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Old December 1st, 2014, 04:23 AM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dooie_Amsterdammert View Post
Maybe sao paulo and other large cities should adopt to something like multiple core mixed-use centers instead of massive people transit every single day.

Thats a bit more economical, energy-effective & relaxing.
Sâo Paulo is a multiple core mixed-use city, it's just that it's huge.

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Don't get me wrong, cities like sao paulo still need better mass-transit solutions on short & longer distances, but using those @ max load every single day from early morning untill late at night is not the most enviromently-friendly nor effective manner of doing some useful things for their respective societies.
They are at it, it's only that they need time... and a government willing to spend the money where it is most needed (I mean money for strategic infrastructure development, not money for welfare, which is quite another chapter).
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Old December 1st, 2014, 06:16 AM   #102
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Sao Paulo needs some express commuter rail lines: mostly underground lines with just a few stations (connected to major transfer stations of subway and surface rail systems), separated by many km between each one. This wouldn't be terribly expensive to build (with a station every 6-9km, you can go for deep tunneling in between station and build ventilation on a different paradigm).
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Old December 1st, 2014, 06:47 AM   #103
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You know it will still take many years to see that, Sub.

Even the Jundiaí fast thing seems to not be starting anytime soon...

...and it wouldn't do much to relieve the overcrowding anyway.
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Old December 1st, 2014, 01:57 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri S Andrade View Post
Said that, São Paulo subway is far superior to the ones of New York and Paris. Extremely clean, large trains running every 2 minutes. Rather small, but a very good system that's now handling 4 million passengers over 74 km of lines.
74 km for this size city is definitely not enough. 3 times longer network would be sufficient.
If the money is the key problem, monorail can be some solution, since it's cheaper. But more heavy urban express lines also seem to be inevitable taking into consideration São Paulo density and area.
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Old December 1st, 2014, 02:19 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Yuri S Andrade View Post

Well, São Paulo subway/railway systems are growing but Paris' are not getting any cleaner.
Less trolling please. I think you'll find that the Parisian metro has been improving its cleanliness for one thing, for another, avoid this kind of behaviour in this section thanks.
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Old December 1st, 2014, 03:47 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petr View Post
74 km for this size city is definitely not enough. 3 times longer network would be sufficient.
If the money is the key problem, monorail can be some solution, since it's cheaper. But more heavy urban express lines also seem to be inevitable taking into consideration São Paulo density and area.
Railway system counts 270 km. So, in fact, the metro area counts on 330 km of subway/railway, carrying together 7 million passengers/day. Still small, but not that small. São Paulo bus system is huge, supporting the mass transit operations.


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Less trolling please. I think you'll find that the Parisian metro has been improving its cleanliness for one thing, for another, avoid this kind of behaviour in this section thanks.
Where's the trolling, please?

Paris subway is indeed very dirty (to me it was a shock even though I was aware about it) and that's a problem as much as São Paulo's short system. I think people around here are mature enough to acknowledge those problems.
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Old December 1st, 2014, 03:52 PM   #107
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So maybe monorail is a good addition to existing network. But key question is how frequent are commuter trains.
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Old December 1st, 2014, 03:54 PM   #108
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Headways are bigger. That's why the 74 km of subway carries 4 million passengers while the 270 km of railways carries "only" 3 million.
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Old December 1st, 2014, 06:20 PM   #109
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Where's the trolling, please?

Paris subway is indeed very dirty (to me it was a shock even though I was aware about it) and that's a problem as much as São Paulo's short system. I think people around here are mature enough to acknowledge those problems.
You were trolling - you brought up these systems in an unrelated post by calling the Sao Paulo system vastly superior for no reason - that is not what this thread topic is for. I cannot comment on NYC, but I can on Paris. If you think Paris is bad, then a lot of the worlds systems are bad for cleanliness. You're lucky in Sao Paulo if it is that clean. No need to turn this thread into a mud-slinging contest. Plus since I'm mod of this section I'm telling you that is not what I want in this discussions here.

Also, if we're talking numbers - it is not 4 million, it's around 3,36 million on an average weekday for a total of 888 million per year. This was in 2013. Has it changed that much for 2014?

http://www.metro.sp.gov.br/metro/num...a/demanda.aspx
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Old December 1st, 2014, 08:32 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
You were trolling - you brought up these systems in an unrelated post by calling the Sao Paulo system vastly superior for no reason - that is not what this thread topic is for. I cannot comment on NYC, but I can on Paris. If you think Paris is bad, then a lot of the worlds systems are bad for cleanliness. You're lucky in Sao Paulo if it is that clean. No need to turn this thread into a mud-slinging contest. Plus since I'm mod of this section I'm telling you that is not what I want in this discussions here.
I brought New York and Paris to the discussion as both cities have cores with higher densities than São Paulo, but both urban areas are less dense overall, which helps to shed light on São Paulo overcrowding problem (very dense suburbs).

Again, I mentioned Paris due its urban formation and as I know their system personally. There's nothing about mud-slinging. I'm lucky to enjoy São Paulo's cleanliness (and I live in area very well-served by subway) while metropolitan Parisians are lucky to have this huge subway/railway system. I'm sorry Svartmetall, but I really feel we're taking this out of proportion. Every system has its ups and downs and I believe we're all mature enough to discuss them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
Also, if we're talking numbers - it is not 4 million, it's around 3,36 million on an average weekday for a total of 888 million per year. This was in 2013. Has it changed that much for 2014?

http://www.metro.sp.gov.br/metro/num...a/demanda.aspx
You're missing Line 4 - Yellow, which is part of the subway system (Metrô), but is now under private administration via concession (Consórcio Linha 4).
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Old December 1st, 2014, 08:53 PM   #111
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About this, is it only my impression, or Tokyo system is also overcrowded? They have a very comprehensive system and yet we see images of workers forcing passengers into the trains. And Moscow, which also has a big system.

That's why I'm a little bit pessimistic about getting rid of overcrowding in São Paulo, even with the new lines under construction. I guess when a city reaches this size, this problem is unavoidable. For one thing, more people will be dragged into the system, keeping the overcrowding on the same levels. On the other hand, São Paulo drivers will have a better life.
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Old December 1st, 2014, 09:28 PM   #112
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About this, is it only my impression, or Tokyo system is also overcrowded? They have a very comprehensive system and yet we see images of workers forcing passengers into the trains. And Moscow, which also has a big system.
Both are overcrowded.

The Tokyo case is special. It's the most populated urban area in the world, and there's little they can do to avoid overcrowding in the morning rush.
But unless I'm mistaken, overcrowding doesn't happen in all of the lines, just in certain strategic points. Besides, that network is just excellent.

The Moscow case is slightly different, Moscow is a smaller city than Tokyo, but it's a city that's still growing fast, and its network, although it has many lines and they are long, needs now more extensions to cope with the growth of the city. And parts of it are also getting inevitably overcrowded.

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That's why I'm a little bit pessimistic about getting rid of overcrowding in São Paulo, even with the new lines under construction.
This is something I'be been wanting to ask for some time now... is there really anybody in Sâo Paulo (or in the Sâo Paulo SSC forum) who actually believes that they will ever get rid of the overcrowding?

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I guess when a city reaches this size, this problem is unavoidable. For one thing, more people will be dragged into the system, keeping the overcrowding on the same levels. On the other hand, São Paulo drivers will have a better life.
I think that the Sâo Paulo network desperately needs to grow, and not just a bit (btw, I'd rather expand the metro more than CPTM, if you ask me).

That said, after the extensions currently under construction or being planned are operating, overcrowding in Sâo Paulo will be even worse, since the network will have grown, but still far from being enough, and probably not reaching the overcrowding peak yet, excepting on some lines (or sections of lines, or individual stations).

Because the repressed demand is just enormous, probably the biggest on Earth, excepting maybe some Indian or Pakistani cities (about which I don't know much anyway, I'm not really into Asia). Or Cairo.

So this repressed demand will mean that when a new extension will be opened with the initial purpose of relieving a line that's currently severely overcrowded (for instance line 3-Red in Sâo Paulo, which is now the worst in overcrowding, and which is supposed to be relieved in a few years by line 2-Green at Penha station), the demand for the new extension that quits using line 3-Red will be instantly refilled by new users that until then refrained from using it because of the overcrowding, plus some more who didn't refrain but for whom line 3-Red was not what they needed (for time reasons, for instance, I'm thinking of short trips).

Meanwhile, the new extension of line 2-Green will be severely overcrowded from day 1, minute 1, second 1, because not only will it get the passengers who will stop using line 3-Red, but also loads of new passengers who will start using line 2-Green as it will be more convenient to them.

And in its turn, line 3-Red will also be more overcrowded with even more new passengers wanting to get to the new extension of line 2-Green who didn't use the metro until then, and who weren't afraid of the overcrowding but they just didn't use line 3-Red, as it was just not what they needed.

And for some time, the overcrowding will increase after each new extension, until the network reaches the size to be able to cope with the repressed demand, and that will take probably decades, unless a really massive investment plan took place.

Horrendous, I tell you. A downward spiral.

Only when the network reaches a given size, in which demand can be really met, overcrowding will slow down.

But some stations will remain forever overcrowded, no matter what. And I guess that you can imagine which ones of Sâo Paulo will always be overcrowded, but I'd probably also add a few others that currently aren't since they don't have any connections, or the stations or lines don't even exist yet, but in the future they will.

On the other hand, it is likely that a few other stations that are now very badly overcrowded might become normal stations in the end. Very busy, yes, but normal.
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Old December 1st, 2014, 09:58 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri S Andrade View Post
About this, is it only my impression, or Tokyo system is also overcrowded? They have a very comprehensive system and yet we see images of workers forcing passengers into the trains. And Moscow, which also has a big system.

That's why I'm a little bit pessimistic about getting rid of overcrowding in São Paulo, even with the new lines under construction. I guess when a city reaches this size, this problem is unavoidable. For one thing, more people will be dragged into the system, keeping the overcrowding on the same levels. On the other hand, São Paulo drivers will have a better life.
Tokyo doesn't have pushers as much these days. With flexitime (flexible start times aimed at stretching the rush hour) as well as improved frequencies and lengths of trains as well as changes in work locations and work conditions, you can see that it's not as extreme as it used to be. It's more busy than ever overall, but generally it's not as bad as it could be. I've used a good portion of the network (including the busiest lines during rush hour) each time I have been to Tokyo. It's a fantastic and convenient network. It's definitely the gold standard for networks around the world in my opinion.

Also, don't worry about before. As long as we can keep things less needlessly comparative now.
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Old December 1st, 2014, 11:46 PM   #114
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@437.001:

A city that has high transfernumbers doesn't do a very good job at mixed-usage of cityland in my opinion.

Thusfar i've read mostly about massive transfers across that city from favelas/neighbourhoods designated to living towards workareas.

Truthfully, i've never been in any large metropolises other than London & Paris, but it doesn't seem to be done in A effective manner.

Not that anything in Holland is even close to level of effective mixed-use landuse that I define as being "effective".

For most highly used areas worldwide theres actually one goal:
Higher effectiveness of mixing uses.

Transport of most things is just not effective.
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Old December 2nd, 2014, 12:33 AM   #115
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And so? I mean, Sâo Paulo is just so big, that's unavoidable. Oh and geography counts very much too, Sâo Paulo is not very flat.

It already is a polycentric city, there's the Old Centre (Old Sâo Paulo), but there's also the New Centre (around Avenida Paulista), there's Brooklin (around Avenida Faria Lima and river Pinheiros), there is Santo André, Sâo Caetano, Sâo Bernardo, Osasco, Guarulhos...

Like in London or New York, there are main flows of people towards certain areas, not just only one area. Of course one or two tend to be more important than the others, but that's normal.
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Old December 2nd, 2014, 09:46 AM   #116
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Maybe some Sao Paolo peeps should move to other areas of the country like Rio, Brasilia or Curitiba.
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Old December 2nd, 2014, 12:49 PM   #117
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There is this flow of people leaving São Paulo capital and moving to mid-sized cities inside São Paulo state. That led to the formation of São Paulo macrometropolitan area, standing now at 32 million people:

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Figures for expanded areas:

GDP 2011 for São Paulo Macrometropolitan Area*



---------------------------------------------- GDP 2011 ------ Pop. 2011
São Paulo Macrometropolitan Area ------ 681,530,000,000 -- 31,701,724


GDP per capita: US$ 21,498. Comprising the southeast quarter of São Paulo state (63,072 km²), it's as 2011, the third largest GDP of Americas, just behind New York-Philadelphia-Hartford corridor and Southern California; overtopping Chicago-Milwaukee corridor, expanded Bay Area and Washington-Baltimore. The weak Brazilian real (2012-2013) will flatten the GDP of São Paulo region, but it'll probably be able to hold the 3rd place.

Definition: Mesorregião de Campinas, Mesorregião Macrometropolitana de São Paulo, Mesorregião Metropolitana de São Paulo, Mesorregião de Piracicaba, Mesorregião do Vale do Paraíba Paulista and Microrregião de Itanhaém
This new area will also need transit as today virtually all commutes are done by car. There are lots of projects to build fast trains to link all the urban clusters in the area, but none will be ready before the 2020's.
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Old December 3rd, 2014, 07:04 AM   #118
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It would probably be just as worse if you saw 10,000+ people try to cram into an elevated metro station. If that's the case, then I think underground metro stations may have more space than elevated or at-grade metro stations.
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