.4 million). As far as groups represented, you'll find every minority possible in all 3.

The diversity in Toronto is quite astounding and shocks people not familiar with the city: 53% foreign born not just in the city centre, but across the metropolitan area. New York and London are both below 30% by that metric.

I guess I find NYC to be more diverse (no bias, I'm not even from here) is that it already had the history of massive immigration and the people I see are probably first generation immigrants, hence they don't really count as foreign born

It's interesting to know that even in the Metro area, Toronto is above 53%. Mind showing me a trajectory of Toronto? I'm interested to see when the percentage of immigrants in the population hit the 50 percentile. I have many relatives and friends in Toronto and Mississauga and my partner is from Toronto as well so I'm quite aware of the presence of Filipinos there

[intervention]

This might help a smidge:

[bayviews]

Originally Posted by isaidso

I couldn't find stats just for Toronto, but found 10 year old data for Canada's foreign born population by nation of origin. This is 2001 data for all of Canada, or 5,647,126 foreign born. The number of foreign born in Canada has since jumped to about 6.7 million. It's safe to say that all of these groups would be present in Toronto. Toronto's foreign born population is about 2.8 million so a similar list for Toronto would list numbers roughly half what is listed below.

Talk about trying to compare Tiny Apples with Huge Beavers!

Imagine that a relatively compact, 8,000 square mile portion of the NY metropolitan area alone packs in roughly as many foreign-born immigrants as ALL of a HUGE, sprawling country like Canada, with something like what? 3.8 million square miles?

Truly Amazing!

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by bayviews

Talk about trying to compare Tiny Apples with Huge Beavers!

Imagine that a relatively compact, 8,000 square mile portion of the NY metropolitan area alone packs in roughly as many foreign-born immigrants as ALL of a HUGE, sprawling country like Canada, with something like what? 3.8 million square miles?

Truly Amazing!

You're blowing this way out of proportion. All I've done is provide some data. People can extract what ever conclusions they want. I suppose a 'thank you' for compiling it isn't forth coming? Cripes, some people are so ungrateful.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Sarcasticity

I guess I find NYC to be more diverse (no bias, I'm not even from here) is that it already had the history of massive immigration and the people I see are probably first generation immigrants, hence they don't really count as foreign born

It's interesting to know that even in the Metro area, Toronto is above 53%. Mind showing me a trajectory of Toronto? I'm interested to see when the percentage of immigrants in the population hit the 50 percentile. I have many relatives and friends in Toronto and Mississauga and my partner is from Toronto as well so I'm quite aware of the presence of Filipinos there

I spent many hours trying to find Toronto specific data, but with no luck. I believe the 50% mark was hit very recently. Btw, people have been coming to Toronto in large numbers as long as they've been going to New York. All north American cities are built on immigration. For example, the vast majority of Italians, Portuguese, Chinese, Jamaicans, etc. in Toronto do not count as foreign born either because they were born in Canada.

[bayviews]

Originally Posted by isaidso

You're blowing this way out of proportion. All I've done is provide some data. People can extract what ever conclusions they want. I suppose a 'thank you' for compiling it isn't forth coming? Cripes, some people are so ungrateful.

Actually, I do really do appreciate the data that you've provided on Canada's total FB population, thanks! For one, it shows something I wasn't aware of. And that is that the NYC metropolitan area alone has as large a foreign-born immigrant population as all of Canada!

[Sarcasticity]

Originally Posted by isaidso

I spent many hours trying to find Toronto specific data, but with no luck. I believe the 50% mark was hit very recently. Btw, people have been coming to Toronto in large numbers as long as they've been going to New York. All north American cities are built on immigration. For example, the vast majority of Italians, Portuguese, Chinese, Jamaicans, etc. in Toronto do not count as foreign born either because they were born in Canada.

Interesting! I did kinda assumed it was only till recently as I've never really heard of Toronto as being dominated by immigrants as say Vancouver - which is basically a haven for Asians. Its astonishing to know how fast the immigrants are coming in, but the rate will probably plateau in the future.

......Although I wouldn't say immigrants have been coming to Toronto in same large numbers and as long as NYC. I think that's kinda reaching there tbqh

[chicagogeorge]

Here is something that Chicago and Toronto definitely do not have in common

Chicago Called Most Corrupt City In Nation
February 14, 2012 12:28 PM

A former Chicago alderman turned political science professor/corruption fighter has found that Chicago is the most corrupt city in the country.

He cites data from the U.S. Department of Justice to prove his case. And, he says, Illinois is third-most corrupt state in the country

University of Illinois professor Dick Simpson estimates the cost of corruption at $500 million

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2012/02/...ity-in-nation/


And people wonder why the city can't grow it's population

[bayviews]

Originally Posted by Sarcasticity

......Although I wouldn't say immigrants have been coming to Toronto in same large numbers and as long as NYC. I think that's kinda reaching there tbqh

Obviously yeah. If such were so, assuming birthrates being the same, Toronto today would have a population as big as NYC!

[Kensingtonian]

He never said Toronto got the SAME large numbers as NYC. Do you guys really not understand the concept of proportions? Why do you keep comparing raw numbers? Toronto is way smaller than NY. It has a smaller denominator. You have to scale any numbers you compare between the two cities or the comparison is meaningless. And why do people keep talking about New York in a Chicago/Toronto thread?

[Northsider]

Originally Posted by Kensingtonian

And why do people keep talking about New York in a Chicago/Toronto thread?

Sometimes I feel non-chicagoans are more obsessed with NYC than chicagoans are.

...but I think it stemmed from a diversity comparison. Chicago sadly doesn't hold a candle to either of those cities.

[Sarcasticity]

Originally Posted by Kensingtonian

He never said Toronto got the SAME large numbers as NYC. Do you guys really not understand the concept of proportions? Why do you keep comparing raw numbers? Toronto is way smaller than NY. It has a smaller denominator. You have to scale any numbers you compare between the two cities or the comparison is meaningless. And why do people keep talking about New York in a Chicago/Toronto thread?

He did say immigrants were coming to Toronto in large numbers as long as they've been going to NYC. It's easy to misunderstand what was said.

[isaidso]

'Large' numbers doesn't imply the 'same' numbers as New York, it means 'large'. The point is that Toronto has those 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th generation citizens just like New York does. Large scale immigration to Toronto is NOT a recent phenomena.

It does get a little tiring when people don't read what's written. We've now spent half a page explaining something that was written in quite clear English and stating obvious things like data is just data.

Originally Posted by bayviews

Actually, I do really do appreciate the data that you've provided on Canada's total FB population, thanks! For one, it shows something I wasn't aware of. And that is that the NYC metropolitan area alone has as large a foreign-born immigrant population as all of Canada!

You're welcome, that's more like it. Data is there to be dissected. Btw, that data is 11 years old. The foreign born population in Canada is 6.7 million today, like I clearly stated. So no the NYC metropolitan area doesn't have as many as Canada. Can we get back to a more constructive dialogue now, please?

[ducus]

Everything is cheaper in Chicago than Toronto, from milk, food in general, public transport, except the taxes (gargbage, gas, etc.) and the net who are almost the same. We are talking about cities with different culture, immigrants, history etc.

[bayviews]

Originally Posted by isaidso

I spent many hours trying to find Toronto specific data, but with no luck. I believe...

Really?

I'm frankly amazed & astounded that all these years we've had some here making unlikely claims that Toronto's the worlds most diverse city.

When in fact, it turns out they had no data or stats that substatiated any of their claims.

[chicagogeorge]

Originally Posted by mhays

Are you assuming that the count is more accurate than the estimates? There's obviously very good evidence to the contrary.

Speaking of challenging estimates....

he 2010 census estimated Chicago lost about 181,000 African-Americans and about 53,000 whites. Meanwhile, the Latino population grew by about 25,000 and the Asian population went up more than 20,000. Overall, the city’s estimated poulation in 2010 was 2,695,598.

City workers used estimates of the occupancy rates of housing units in particular neighborhoods to come up with areas they believe the census numbers were low, according to a news release from the Emanuel administration.

Among the areas where the administration believes census workers missed the most Chicagoans are the North Side’s 32nd Ward, which stretches from the Ukrainian Village north to Roscoe Village. Also the 6th and 8th wards, which border each other on the South Side and include parts of the Chatham, Burnside, Calumet Heights and Park Manor neighborhoods.

The administration estimates the census missed as many as 2,350 Chicagoans, who, if counted, would bring in an extra $2.8 million per year in federal funding.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...census-results



Really? Really? The census missed a whopping 2,350 people in a city of 2.7 million. Is that all that City Hall can challenge? Maybe the 2010 census was more accurate than we thought.

Back in 1999 this article stated that the city claimed that almost 70,000 residents were missed in the 1990 census

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1...nitoring-board


and similar claims during the 2000 census
http://www.chicagotalks.org/2010/01/...n-2010-census/