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Old June 12th, 2013, 09:32 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minato ku View Post
Same for Paris.
Yes, but you've got tiny trains while we in Moscow have trains up to 155 m long and quite high speeds and acceleration. Wi that it is harder to maintain such high frequency.
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Old June 12th, 2013, 09:38 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minato ku View Post
Same for Paris.
Yes, but you've got tiny trains while we in Moscow have trains up to 155 m long and quite high speeds and acceleration. Wi that it is harder to maintain such high frequency


For the user who denies the fact that there may be intervals lower than 1:50.
I'll try to shoot some movies in Moscow during rush hour to show how crowded Moscow metro is and how frequently trains run.

In the morning you can easily see one train leaving the station very quickly (acceleration is as its best) and the following trains comes out right 10-15 seconds after the first disappears. The second trains stops some 60 seconds after the first car of the previous train entered the tunnel.
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Old June 13th, 2013, 10:44 AM   #63
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Here in Istanbul our metros are nice and empty compared to yours, as they as yet do not serve some vital connections (and in recent times frequently have to be cancelled because of the police spraying tear gas into them). Nonetheless, we have two rather overcrowded other means of transport: a tramline and the so-called metrobus.

(thanx to Arda )
Tram 1, running at frequent intervals through the city, transports on average 315,000 people per day. Some people claim that is a world record for a tram, anybody have an idea if that is so?

(thanx to Edil ARda/pbs.twimg.com )
The other rather horrid mode of transport is the metrobus, a bus line on a special lane on the city highway running with tight intervals. The metrobus has on average 750,000 passengers a day. Is that anywhere near a record for a bus line?
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Old June 13th, 2013, 04:56 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Baron Hirsch View Post
Tram 1, running at frequent intervals through the city, transports on average 315,000 people per day. Some people claim that is a world record for a tram, anybody have an idea if that is so?
possibly 315,000 ppl/day is a lot for a single tram line

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The other rather horrid mode of transport is the metrobus, a bus line on a special lane on the city highway running with tight intervals. The metrobus has on average 750,000 passengers a day. Is that anywhere near a record for a bus line?
The Guangzhou BRT Zhongshan Dadao Line avg. about 1 million / day.



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Old June 14th, 2013, 11:37 PM   #65
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That has become just like a common subway/rail line without attached cars.
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Old June 15th, 2013, 05:00 AM   #66
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More Sao Paulo, for fun


























trolleybus - not overcrowded but the traffic OMG! I left the bus and walked past it easily, enough to take pictures of it AFTER leaving it





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Old June 15th, 2013, 08:11 AM   #67
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Vancouver's SkyTrain runs every 90 seconds during rush hour and every 3 minutes all day.
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Old June 16th, 2013, 11:35 PM   #68
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More Guangzhou BRT











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Old July 31st, 2013, 03:51 AM   #69
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Recent viral video of overcrowding in the beijing subway, now the world knows.



Station is Xierqi, Interchange Station between Line 13 and Changping
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Old July 31st, 2013, 08:04 AM   #70
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Sao Paulo's new monorail lines will have capacity of up to 49,000 pphpd with 100 meter trains of standard 3 meter Metro widths running every 75 seconds.
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Old July 18th, 2014, 11:36 AM   #71
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I have to think that 40 trains per hour has to be the absolute maximum headway possible for a metro/rail rapid transit line. There are 60 minutes to an hour, and trains would arrive at a station every 1.5 minutes. Would this only apply to a section of track that is not shared by two or more lines or...?
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Old July 18th, 2014, 03:52 PM   #72
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I have to think that 40 trains per hour has to be the absolute maximum headway possible for a metro/rail rapid transit line. There are 60 minutes to an hour, and trains would arrive at a station every 1.5 minutes. Would this only apply to a section of track that is not shared by two or more lines or...?
No its just overall. If 2 lines share the same track then the max frequency of each line gets halved. Also there are examples of lines that achieve over 40 trains per hour but those are more like extreme cases.
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Old July 19th, 2014, 09:50 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim856796 View Post
I have to think that 40 trains per hour has to be the absolute maximum headway possible for a metro/rail rapid transit line. There are 60 minutes to an hour, and trains would arrive at a station every 1.5 minutes. Would this only apply to a section of track that is not shared by two or more lines or...?
Aren't they doing a 85-second wait on a certain line (I think it's line 13) in Paris though? That'd be 42 trains/hour.
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Old July 20th, 2014, 02:58 AM   #74
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Line 14, more exactly.
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Old July 20th, 2014, 04:26 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saiho View Post
Recent viral video of overcrowding in the beijing subway, now the world knows.



Station is Xierqi, Interchange Station between Line 13 and Changping


In these cases of extreme overcrowding in really big cities (So Paulo, Beijing), Spanish Solution stations and platform screen doors should be compulsory.

Personally, the worst Ive experienced is metro line 4 in Paris, notably the section Chtelet-Gare du Nord.
That was dangerous (and that was not Pariss worst, which are metro line 1 and RER A line, but metro lines 4 and 13 come right after those two).

But clearly So Paulo and Beijing go beyond that.

Another thing is that certainly, having double-decker trains is a need in these cases too (Paris RER A line proofs that right), as they can handle more passengers per train, and in these conditions, little to no handicapped people in their right minds will dare to use it in the rush hour.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Talk about overcrowding, some London Underground lines could really be subject matter here, Ive read about passengers having to let go up to five trains before being able to board, the Victoria, Piccadilly, Central, Northern and Waterloo & City lines being maybe the most extreme cases there.
But thats London, the oldest lines are from the mid-19th century, so you can only upgrade them by spending crazy amounts of money...
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Old July 20th, 2014, 05:12 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim856796 View Post
I have to think that 40 trains per hour has to be the absolute maximum headway possible for a metro/rail rapid transit line. There are 60 minutes to an hour, and trains would arrive at a station every 1.5 minutes. Would this only apply to a section of track that is not shared by two or more lines or...?
I don't think that would be a good "maximum headway" since there are even busier lines that have trains running every 75 seconds or better (I'm thinking of Tokyo in this case)... maybe up to 50 trains per hour would be essential for the commute services since you'll need to determine how packed those trains are and allow more commuters to travel at the same time. Another solution could be interlining rail and subway services (such as those found in Japan) so that commuters from the suburbs can be brought quickly to downtown areas without the need of changing trains (or paying extra fares in the process)... perhaps a most effective solution would be enhancing the traffic flow of trains moving around cities, such that train signals can be changed from red to green in just 60 seconds while allowing room for the next train to proceed safely.

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Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post


In these cases of extreme overcrowding in really big cities (So Paulo, Beijing), Spanish Solution stations and platform screen doors should be compulsory.

Personally, the worst Ive experienced is metro line 4 in Paris, notably the section Chtelet-Gare du Nord.
That was dangerous (and that was not Pariss worst, which are metro line 1 and RER A line, but metro lines 4 and 13 come right after those two).

But clearly So Paulo and Beijing go beyond that.

Another thing is that certainly, having double-decker trains is a need in these cases too (Paris RER A line proofs that right), as they can handle more passengers per train, and in these conditions, little to no handicapped people in their right minds will dare to use it in the rush hour.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Talk about overcrowding, some London Underground lines could really be subject matter here, Ive read about passengers having to let go up to five trains before being able to board, the Victoria, Piccadilly, Central, Northern and Waterloo & City lines being maybe the most extreme cases there.
But thats London, the oldest lines are from the mid-19th century, so you can only upgrade them by spending crazy amounts of money...
For London, how long are the longest trains, and are those Underground trains interoperable with the Overground as well so that those can operate in essentially one continuous service? I mean, if people have to wait up to five (!!!) trains before boarding, that means overcrowding can be so severe that if longer trains aren't a solution, then either a more efficient spacing system (using train signals) or bolstering service on the busiest portions of those lines can effectively address such issues. Perhaps coordinating some of the busier Underground lines with London Buses might also help as well by honoring Underground tickets so that passengers can choose how they want to commute (this reminds me of the Oyster card too)...

As for the Spanish solution and PSDs for Sao Paulo and Beijing, those are feasible solutions, but I think there needs to be more than just those.
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Old July 20th, 2014, 05:52 AM   #77
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For London, how long are the longest trains, and are those Underground trains interoperable with the Overground as well so that those can operate in essentially one continuous service?
Underground trains are usually 8-car, but Waterloo & City line trains are only 4-car.

Underground and Overground trains are not interoperable.
Overground trains are normal railway commuter trains.

They share tracks in two cases, though, the northern section of the Bakerloo line and the Watford DC Overground line share tracks between Queens Park and Harrow & Wealdstone, and also the District line and the Richmond to Willesden Junction Overground line share tracks between Gunnersbury and Richmond stations.

In one other case, the northern end of the Metropolitan line, Underground trains share tracks with commuter railways of the London Marylebone-Aylesbury line, I think that happens between Moor Park and Amersham.

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I mean, if people have to wait up to five (!!!) trains before boarding, that means overcrowding can be so severe that if longer trains aren't a solution, then either a more efficient spacing system (using train signals) or bolstering service on the busiest portions of those lines can effectively address such issues. Perhaps coordinating some of the busier Underground lines with London Buses might also help as well by honoring Underground tickets so that passengers can choose how they want to commute (this reminds me of the Oyster card too)...
The Oyster card is massively used in London, otherwise fares are really expensive.

Some London stations are actually closed or partly closed during the morning rush hour.
The Victoria line notably is very much saturated.

On the other hand, off-peak, the lines run normally and theres no overcrowding in normal conditions.

Anyway, in London there are some very important works going on that can help relieve the overcrowding: Crossrail, under construction, and theres also the plan for Crossrail 2. Crossrail and Crossrail 2 will be a sort of RER system for London.
That alone is supposed to relieve saturation in the Tube for more than 10%.

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As for the Spanish solution and PSDs for Sao Paulo and Beijing, those are feasible solutions, but I think there needs to be more than just those.
But Spanish solution platforms, with one island platform only for passengers alighting, and two side platforms only for passengers boarding, would direct much better the passenger flows, and the PSD would increase safety enormously. That would be of great use and relieve congestion to a certain degree if combined.

As for So Paulo, what that city desperately needs is more metro and commuter rail extensions, and not just by small bits.
There needs to be a massive plan, with massive openings and loads of state money being invested in it (and maybe private money too, but certainly not only private), otherwise that city will become unlivable.

Cant speak for Beijing myself.
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Old July 20th, 2014, 06:16 AM   #78
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Vancouver's new Canada Line subway system is only 2 subway cars long..........yes, that right, the stations are only 40 m long expandable to only 50m. The line is already over capacity running every 3 minutes and it's only 4 years old.

This is what happens when you build a rapid transit corridor for the Olympics and your only concern is making sure it opens on time and long term transit vision goes out the window.
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Old July 20th, 2014, 07:16 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Underground trains are usually 8-car, but Waterloo & City line trains are only 4-car.

Underground and Overground trains are not interoperable.
Overground trains are normal railway commuter trains.

They share tracks in two cases, though, the northern section of the Bakerloo line and the Watford DC Overground line share tracks between Queens Park and Harrow & Wealdstone, and also the District line and the Richmond to Willesden Junction Overground line share tracks between Gunnersbury and Richmond stations.

In one other case, the northern end of the Metropolitan line, Underground trains share tracks with commuter railways of the London Marylebone-Aylesbury line, I think that happens between Moor Park and Amersham.
Ah ok. Well, it seems that if London would like to explore interoperating trains to relieve congestion, then I think it could look to Tokyo and see how it's done so that more trains can effectively operate between surface rail, Overground, and Underground all at the same time. The next question, though, would be the power requirements for each train since I am not fully aware of the electrical configurations for the myriad of train lines operating around London since interoperation requires a common (if not operating in AC) electric circuit throughout the network.

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The Oyster card is massively used in London, otherwise fares are really expensive.

Some London stations are actually closed or partly closed during the morning rush hour.
The Victoria line notably is very much saturated.

On the other hand, off-peak, the lines run normally and theres no overcrowding in normal conditions.

Anyway, in London there are some very important works going on that can help relieve the overcrowding: Crossrail, under construction, and theres also the plan for Crossrail 2. Crossrail and Crossrail 2 will be a sort of RER system for London.
That alone is supposed to relieve saturation in the Tube for more than 10%.
I've heard of Crossrail and Crossrail 2... what train type/s are we looking at for both services once those start their operations? And it's interesting that some of the stations are partly closed during peak periods due to overcrowding... makes me lucky then that San Francisco does not have to close its stations due to overcrowding (although, during special events like New Year's Eve, BART trains operate in a skip-stop manner along Market Street, with Richmond- and Pittsburg-bound trains stopping at Civic Center and Montgomery, while Fremont- and Dublin-bound trains stop at Powell and Embarcadero).

Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
But Spanish solution platforms, with one island platform only for passengers alighting, and two side platforms only for passengers boarding, would direct much better the passenger flows, and the PSD would increase safety enormously. That would be of great use and relieve congestion to a certain degree if combined.

As for So Paulo, what that city desperately needs is more metro and commuter rail extensions, and not just by small bits.
There needs to be a massive plan, with massive openings and loads of state money being invested in it (and maybe private money too, but certainly not only private), otherwise that city will become unlivable.

Cant speak for Beijing myself.
The Spanish solution platforms, though, would use up even more of the valuable platform and station space than many already can (not to mention it can cause confusion for passengers using the system for the first time, if not quite often, to begin with). And that suggestion might be problematic, especially if we deal with multiple trains arriving at a same time (essentially as a pulse point), in which passengers switching trains can take some time and can cause issues if the train doors seem to be misaligned with one another when performing the transfer. However, PSDs would be of enormous help for those subway networks.
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Old July 20th, 2014, 11:16 AM   #80
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I have to think that 40 trains per hour has to be the absolute maximum headway possible for a metro/rail rapid transit line. There are 60 minutes to an hour, and trains would arrive at a station every 1.5 minutes. Would this only apply to a section of track that is not shared by two or more lines or...?
For a really long trains (like 200 m long trains) with steel wheels on steel rails, 40 tph is a practical limit, I suppose. When Moscow tried 38 tph, they failed to actually perform it, most of the time.
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