Chicago and Toronto: Similarities and Differences

[isaidso]

What's the population of Chicago's central core? Is it increasing, stagnant, or declining?

Originally Posted by bayviews

Really?

I'm frankly amazed & astounded that all these years we've had some here making unlikely claims that Toronto's the worlds most diverse city.

When in fact, it turns out they had no data or stats that substatiated any of their claims.

Oh brother! Of course there's data... tons of it. Specific data meaning a break down for each nationality that's not more than 2 years old. That's what's hard to find. Do you have to take every sentence and twist it around to bash someone, their city, or country. You're officially insane or trying to be the most irritating person on the planet. You're obviously here just to troll and have zero interest in an adult discussion.

[Northsider]

Originally Posted by isaidso

What's the population of Chicago's central core? Is it increasing, stagnant, or declining?

Not sure how the Loop is defined for Census reasons, but ~30k. Pretty sure it's increasing massively. If not, it's becoming a way more thriving: student housing, condos and apartment developments, etc.

[intervention]

Here you go:

http://www.toronto.ca/quality_of_life/diversity.htm

[softee]

Most of the similarities between the two cities are confined to size and geographical location/layout, otherwise IMO the two cities are not that similar at all. In most other metrics, Toronto has more in common with London and New York than it does with Chicago.

[Nexis]

Originally Posted by Xusein

I honestly think the Census had major undercounting. Only 1,000 more people in Queens? Yeah right. There are so much immigrants living and working under the table in NYC that I think it might be feasible that there are 200k more people than the Census thinks there is.

Both Jersey City and Newark said they undercounted by at least 20-30,000....mostly in the dangerous neighborhoods...but even in the New Neighborhoods. Alot of High Rises are completely occupied....so for them to say Jersey City only added 7,000 people is a gross under estimate. Neighboring Hoboken added close to 15,000 , but they barely added any New apartments....

[nomarandlee]

Originally Posted by softee

Most of the similarities between the two cities are confined to size and geographical location/layout, otherwise IMO the two cities are not that similar at all. In most other metrics, Toronto has more in common with London and New York than it does with Chicago.

Of course it does. It's also up there with Tokyo and Paris don't forget. At least that is what everyone says. Wait, not everyone says that?

[nomarandlee]

Anyway, the idea that there is one metric to count diversity is a more then a little harebrained given that identity itself and perception of differentiation can change from person to person.

If one city or nation gets over 60% of its immigrants from 4 nations more divers then a nation that has 70% of its immigrants from over 8 nations? If one city draws particularly from one continent or world region (a'la Miami or Vancouver) at extremely high rate does that discount their diversity? What about cities that are mostly made up of second or third generation immigrants which. Do the assimilated (however that's determined) count as "ethnic" and adding to the diversity two or three generations on? Is it simply about having as small a majority group as possible? Are pairs of Indian or Chinese immigrants (which are rather diverse huge nations) who come from opposite end of their home nations really more alike then an a Irishman and Frenchman. Are the Frenchman or Irishman really adding the same level of diversity to a culturally European/North American city in the same way that an African, Indian, Arab does etc.

The idea that there is one metric to determine these questions so that city boosters can go around claiming a mythical title is nonsensical.

[nsbz777]

I think this can also apply to Chicago.

[The Urban Politician]

Originally Posted by Northsider

I don't forsee Chicago proper growing anytime soon. It'll be a long time before highrise construction really booms again. In the meantime we continue to lose families to the suburbs. We're pretty stagnant to be honest...and the suburbs are diversifying and growning more so than Chicago.

Paris has been shrinking since, the 1920's perhaps?

So yeah, Chicago may continue to shrink for quite a while, but that doesn't necessarily mean the city has to be unhealthy either.

[goonsta]

^ the difference is that Paris is completely built up. The North and NW sides in Chicago are, but the S and SW side haven't recovered. If the gentrification wave reaches these areas, Chicago will undoubtedly gain population. Would be even better if the crime and poverty situation improves and starts attracting the people who left.

Toronto's ethnic mix has a lot in common with NYC and London, but that's where the similarities end. NYC and London are global communication and finance centers with years of storied history, music and culture (centuries in London's case), and its own worldwide appeal. Toronto is still more provincial than both.

[softee]

Like NYC and London, Toronto is the largest city in its respective country and is home to the nation's national news networks, newspapers, magazines/publishing companies, and the bulk of its major arts and entertainment outlets, music industry, production companies - etc. etc. etc.

[nomarandlee]

Originally Posted by softee

Like NYC and London, Toronto is the largest city in its respective country and is home to the nation's national news networks, newspapers, magazines/publishing companies, and the bulk of its major arts and entertainment outlets, music industry, production companies - etc. etc. etc.

That description fits dozens and dozens of cities in the world. Buenos Aires, Mexico City, Cairo, Istanbul, Warsaw, Moscow, Seoul, etc. That doesn't make those cities in the same "league" as NYC, London, Tokyo, or even Paris.

The important metrics are things like population, city GDP, # of global 500 business, international trade volume, total airline passenger numbers, etc.

[softee]

Sorry, I couldn't give a hoot about those things when I think about what makes a city an interesting place to visit or live in. The things I mentioned are far more important to me when considering what I believe to be the most important factors in what makes certain cities around the world the dynamic, exciting and creative places they are.

By the way, I never said that Toronto was in the same league as NYC and London, I merely said that it shared those things I mentioned in common with those cities.

[prelude91]

Originally Posted by The Urban Politician

Paris has been shrinking since, the 1920's perhaps?

So yeah, Chicago may continue to shrink for quite a while, but that doesn't necessarily mean the city has to be unhealthy either.

Paris has been shrinking the same way Manhattan was, they were over crowded. Paris proper is roughly 60,000 people per square mile, it lost population because living conditions improved (same goes for Manhattan).

[Shawn]

Originally Posted by prelude91

Paris has been shrinking the same way Manhattan was, they were over crowded. Paris proper is roughly 60,000 people per square mile, it lost population because living conditions improved (same goes for Manhattan).

Improved living conditions are the end result, not the cause. I'm pretty certain the cause largely has to do with smaller family sizes. You've got parents with two or fewer kids living in units that used to house parents with 6+ kids. OECD Catholics just don't breed like we used to do

[chicagogeorge]

What about the North African immigrants? Wouldn't they be off-setting the smaller French families with their traditionally larger ones?

I'm not being sarcastic. This scenario actually caused growth for the city of Chicago between 1990-2000, thanks to Hispanic demographic boom. Today, Hispanics still have larger families, then most if not all other demographic groups, but more and more are bypassing the city of Chicago for the more favorable suburbs.


This is a fantastic exploration of Chicago and the 7 core counties in Illinois population and demographic trends
http://www.robparal.com/downloads/CC...dings_0511.pdf

[intervention]

Slide 2, of this slide deck is interesting!

http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2...file-45813.pdf

[isaidso]

Thanks for the link. It was a long, but interesting read.

One major difference between Chicago and Toronto is population density downtown. I wasn't sure what to include for downtown Chicago so I'll just post the data and let people draw their own conclusions. For comparison's sake, Manhattan population density is 70,951/sq mi.

Lincoln Park---Near North Side---Chicago Loop---Near South Side---Downtown Chicago
Land Area: 3.19 sq mi---2.72 sq mi---1.58 sq mi---1.75 sq mi---9.24 sq mi
Population (2010): 64,116---80,484---29,283---21,390---195,273
Density: 20,099/sq mi---29,589/sq mi---18,534/sq mi---12,223/sq mi---21,133/sq mi

Downtown Toronto (2006)
Land Area: 4.5 sq mi
Population (2006): 132,434
Density: 29,430/sq mi

Downtown Toronto (2011)
Land Area: 4.5 sq mi
Population (2011): 175,064
Density: 38,903/sq mi




http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1486697
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Loop
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan

[goonsta]

The only way to know downtown Chicago's population would have to be done by census tract, there too many industrial zones west of the Lake that aren't considered downtown. Lincoln Park is considered a neighborhood, and only a tiny portion of the South Loop is considered downtown. And Manhattan isn't downtown NYC either. This brings up that debate over at SSP about how to truly measure what a "downtown" is. The consensus was this: ""the part of a city that is dominated by commercial and institutional uses at a scale much greater than the surrounding neighborhoods, and in which there is a contiguous area where residential development blends seamlessly with regionally significant commercial, or does not exist at all"

The second part basically means that no matter how dense the Upper West Side of NYC is, its still a neighborhood. Having mostly residential side streets disqualifies an area of being a downtown. I think it fits the subjective definition.

[isaidso]

Are Lincoln Park, the Loop, and Near North Side census tracts? On wikipedia they had them labeled 'CA'. Is that census area?

Regardless of what is considered downtown, the densities speak for themselves. The Near North Side seems to be the densest part of Chicago's core and it's at 29,589 sq mi, Lincoln Park is 2nd, and the Loop 3rd.