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Old May 28th, 2013, 04:55 AM   #21
isaidso
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A train shows up every 2-3 minutes during rush hour and the platforms are still packed like sardines. How do you propose to move people faster? You can't have trains arrive more often than every 2-3 minutes.

If Hong Kong or Japanese railways have a secret, we'd sure like to know.
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Old May 28th, 2013, 05:12 AM   #22
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This is the only rail system in Toronto? Because for instance in Sao Paulo we have the Metro (75km) + Suburban Metro (CPTM), at 260km, so over 330km in total, in a unified free-transfer high-capacity, low-headway system. Many people don't know this because the CPTM heavy rail system is not called "Metro", and operates on conventional railroads converted to a metro standard (many new stations, no other rail service sharing tracks)


Lines 1 through 5 are the "Metro" and were built to be metros, mostly underground. Lines 7-12 were normal railroads that are now only used as a metro service.

That said, Sao Paulo remains probably the most overcrowded system in the world, especially since the transfer between the two rail systems was made free in 2000 and a half-fare discount was introduced with the bus system (15,000 buses operate in the ciy)


Images of overcrowding in Sao Paulo

Sé station (busiest):


Luz station





Brás station



Guaianazes station (East side)





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Old May 28th, 2013, 06:03 AM   #23
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Another one (Pinheiros station, transfer from underground Line 4 to superficial Line 9)

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Old May 28th, 2013, 06:56 AM   #24
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Of course there are also 7 commuter rail lines but they only carry about 180,000 passengers per day compared to over a million for the subway.
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Old May 28th, 2013, 07:06 AM   #25
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But the Toronto commuter service is like in the USA, i.e. essentially a completely separate system of scheduled trains that could never be considered a "metro", right?
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Old May 28th, 2013, 09:05 AM   #26
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Quote:
A train shows up every 2-3 minutes during rush hour and the platforms are still packed like sardines. How do you propose to move people faster? You can't have trains arrive more often than every 2-3 minutes.

If Hong Kong or Japanese railways have a secret, we'd sure like to know.
Looking at the pictures from Sao Paulo, the problem may not be the rolling stock or service intervals per se, but rather the design of the station- there may be inadequate number of exits from the platform area for passengers. Ideally you have exits (stairs and escalators) on both ends of the platform as well as in the middle, also that escalator in the pic looks entirely inadeqate for the volume of passengers using it. Another way to speed flow for terminal stations is to have separate platforms for loading and unloading (i.e a train pulls into a bay, doors on the right open to allow passengers off, then after an interval, the left side doors open to allow passengers to board.

As far as rolling stock design, more doors per side is better (four or even five), alternatively you make wider doors to speed passenger ingress/egress. All seats should be longitudinal to maximize standing space.

There, of course, may be cultural factors involved, societies that value order and following rules in general (especially the concept of queing) will tend to have better passenger flows in congested conditions. Otherwise, education through PR campaigns is key in getting riders to follow certain procedures to help remedy the situation.
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Old May 28th, 2013, 09:54 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mopc View Post
But the Toronto commuter service is like in the USA, i.e. essentially a completely separate system of scheduled trains that could never be considered a "metro", right?
Yes, the commuter rail is totally separate.
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Old May 28th, 2013, 10:40 AM   #28
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Those Sao Paulo pictures are crazy

The 10 busiest stations in Sydney (using 2011 data, the latest available) are:

1. Central (173,560 passengers per day)
2. Town Hall (162,480)
3. Wynyard (115,420)
4. Parramatta (66,540)
5. North Sydney (56,200)
6. Redfern (46,730)
7. Bondi Junction (42,200)
8. Strathfield (41,320)
9. Chatswood (39,380)
10. Martin Place (37,600)
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Old May 28th, 2013, 06:27 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k.k.jetcar View Post
Looking at the pictures from Sao Paulo, the problem may not be the rolling stock or service intervals per se, but rather the design of the station- there may be inadequate number of exits from the platform area for passengers. Ideally you have exits (stairs and escalators) on both ends of the platform as well as in the middle, also that escalator in the pic looks entirely inadeqate for the volume of passengers using it. Another way to speed flow for terminal stations is to have separate platforms for loading and unloading (i.e a train pulls into a bay, doors on the right open to allow passengers off, then after an interval, the left side doors open to allow passengers to board.
He was referring to Toronto's system but yes these are some of the secrets but some of Toronto's issues is the following ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by k.k.jetcar View Post
As far as rolling stock design, more doors per side is better (four or even five), alternatively you make wider doors to speed passenger ingress/egress.
the TTC has 4 sets of wide 3 stream doors per side so they did that right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by k.k.jetcar View Post
All seats should be longitudinal to maximize standing space.
Nope don't have that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by k.k.jetcar View Post
There, of course, may be cultural factors involved.
Possibly. As in North America people don't pack themselves into trains as tightly as East Asia but Torontonians tend to not want to pack themselves as tight as than say a New Yorker would.

I think the above 2 factors really affect capacity. Our trains in Toronto are 3.14m wide and 23m long in 6 car sets yet it only carries 1000 people per train. (1,100 for our new trains) A 6 car subway train in shanghai with a similar in car size (slightly narrower) can carry up to 2,480 people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
A train shows up every 2-3 minutes during rush hour and the platforms are still packed like sardines.
Also one important thing that was missed out is the punctuality of service. In in Hong Kong were trains are pretty much always on time. When they say a train is every 2 min its actually comes every 2 min but in Toronto when a delay happens Trains/hour drop when the headway is temporarily increased to say 5min due to a delay or something. Which has a knock effect on the entire line, further reducing capacity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
How do you propose to move people faster?
TTC capacity in the best case scenario which is using all fully loaded TR series with a headway of every 2 min.

1,100ppl/train * 30trains/hr = 33,000ppl/hr/direction (ideally actual is lower)

Hong Kong actually clocks in at over 80,000ppl/hr/direction. Granted HK has 8 car trains as opposed to 6 in Toronto but both system's cars are similarly sized. Yet one is a landslide higher than the other, clearly there is room for improvement. Seating arrangement and and train punctuality makes a difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
You can't have trains arrive more often than every 2-3 minutes.
The actual number of trains/hour the the TTC's Yonge line runs at is 24-27 trains/hour. In theory ATC (which the TTC is trying to implement) can push it to 40 trains per hour (AKA every 1 min and 30 sec) but I doubt the TTC can push it that far as at that point controlling dwell times at stations become an issue.

Last edited by saiho; May 28th, 2013 at 06:36 PM.
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Old May 29th, 2013, 04:31 AM   #30
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São Paulo's problem is very simple: too many people. Pics post by mopc show it very clearly.

We're talking about 4 million passengers distributed on 70 km of lines, in a city where there are residential districts with densities over 10,000 km², tens of kms away from Downtown and West Zone (where the bulk of jobs are).

The system is good, in every sense. What the city needs now is some redundancy to solve the overcrowding problem. Yellow Line added some redundancy on the Blue Line, but also brought more than 1 million new passengers into the system, completely nullifying the early gains.
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Old May 29th, 2013, 05:02 AM   #31
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Yes, which begs the question: why are there that many people using the system? I mean in the 1990s when the Metro was smaller and CPTM was a piece of sewage, the system was less overcrowded. The population of the metropolitan region did not increase much more than, what, 15% since 1998?

But in 1998 the metro transported 2.5 million (today: 4.3 million) and CPTM transported 1 million (today 2.7 million)

The main reasons were:

1 - CPTM system improvement.

2 - Free transfers between CPTM and Metro (starting in 2000/2001)

3 - Discount fee for transfers between bus and rail (around 2007)

4 - Metro expansion

5 - improved economic conditions/ more jobs
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Old May 29th, 2013, 05:18 AM   #32
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Meanwhile, São Paulo Metro Area's fleet (Cars, SUVs and Pickup trucks) skyrocketed: 5,375,062 in 2001 to 8,662,131 in 2010, a 61.2% growth. The population went from 20,279,627 (2000) to 22,433,448 (2010), a 10.6% growth only. As December of 2012, the fleet is already on 9,587,747 (10.7% growth over 2010) for a 22,772,664 population (2012).

More subway, more train, mores buses, more cars and everything seems more crowded than ever. Go figure.
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Old May 29th, 2013, 05:26 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k.k.jetcar View Post
Looking at the pictures from Sao Paulo, the problem may not be the rolling stock or service intervals per se, but rather the design of the station- there may be inadequate number of exits from the platform area for passengers. Ideally you have exits (stairs and escalators) on both ends of the platform as well as in the middle, also that escalator in the pic looks entirely inadeqate for the volume of passengers using it. Another way to speed flow for terminal stations is to have separate platforms for loading and unloading (i.e a train pulls into a bay, doors on the right open to allow passengers off, then after an interval, the left side doors open to allow passengers to board.
I used to have similar theories as well, but after careful analysis and listening to specialists I found that "inadequate access/exits/entrance to/from stations/platforms" is not the problem, actually, it's the solution.

If you allow uncontrolled, easy access to platforms, the platforms get overcrowded to the point that those on the edge may be pushed to the tracks. They actually artificially restrict passenger access between platforms in major transfer stations in Sao Paulo precisely to avoid that - although from the pictures you can see that platforms overcrowd anyway. More ease of access would cause people to spill over onto the tracks.


Quote:
As far as rolling stock design, more doors per side is better (four or even five), alternatively you make wider doors to speed passenger ingress/egress. All seats should be longitudinal to maximize standing space.
All of that is already a reaility in Sao Paulo's system, i.e. cars have four doors on each car/ each side and trainsets are 6-car (Metro) or 8-car (CPTM), with a capacitu of 1600 passengers/ 2000 passengers respectively, which maximized floor space for greater standing passenger capacity.
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Old May 29th, 2013, 09:07 PM   #34
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We seem to have the most overcrowded trains in South East Asia.

It's like EVERY HOUR here IS RUSH HOUR

Coincidentally, our other South East Asian neighbors are doing much much better than us =(
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Old May 29th, 2013, 11:59 PM   #35
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Pics or it didn't happen
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Old May 31st, 2013, 05:36 PM   #36
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I get anxious just by watching at those pictures, and I really mean it I couldn't ever possibly live in such places.
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Old May 31st, 2013, 06:12 PM   #37
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A terrible feedback loop mechanism that happens in overcrowding systems is that trains are further slowed down because of increased station dwelling time, which in turns reduces the timed capacity of trains.
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Old May 31st, 2013, 07:13 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mopc View Post
Pics or it didn't happen
Go back to Post 9!
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Old June 1st, 2013, 11:29 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
A terrible feedback loop mechanism that happens in overcrowding systems is that trains are further slowed down because of increased station dwelling time, which in turns reduces the timed capacity of trains.
That .
Imagine just try to exit from train ! and there aren't the "pushing officers" of Japan or China...furthermore the trains should surely approach stations at a reduced speed

There's no simple solution apart doubling lines and trains
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Old June 1st, 2013, 11:41 AM   #40
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Also in Venice we have some problems... not only in summer


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