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Old July 20th, 2014, 07:00 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fieldsofdreams View Post
I don't think that would be a good "maximum headway" since there are even busier lines that have trains running every 75 seconds or better (I'm thinking of Tokyo in this case)... maybe up to 50 trains per hour would be essential for the commute services since you'll need to determine how packed those trains are and allow more commuters to travel at the same time.
Tokyo doesn't operate at 50 trains per hour consistently. Once again at these high frequencies acceleration/deceleration and station dwells are the bottlenecks. The most frequent line in Tokyo as far as I know is the Marunouchi Line operating @ 40 Trains per hour. (2 min per train)


Quote:
Originally Posted by fieldsofdreams View Post
As for the Spanish solution and PSDs for Sao Paulo and Beijing, those are feasible solutions, but I think there needs to be more than just those.
Yes, PSDs and Spanish solution just allow the stations to hold more people. The key is more or larger trains to do what a transport system is supposed to do, which move the people in the stations to where they want to go.
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Old July 20th, 2014, 08:17 PM   #82
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Ah ok. Well, it seems that if London would like to explore interoperating trains to relieve congestion, then I think it could look to Tokyo and see how it's done so that more trains can effectively operate between surface rail, Overground, and Underground all at the same time.
There are upgrades in signalling and rolling stock to improve the reliability of some lines.

An interesting thing is that the London Underground did, by extending one line (the Jubilee line), take one branch line from the old Bakerloo line, operating it as a single line with no branches.

That helped improve the reliability in both the then-new Jubilee line and the remaining Bakerloo line.

A split of the Northern line into two completely separate lines is also pursued.

As for interoperating Commuter rail, Overground and Underground... man, that would be complicated and very, very expensive.

And there are the Crossrail (1 and 2) and Thameslink projects. Anything that should happen in London in years to come is related to these three projects.

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Originally Posted by fieldsofdreams View Post
The next question, though, would be the power requirements for each train since I am not fully aware of the electrical configurations for the myriad of train lines operating around London since interoperation requires a common (if not operating in AC) electric circuit throughout the network.
It wouldnt be easy, and it definitely wouldnt be cheap.

Another problem, and not the smallest, is the difference of gauge between Tube Underground and railway lines (not sure about the difference between sub-surface Underground lines and railway lines).

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Originally Posted by fieldsofdreams View Post
I've heard of Crossrail and Crossrail 2... what train type/s are we looking at for both services once those start their operations?
10-car trains, allowing speeds of up to 160 km/h.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fieldsofdreams View Post
And it's interesting that some of the stations are partly closed during peak periods due to overcrowding... makes me lucky then that San Francisco does not have to close its stations due to overcrowding (although, during special events like New Year's Eve, BART trains operate in a skip-stop manner along Market Street, with Richmond- and Pittsburg-bound trains stopping at Civic Center and Montgomery, while Fremont- and Dublin-bound trains stop at Powell and Embarcadero).
People queuing at the entrance of Victoria Underground station, in London, during a partial closure:





In London, changing at Green Park station from the Piccadilly to the Victoria line during the rush hour. The passenger has to let one train go, as it was overcrowded:






In London, a journey in the rush hour in four videos, from Tooting Broadway (Northern line), to Victoria, changing at Stockwell (Northern line to Victoria line, and letting the first Victoria line train go), by Victoria the train is overcrowded. The passenger continued to Fulham on the District line, but there are no images of that:











More London. Canary Wharf station, on the Jubilee line, one of the busiest (and newest) London stations, during the evening rush hour (never as crazy as the morning rush hour). Despite having platform screen doors and big size platforms, the trains are still seriously overcrowded:





A TV report about overcrowing in London, which is visibly not as heavy as in Japan, but still is a serious problem (rant included ):







Quote:
Originally Posted by fieldsofdreams View Post
The Spanish solution platforms, though, would use up even more of the valuable platform and station space than many already can (not to mention it can cause confusion for passengers using the system for the first time, if not quite often, to begin with). And that suggestion might be problematic, especially if we deal with multiple trains arriving at a same time (essentially as a pulse point), in which passengers switching trains can take some time and can cause issues if the train doors seem to be misaligned with one another when performing the transfer. However, PSDs would be of enormous help for those subway networks.
Well, its obvious that Spanish solution stations dont work well with same-platform interchanges, but if properly designed, the flows can be directed much better, as the alighting and boarding flows can be totally separated.

Anyway, the crazy overcrowding images we saw show, more tan anything else, a badly designed, or not enough developed network.



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Originally Posted by saiho View Post
Yes, PSDs and Spanish solution just allow the stations to hold more people. The key is more or larger trains to do what a transport system is supposed to do, which move the people in the stations to where they want to go.
Or (many) more lines, which is whats desperately needed in the case of So Paulo.
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Old July 20th, 2014, 09:23 PM   #83
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Overcrowding in Paris.

Here we have two cases.

The first one, in three videos, a classic, overcrowding at Saint Lazare station, the busiest in France.

The Saint Lazare complex , which includes Saint Lazare main railway station (Sncf), Saint Lazare station for metro lines 3, 12, 13 and 14, Saint Augustin station for metro line 9, Havre-Caumartin station for metro lines 3 and 9, Opra stations for metro lines 3, 7 and 8, Auber station for RER A, and Haussmann-Saint Lazare station for RER E, gets horrible every single day during the rush hour.

On this video we can see the Saint Lazare metro line 13 platforms during the rush hour. Line 13 is one of the three busiest metro lines in Paris (the others being lines 1 and 4). Note that some stations have seen platform screen doors installed, to increase safety:





On this video (in French), passengers complain about line 13, one passenger telling hes got to let four trains go:









The second case is the overcrowding on the RER lines, notably during a disruption.

Here we can see Massy-Palaiseau station on the RER B, during disruption time, with some folks distributing leaflets of a popular campaign demanding an improvement of the RER B line:





7 PM, Chtelet-Les Halles station, RER B. Serious overcrowding, probably because of some disruption:





RER A, La Dfense station, one of the busiest. Normal situation on the rush hour:

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Old July 20th, 2014, 09:33 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saiho View Post
Tokyo doesn't operate at 50 trains per hour consistently. Once again at these high frequencies acceleration/deceleration and station dwells are the bottlenecks. The most frequent line in Tokyo as far as I know is the Marunouchi Line operating @ 40 Trains per hour. (2 min per train)
Most frequent metro line, not the most frequent line overall I don't believe. I think the Keio line operates more trains per hour, as do Tokyu lines, though I'll have to ask one of the Japanese to elaborate on that.
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Old November 29th, 2014, 02:16 PM   #85
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If the photos at post #3364 of the Sao Paulo Public Transport thread are any indication, then I'd imagine over 10,000 people occupying a metro station at one time.
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Old November 30th, 2014, 01:34 AM   #86
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Overcrowding in So Paulo (Metro and CPTM).


Oh, I was just about to post them here, you just read my mind...

Here you have them, no need to change thread.

Just as a reference, S station (So Paulo metro lines 1 and 3) gets, on average, 79,000 passengers per day, and is prepared to see up to 100,000 passengers a day (not counting passengers who change from line 1 to line 3!!!). Just c-r-a-z-y.

==================================================

Disruption or rush hour, the So Paulo metro and commuter trains are overcrowded.

Quote:
Article from 05 May 2012. Overcrowding remains.

Source for all pictures: UOL Notcias

Some station on what seems to be line 11-Coral:



50 pictures of the overcrowding in So Paulo


Line 4-Yellow. Pinheiros station on a bad day:


Source: Veja So Paulo


Source: vadebike.org



Lines 7-Ruby and 11-Coral. Luz station on a bad day:


Source: Band.com.br



Line 9-Emerald. Santo Amaro station. Don't like the overcrowding here? Well, it will get worse once the line 5-Lilac extension opens...


Source: UOL Noticias


Source: www.mobilize.org.br



Line 4-Yellow. Luz station on a bad day.


Source: viatrolebus.com.br



Line 3-Red. S station... just about every day. One of the most overcrowded stations on Earth.


Source: noticias.portalbraganca.com.br


Source: Folha de So Paulo


Source: veja.abril.com.br



Line 3-Red. Anhangaba station on a bad day. People cannot even enter the station.


Source: ultimosegundo.ig.com.br



Line 7-Ruby. Jaragu station on a bad day.


Source: ultimosegundo.ig.com.br


Line 4-Yellow. Paulista station.


Source: Dirio da CPTM



The corridor linking Paulista station on line 4-Yellow and Consolao station on line 2-Green is extremely overcrowded, one of the worst "hot spots" in the So Paulo system.



Source: viatrolebus.com.br


Source: Notcias UOL


Source: blogs.estadao.com.br



Line 2-Green. Paraso station. It will get a lot worse once the extensions of lines 5-Lilac, 6-Orange, 2-Green, 15-Silver and 17-Gold open.


Source: Notcias UOL



Line 9-Emerald on a bad day... or in the rush hour.


Source: veja.abril.com.br



Line 1-Blue. Luz station on a bad day.


Source: www.brasildefato.com.br



Line 2-Green. Ana Rosa station. It will get a lot worse once the extensions of lines 5-Lilac, 6-Orange, 2-Green, 15-Silver and 17-Gold open.


Source: Diario da CPTM



Line 1-Blue. S station.


Source: meutransporte.blogspot.com
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Old November 30th, 2014, 06:26 AM   #87
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LOL, people in holland always wine 'bout overcrowded trains, they should visit cities portrayed in this thread..
These stations are crowded.
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Old November 30th, 2014, 05:43 PM   #88
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A colleague of mine at work lived for more than 20 years in So Paulo.
He recently went back to visit, and had to endure the interchange at Paulista/Consolao in the rush hour.
He said it was really claustrophobic, he felt like a sardine...

I've had to endure metro line 4 in Paris and it was pretty bad, but the Paris overcrowding is Disney-like, compared to the So Paulo overcrowding...
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Old November 30th, 2014, 11:11 PM   #89
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Thats not "crowded", it's madness. I agre with Dooie, also people in Vienna complaining about crowds should visit some of the systems in this thread.
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Old December 1st, 2014, 12:14 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dooie_Amsterdammert View Post
LOL, people in holland always wine 'bout overcrowded trains, they should visit cities portrayed in this thread..
These stations are crowded.
In Warsaw we have some complements about crowds in M1 too, but I think it's not justifying serious overcrowding in So Paulo. I Think full subway is too expensive in many cases (not only construction, but exploitation too) and BRT, LRT or monorail, depending on the local circumstances, can be solution. So Paulo chose monorail, Warsaw chose tram many years ago.
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Old December 1st, 2014, 01:06 AM   #91
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Thats not "crowded", it's madness. I agre with Dooie, also people in Vienna complaining about crowds should visit some of the systems in this thread.
And btw, it will get much worse than it is now. When finished, So Paulo metro line 2 should carry 1.8 million passengers per day.

Now line 2 is not even the most overcrowded line, in fact it's the second "least" crowded metro line by now (the most crowded one now is line 3, which hit its record in 2008, with 1,468,935 people in one day and 1,3 on average, then there's line 1, which on average carries 1,1 million people per day, then line 4 with 745,000 people in one day in 2013, and then line 2 with "only" 428,056 people per day in 2008).

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In Warsaw we have some complements about crowds in M1 too, but I think it's not justifying serious overcrowding in So Paulo. I Think full subway is too expensive in many cases (not only construction, but exploitation too) and BRT, LRT or monorail, depending on the local circumstances, can be solution. So Paulo chose monorail, Warsaw chose tram many years ago.
So Paulo has chosen monorail, but only in three cases.
And I believe that each of the three cases will prove them wrong... unless they chose to install that now to avoid even more overcrowding in the current metro and commuter rail lines.

The problem in So Paulo is that they have let things get out of hand.

It is one of the ten biggest cities on Earth (the 8th), more than 20 million people live there, and its surface is about several times the size of Greater London.

But it only has:

-five metro lines (three of them still undergoing important extensions), plus three more metro lines being more or less planned (actually one of them should have started construction works by now, but yet again it's been delayed).

-six commuter rail lines that mostly act as metro lines, one of them currently being extended, plus a new seventh line under construction.

-two monorails under construction (one of them will open its first phase in two weeks), and a third monorail being planned.

-and that's all they have.


Not a lot for a city several times the size of London and with more than 20 million inhabitants, is it?

And if its network were much bigger, the overcrowding would/will be even worse until the network reached the size of Tokyo or similar, as road traffic in So Paulo is just so deeply hellish that even the most overcrowded metro and commuter trains on the planet (the So Paulo ones) are, to many people, much better than driving from one end of the city to the other, which can take hours.

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Old December 1st, 2014, 01:20 AM   #92
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And to think that some of my colleagues at work complain of the fact that they don't always find a seat in the tram when going to work...
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Old December 1st, 2014, 01:36 AM   #93
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Old December 1st, 2014, 01:49 AM   #94
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You can see how the station with an area of about 3000 square meters are people everywhere. They are much denser than the photo of Sao Paulo. I think here about 20 000 people. Judging by the fact that they are, the whole long tunnel from the station to the escalator too crowded with people. It has 10,000 people. I'm not talking about the interchange station. But there are still people. Can you imagine how many people are at the same time at this station?
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Old December 1st, 2014, 01:55 AM   #95
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The problem of So Paulo is not only the population (over 20 million people), but also the density of the urban tissue (about 8,000 inh./km).

Unlike New York and Paris with high densities in the core and less dense suburbs, in So Paulo, residential neighbourhoods and suburbs are very dense, therefore there are lots of people commuting from the eastern section to Downtown and western parts of the city where most of the jobs are.

Said that, So Paulo subway is far superior to the ones of New York and Paris. Extremely clean, large trains running every 2 minutes. Rather small, but a very good system that's now handling 4 million passengers over 74 km of lines.
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Old December 1st, 2014, 02:04 AM   #96
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You can see how the station with an area of about 3000 square meters are people everywhere. They are much denser than the photo of Sao Paulo. I think here about 20 000 people. Judging by the fact that they are, the whole long tunnel from the station to the escalator too crowded with people. It has 10,000 people. I'm not talking about the interchange station. But there are still people. Can you imagine how many people are at the same time at this station?
Yes, Moscow is definitely another case of bad overcrowding.
But the Moscow network is much bigger.
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Old December 1st, 2014, 02:10 AM   #97
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The problem of So Paulo is not only the population (over 20 million people), but also the density of the urban tissue (about 8,000 inh./km).

Unlike New York and Paris with high densities in the core and less dense suburbs, in So Paulo, residential neighbourhoods and suburbs are very dense, therefore there are lots of people commuting from the eastern section to Downtown and western parts of the city where most of the jobs are.
Not just the Eastern section...

But East So Paulo is where the mass transit systems (commuter rail, metro, tram, BRT, monorail... whatever) is less expanded, so the need there is terrible and the overcrowding, horrible as it is now, hides a HUGE amount of repressed demand, believe it or not.

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Said that, So Paulo subway is far superior to the ones of New York and Paris. Extremely clean, large trains running every 2 minutes. Rather small, but a very good system that's now handling 4 million passengers over 74 km of lines.
Correct, but if you ask me, I'd rather have a pigsty of a metro as long as it reached places like Cotia, Guarulhos, Santo Andr, and so on...
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Old December 1st, 2014, 03:01 AM   #98
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Well, So Paulo subway/railway systems are growing but Paris' are not getting any cleaner.
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Old December 1st, 2014, 03:29 AM   #99
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Though it's bigger and also growing, but it doesn't need it as much as So Paulo does, the extension of the Paris network was already huge 100 years ago...

Even though parts of it are inevitably overcrowded (not like in So Paulo or Moscow though, but very overcrowded in European terms).
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Old December 1st, 2014, 04:16 AM   #100
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Maybe sao paulo and other large cities should adopt to something like multiple core mixed-use centers instead of massive people transit every single day.

Thats a bit more economical, energy-effective & relaxing.

Don't get me wrong, cities like sao paulo still need better mass-transit solutions on short & longer distances, but using those @ max load every single day from early morning untill late at night is not the most enviromently-friendly nor effective manner of doing some useful things for their respective societies.

Sorry for the missing accents on different words, my phones' touchscreen keypad is lacking on that department
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