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Old January 24th, 2012, 07:30 PM   #1
trainrover
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MISC | Ridership; overcrowding

I can't find any thread on this topic, so here goes.

I've been finding myself stunned by the lack of ridership apparent on video clips of American metro systems, even Washington DC's highly-used system reveals few passengers. Here in Montreal --and from experience riding the trains in Toronto and Vancouver-- there are many other passengers beside you yourself, especially more so lately. Our rush hours have finally crept up to Toronto's crunched-right-up-till-10AM. For such a tiny system, it amazes me that our ridership way surpasses Chicago's sprawling network.

I'm now reading stuff like platform edge doors being necessary, but I wonder if such a necessity is brough about by inflicting overcrowding on a given network (the topic of such doors/gates isn't on any Montreal agenda, BTW).

So I'm curious to learn what's crazy about the barmy ridership where you live, coz finding a seat on a metro at most times of the day here keeps becoming rarer and rarer, even into the nightime here
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Old January 24th, 2012, 08:11 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trainrover View Post
I can't find any thread on this topic, so here goes.

I've been finding myself stunned by the lack of ridership apparent on video clips of American metro systems, even Washington DC's highly-used system reveals few passengers. Here in Montreal --and from experience riding the trains in Toronto and Vancouver-- there are many other passengers beside you yourself, especially more so lately. Our rush hours have finally crept up to Toronto's crunched-right-up-till-10AM. For such a tiny system, it amazes me that our ridership way surpasses Chicago's sprawling network.

I'm now reading stuff like platform edge doors being necessary, but I wonder if such a necessity is brough about by inflicting overcrowding on a given network (the topic of such doors/gates isn't on any Montreal agenda, BTW).

So I'm curious to learn what's crazy about the barmy ridership where you live, coz finding a seat on a metro at most times of the day here keeps becoming rarer and rarer, even into the nightime here
New York's subway and commuter rails can get horrendously crowded especially on subway lines going in and through Manhattan. Oftentimes, you might have to wait for two trains before you can barely squeeze yourself onto one during rush hour. Commuter rail is a bit better in general but finding a seat is pretty difficult on peak trains.
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Old January 24th, 2012, 09:46 PM   #3
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Ridership per km as well as usage (ridership per population) are higher in New York (#38) than in Toronto (#46), according to Metrobits' world metro database, which represents professionally collected ridership data by an SSC user.
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Old January 24th, 2012, 10:02 PM   #4
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You're right, micro; I'd meant to write most American networks (mind you, back in the '80s, visiting Torontonians used to go on and on about our crowded trains, incredulous at how we Montrealers seldom flinched in our crush periods, sardine conditions).

Waiting for the following train here happens enough; for the third one, seldom. For years I suspected our not having enough trains, but the past couple of years have proven me wrong, since many additional ones have been brought into service (our younger fleet's 35 years old, where had the 'extras' been hiding?).
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Old January 24th, 2012, 10:15 PM   #5
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Maybe 91% of Seattle's transit is buses...I'm vaguely recalling 5% for light rail, 2% for commuter rail, and 2% for ferry walk-ons. Inner-city buses are underfunded and often woefully crowded at rush hours. Suburban buses within King County (our central 1.9 mil) are relatively overfunded, on the theory that all taxpayers should get their share, and are underused. Thankfully this is beginning to change (slowly) due to a new rule that allows service dollars to focus more on high-use areas.

Our starter light rail line doesn't have a ton of ridership, though it can get crammed sometimes at rush hour or for stadium events. It was built in lower-density areas and also without commuter parking except at one station. But the first extension, underway now, goes to our highest density residential area and then the University of Washington, and is expected to triple ridership despite being a fraction of the mileage, including a lot of added use of the existing stretch. Longer term, the city will grow up around the stations along the lower-density current route, aside from the 1/3 that's in industrial areas. The economy has pushed most of that back a few years. Also, the three spoke system that's currently funded will also have synergies that will make each station more useful.
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Old January 26th, 2012, 09:24 PM   #6
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More interested to find out, that on systems that normally crowded, how do people react when they spot vacant seats on the train. In Shanghai, people are certainly very impatient when they see seats in the train. This is particularly bad at terminal stations, when an empty train pulls into the station, people push and squeeze and scuffle each other to get into the train just to get a seat.
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Old January 27th, 2012, 02:58 AM   #7
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They used to be like that at Montreal's interchange Berri-UQAM. In the '80s, passengers waiting on the platform there crowded the opened train doors, making it difficult for those wanting to get off ... they used to run for the seats.

Funny you should ask that coz there was this elderly woman getting on the train there with luggage and stuff, stepping toward the empty seat beside me only to be duped by some overweight geezer who ran to it from the next farthest set of train doors, thereby snatching it right from under the woman's eyes: aside from the deplorable way men still treat women around this town, this was a flashback to the old days for me, because now waiting passengers on the platform for the most part stand aside of the opening doors.
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Old January 27th, 2012, 04:44 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trainrover View Post
I've been finding myself stunned by the lack of ridership apparent on video clips of American metro systems, even Washington DC's highly-used system reveals few passengers. Here in Montreal --and from experience riding the trains in Toronto and Vancouver-- there are many other passengers beside you yourself, especially more so lately. Our rush hours have finally crept up to Toronto's crunched-right-up-till-10AM. For such a tiny system, it amazes me that our ridership way surpasses Chicago's sprawling network.
The New York City subway is exceptionally crowded. You can find examples HERE and HERE.
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Old January 27th, 2012, 05:10 AM   #9
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That is becoming a serious problem in Manila's MRT Blue Line. The fact it uses a 3 car light rail tram, cannot handle the large volume of commuters.

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Old January 27th, 2012, 02:28 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ode of bund View Post
In Shanghai, people are certainly very impatient when they see seats in the train. This is particularly bad at terminal stations, when an empty train pulls into the station, people push and squeeze and scuffle each other to get into the train just to get a seat.
lol please don't remind me of all the Chinese trying to go THROUGH me-the-tourist-who-just-wants-to exit-the-damn-metro
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Old January 27th, 2012, 06:49 PM   #11
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I also made the mistake of arriving at East Nanjing Road station of Shanghai Metro Line 2 during rush hour. :S

Speaking of Shanghai, people on Ditiezu claim the 2011 figure shows its annual ridership exceeded 2.1 billion trips.

Here is a breakdown of monthly ridership. Unit is in 10,000 trips.
2011年上海地铁每月客流(万人次)
1月 16112.70
2月 13374.20
3月 18285.59
4月 17893.40
5月 18160.69
6月 16759.40
7月 18478.78
8月 18176.87
9月 18010.30
10月 18104.74
11月 18001.10
12月 18850.90
合计 210208.67
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Old May 28th, 2013, 02:00 AM   #12
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I was wondering what the busiest subway stations are by daily ridership. I suppose most of them are in Japan. I'm sure it's way down the list, but I'll start off with Toronto's busiest station: Bloor-Yonge.

Bloor-Yonge has 2 subway lines running through it and has daily ridership of 416,170. Our 2nd busiest is St. George. It also has 2 subway lines running through it and had daily ridership of 266,770.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...nd_RT_stations
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Old May 28th, 2013, 02:10 AM   #13
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São Paulo Subway (Metrô de São Paulo) is very crowded. More than 4 million people daily, 74 km of lines and 64 stations.

The Red Line (Linha 3 - Vermelha) is the worse, specially its east section: 22 km, 18 stations with a record of 1,468,935 handled in one day. It's really impossible to use it on the rush hour. I don't know how over 1 million people take this day after day.
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Old May 28th, 2013, 02:33 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
I was wondering what the busiest subway stations are by daily ridership. I suppose most of them are in Japan.
Supposedly it's Shinjuku station in Tokyo with its many subway and regional lines.
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Old May 28th, 2013, 02:40 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by micro View Post
Supposedly it's Shinjuku station in Tokyo with its many subway and regional lines.
I imagine almost all of the top 30 will be Japanese. Ok, so far we have:

Daily Ridership by Subway Station
Shinjuku Station, Tokyo: 3,640,000
Bloor-Yonge, Toronto: 416,170
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Old May 28th, 2013, 02:49 AM   #16
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How can one station handle 400,000 when the entire Toronto system handles 1 million people? Something is off.
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Old May 28th, 2013, 04:28 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri S Andrade View Post

How can one station handle 400,000 when the entire Toronto system handles 1 million people? Something is off.
If you look at the tiny Toronto subway system it becomes evident. Toronto has 4 lines, but the Sheppard Line and Scarborough RT are insignificant. The bulk of traffic travels on either the Yonge-University Line or the Bloor-Danforth Line.

Both of these lines pass through Bloor-Yonge station. To transfer from 1 line to the other you only have 3 stations where you can do that. Bloor-Yonge is, by far, the biggest of the 3. Everyone coming from the east or west going downtown will transfer at this station. They're planning to build another 'U' shaped line leaving the CBD to alleviate pressure on Bloor-Yonge station. It's bursting at the seams and can't handle any more traffic.

TTC subway map


Here's one of the platforms at Yonge-Bloor station during rush hour, a train arrives every 2-3 minutes:

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Last edited by isaidso; May 28th, 2013 at 04:50 AM.
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Old May 28th, 2013, 04:38 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by micro View Post
Supposedly it's Shinjuku station in Tokyo with its many subway and regional lines.
Shinjuku is the busiest general train station. It also double counts transfers between its different operators. The subway portion is:
212,024 + 262,688 + 130,800 = 605,512 (Marunouchi + Shinjuku + Ōedo Lines 2011 data) of course because the numbers are not independent variables so transfers are double counted. The best definite number I can coax out is Ikebukuro which is only served by Tokyo Metro clocking in at 470,284 but I think its entries and exits only so transfers in between the subway stations 3 lines are not counted. Then there is through operation stations on the Tokyo subway where inbound "commuter trains" unloading passengers add to the count... what? Should I even add that. I don't even...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri S Andrade View Post

How can one station handle 400,000 when the entire Toronto system handles 1 million people? Something is off.
Correct. The TTC double counts transfers. The methodology is the ridership of the Bloor Ridership + Yonge Ridership = Total ridership. Therefore a person which changes from the Bloor-Danforth line to the Yonge-University-Spadina Line or visa versa is counted twice and since Bloor-Yonge is one of the 2 major transfer stations in the network lots of transfers happen here further inflating the numbers. See here for raw data.

Long story short a list like that will never be complied as every system and even every station as its own way of counting people.

Last edited by saiho; May 28th, 2013 at 04:54 AM.
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Old May 28th, 2013, 04:45 AM   #19
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EDITING. I just saw your post. Yes, maybe for São Paulo, they just count people getting in and getting out of and Luz. In fact, the large majority of people just use those stations for transference, not as the arrival or departure. They are both located in very decadent areas of Downtown São Paulo.


Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
If you look at the tiny Toronto subway system it becomes evident. Toronto has 4 lines, but the Sheppard Line and Scarborough RT are insignificant. The bulk of traffic travels on either the Yonge-University Line or the Bloor-Danforth Line.

Both of these lines pass through Yonge-Bloor station. To transfer from 1 line to the other you only have 3 stations where you can do that. Yonge-Bloor is, by far, the biggest of the 3.
You see, and Luz are the two busiest stations of São Paulo's system. According to Wikipedia they handle just above 100,000 people daily each.

is the only intersection for the Blue and Red lines. Both handle daily about 2.5 million passengers. Luz, is the crossline between Blue and Yellow (2 million passengers combined) and is also the place for transference for/from two busy urban rail lines (CPTM). Those two stations are huge, but on the rush hour they're the hell on Earth. I don't know, but it seems they use different methodology of counting.

P.S. Toronto's "tiny" subway system is the size of São Paulo's.
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Old May 28th, 2013, 04:52 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
Here's one of the platforms at Yonge-Bloor station during rush hour:

Bloor-Yonge is busy but the TTC is so inefficient that all of a sudden its station crowds looks like Tokyo, Beijing or Hong Kong. Usually this situation in the picture only happens when there is a delay which always happens cause its the TTC. If the Hong Kong MTR or some Japanese railway company ran the TTC this would never show up.
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