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Old June 4th, 2013, 10:02 PM   #41
saiho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mopc View Post
I used to have similar theories as well, but after careful analysis and listening to specialists I found that "inadequate access/exits/entrance to/from stations/platforms" is not the problem, actually, it's the solution.

If you allow uncontrolled, easy access to platforms, the platforms get overcrowded to the point that those on the edge may be pushed to the tracks. They actually artificially restrict passenger access between platforms in major transfer stations in Sao Paulo precisely to avoid that - although from the pictures you can see that platforms overcrowd anyway. More ease of access would cause people to spill over onto the tracks.
In china they just use staff to physically restrict the number of people at all subway entrances and make the everything in the stations wide and large as possible. Because since the Daegu subway fire the Beijing subway has been very cautious on fire evacuation safety and speed.



But lines still look like this.

Line 1
Avg. = +1 million/day
Record = 1.6 million/day



Line 2
Avg. = +1 million/day
Record = 1.5 million/day



Line 4
Avg. = +1 million/day
Record = 1.4 million/day

+1 for PSD/PSG


Line 10 the new poster child for Beijing subway crowding displacing Line 1
Avg. = 1.5 million/day
Record = 1.7 million/day



Well there is always the bus...



the bus...



bus...



ORZ
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Old June 4th, 2013, 11:15 PM   #42
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Gee you have more lines with 1 million/day or more than Sao Paulo!

Here is Sao Paulo ridership per line:


Line 1 - 1,040,000
Line 2 - 515,000
Line 3 - 1,200,000
Line 4 - 710,000
Line 5 - 180,000
(800,000 in 2016)
Line 6 - does not exist yet
Line 7 - 400,000
Line 8 - 450,000
Line 9 - 490,000
Line 10 - 395,000
Line 11 - 600,000
Line 12 - 216,000

Line 13 - under construction
Line 14 - cancelled
Line 15 - under construction, expected to have 550,000/day
Line 16 - does not exist
Line 17 - under construction, expected to have 200,000/day
Line 18 - under construction, expected to have 200,000/day
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Old June 5th, 2013, 12:38 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mopc View Post
Gee you have more lines with 1 million/day or more than Sao Paulo!

Here is Sao Paulo ridership per line:


Line 1 - 1,040,000
Line 2 - 515,000
Line 3 - 1,200,000
Line 4 - 710,000
Line 5 - 180,000
(800,000 in 2016)
Line 6 - does not exist yet
Line 7 - 400,000
Line 8 - 450,000
Line 9 - 490,000
Line 10 - 395,000
Line 11 - 600,000
Line 12 - 216,000

Line 13 - under construction
Line 14 - cancelled
Line 15 - under construction, expected to have 550,000/day
Line 16 - does not exist
Line 17 - under construction, expected to have 200,000/day
Line 18 - under construction, expected to have 200,000/day
Just watch out cause Beijing's Lines 5, 6, and 13 will also break 1 million/day in the next 2 years or so.
Line 6 is a new line that opened 6 months ago and is reliving Line 1, ridership hovering at 500,000/day and growing rapidly.

Lines 5 and 13 are clocking in at +750,000 ppl per day ATM and have potential to break 1 million/day as beijing brings service to line 1/2/10 levels.

Last edited by saiho; June 5th, 2013 at 01:09 AM.
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Old June 5th, 2013, 03:11 AM   #44
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Here in Chicago the Red, Blue and Brown lines are normally over capacity during the morning and evening rush periods. From around 7am to 9:30pm and 4pm to 7pm. I ride every day and I would say at least once every 2 days or so I have to wait for multiple trains to come because they're very overcrowded. I have the most problems on the Red Line, both in the morning and evening. Summer is worse because you have so many tourists trying to cram on as well.

I honestly don't remember the last time I ever got a seat on the Red Line, regardless of if it was rush hour. Maybe at like 11am or 2pm you will find seats. Weekends have gotten much more busy here for some reason.

Rail rideship in the city has now passed its all time high from before WWII.
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Old June 6th, 2013, 02:59 PM   #45
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Quote:
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I was wondering what the busiest subway stations are by daily ridership. I suppose most of them are in Japan. I'm sure it's way down the list, but I'll start off with Toronto's busiest station: Bloor-Yonge.

Bloor-Yonge has 2 subway lines running through it and has daily ridership of 416,170. Our 2nd busiest is St. George. It also has 2 subway lines running through it and had daily ridership of 266,770.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...nd_RT_stations
And by ridership you mean people exiting and entering through the turnstiles, and not including those who transfer between the lines at the station? Looking at pictures, Bloor-Yonge looks underdimensioned for the task with narrow platforms and small entrances.
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Old June 6th, 2013, 03:34 PM   #46
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I think that the data for Bloor-Yonge include transfer and that some passengers are counted twice.
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Old June 6th, 2013, 05:15 PM   #47
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You can't have trains arrive more often than every 2-3 minutes.
Moscow's metro 90s on peak hours don't agrees with you.
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Old June 6th, 2013, 05:58 PM   #48
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Same for Paris.
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Old June 6th, 2013, 06:24 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minato ku View Post
I think that the data for Bloor-Yonge include transfer and that some passengers are counted twice.
Interesting, I didn't think companies bothered to count that due to the obvious difficulties.

What do you mean by counted twice? That one person on one trip is counted twice, or that one person taking two trips during a day is counted twice? The latter makes sense, since we're talking about capacity.
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Old June 6th, 2013, 06:57 PM   #50
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Counted twice because the data are given by line and not by station.
Infact there is nowhere written that Bloor-Yonge has 416,170 daily passengers in official stat.
It is combinaison of two figures.

Bloor-Yonge (1 YONGE Subway): 212,550
Bloor-Yonge (2 BLOOR-DANFORTH Subway): 203,620

So, I think that a passenger transfering from the Yonge line to the Bloor line is counted twice in the 416,170 number.

We have further clue that indicate this fact.
Quote:
This table shows the typical number of customer-trips made on each subway on an average weekday (in bold text), and the typical number of customers travelling to and from each station platform on an average weekday.
This is basicly the number of boarding and
http://www.ttc.ca/PDF/Transit_Planni...02011-2012.pdf
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Old June 6th, 2013, 07:15 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minato ku View Post
Counted twice because the data are given by line and not by station.
Infact there is nowhere written that Bloor-Yonge has 416,170 daily passengers in official stat.
It is combinaison of two figures.

Bloor-Yonge (1 YONGE Subway): 212,550
Bloor-Yonge (2 BLOOR-DANFORTH Subway): 203,620

So, I think that a passenger transfering from the Yonge line to the Bloor line is counted twice in the 416,170 number.

We have further clue that indicate this fact.

This is basicly the number of boarding and
http://www.ttc.ca/PDF/Transit_Planni...02011-2012.pdf
Yes as I said in the first page of this thread.
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Old June 8th, 2013, 10:39 AM   #52
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How do other transit agencies measure station usage for stations that serve more than one line?
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Old June 8th, 2013, 07:09 PM   #53
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I think without doubt two of the worst overcrowding in Tokyo are the Chuo Main Line between Takao and Shinjuku Stations (10-car E233 Series trains still can't cut it as it approaches Shinjuku during the morning rush!) and the Keihin-Tōhoku Line between Omiya and Yokohama Stations. Hopefully, with the opening of the Tōhoku Jūkan Line very soon, this will alleviate the Keihin-Tōhoku Line overcrowding problem, since trains from the Utsunomiya, Takasaki and Jōban Lines can now go past Ueno all the way to Yokohama.
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Old June 11th, 2013, 06:57 AM   #54
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Interesting about the pictures...., however, do each depict regularly conditions? Some of those look like they show the results of a train system failure.

Btw, the best frequency a train line can run, assuming only 2 tracks, is about 1:50. A tiny bit better than 2:00 minutes. I challenge anybody to say differently. 1:50 is equal to 38 trains per hour.

Thats the Tokyo Marnouchi line.
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Old June 11th, 2013, 10:30 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmfarley View Post
Interesting about the pictures...., however, do each depict regularly conditions? Some of those look like they show the results of a train system failure.

Btw, the best frequency a train line can run, assuming only 2 tracks, is about 1:50. A tiny bit better than 2:00 minutes. I challenge anybody to say differently. 1:50 is equal to 38 trains per hour.

Thats the Tokyo Marnouchi line.
In Moscow most of the lines feature 1:30 - 1:35 minutes for rush hour (2 tracks).
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Old June 11th, 2013, 07:51 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmfarley View Post
Interesting about the pictures...., however, do each depict regularly conditions? Some of those look like they show the results of a train system failure.

Btw, the best frequency a train line can run, assuming only 2 tracks, is about 1:50. A tiny bit better than 2:00 minutes. I challenge anybody to say differently. 1:50 is equal to 38 trains per hour.

Thats the Tokyo Marnouchi line.
Sao Paulo Line 3 has lower average headways during rush hour, around 1'20. I guess with the new CBTC train control system, to be operational in 2 years, intervals between trains may even drop when necessary.
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Old June 12th, 2013, 05:36 AM   #57
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Quote:
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Interesting about the pictures...., however, do each depict regularly conditions? Some of those look like they show the results of a train system failure.
Some stations in Beijing are like that. Thats why 41 stations in the Beijing subway network have queue lines built outside its entrances and try to control the amount of people entering the system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmfarley View Post
Btw, the best frequency a train line can run, assuming only 2 tracks, is about 1:50. A tiny bit better than 2:00 minutes. I challenge anybody to say differently. 1:50 is equal to 38 trains per hour.

Thats the Tokyo Marnouchi line.
Actually as other people have stated other systems avg. higher than that. I know from reading railway engineering texts that an avg. of 40 trains/hour (or every 90 sec) is the theoretical optimum maximum throughput for a 2 track metro system. Common textbook examples of such high avg frequencies achieved is the Moscow metro and the Paris metro. Tokyo is never really known for having for super frequent subways. Just known for super frequent commuter rail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mopc View Post
Sao Paulo Line 3 has lower average headways during rush hour, around 1'20. I guess with the new CBTC train control system, to be operational in 2 years, intervals between trains may even drop when necessary.
In theory you can not run at less than 90 secs avg. headway. It will make the line less efficient. Which is why I doubt it runs at a 80 sec headway consistently today. When a line approaches a 90 sec headway, train station dwell times becomes the bottleneck not the signaling system. A CBTC system can handle trains 30 sec apart nowadays. But the can you decelerate into every station load up on people and leave every station reliably every 30 sec? This is due to the fact that if a train is held up at a station longer than normal (someone blocking doors etc) it will hold up the trains behind it as each train's buffer in time and space is extremely small at 90 sec. This will lower overall capacity. Paris and Moscow are able to achieve an avg of 40 trains per hour comfortably due to special design done on the lines. Many of Paris' lines have rubber tires with increases friction coefficients so trains can accelerate and decelerate into stations faster. Moscow on the other hand tightly controls trains station dwells with clocks like these:


The clock shows 1:52, and this is how long people have waited for this train.


When the train leaves, the clock is reset to 0:00

so a train driver will try to leave each station when the timer says 1:30. I heard the system can and has consistently reached up to an avg of 50 trains/hour but Moscow is more of the exception than the rule.
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Old June 12th, 2013, 06:37 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmfarley View Post
the best frequency a train line can run, assuming only 2 tracks, is about 1:50. A tiny bit better than 2:00 minutes. I challenge anybody to say differently.




Montreal's headways were 90 seconds during rush hours before the advent of automatic operation in the mid-70s



Quote:
Originally Posted by saiho View Post
When a line approaches a 90 sec headway, train station dwell times becomes the bottleneck not the signaling system.


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Old June 12th, 2013, 06:51 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bolg View Post
Looking at pictures, Bloor-Yonge looks underdimensioned for the task with narrow platforms and small entrances.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Minato ku View Post
I think that the data for Bloor-Yonge include transfer and that some passengers are counted twice.
I agree with your suspicion. Regarding entrants and exiters there, seldom was there ever a queue at any one of the eight(?) turnstiles at the staffed one of its pair of entrances at that interchange station.

I doubt Toronto's planned downtown relief line would relieve the congestion on the awfully narrow island platform on the lower level. I think they need to eliminate one of those lower tracks there by boring a bypass track, extend the platform over its resultant void, and instead have the bypass track call at the next station to the west by 150 metres that happens to be two-levelled (four tracks, two island platforms). The lower level at the adjacent station hasn't been used for 40 years (except for American movies), an outcome itself stemming from a botched, cocked-up (Canadian) route-diagramming plan from the 1960s.
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Old June 12th, 2013, 07:32 AM   #60
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I have an easier time scoring a seat on the metro during rush hours than I do either between those peak periods or early weekday evenings ... also, the least congestion occurs daytime Saturdays.
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