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Old April 10th, 2012, 11:39 PM   #241
ufonut
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aachener Mädelstraße View Post
Bollocks. Some 95% of 'her people' were expelled and deported because they were Germans. Danzig was rebuild by Poles, not by the Germans who inhabited the city until 1945.

(Just for the record, I don't defend any Nazi policies. They deported other ethnic groups themselves. I'm just saying that what you're stating is false. The ethnic germans who lived there for generations were deported with more than 250.000)
Actually very few were deported. Most Germans began escaping advancing Russian army on boats and cargo ships converted to accomodate as many people as possible. Lots of Baltic Germans who moved there during 1939-1942 were also ordered by the SS to move westwards either on trains or on ships. Gdansk was pretty much empty when the Russians entered the city.
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Old April 11th, 2012, 02:40 PM   #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ufonut View Post
Actually very few were deported. Most Germans began escaping advancing Russian army on boats and cargo ships converted to accomodate as many people as possible. Lots of Baltic Germans who moved there during 1939-1942 were also ordered by the SS to move westwards either on trains or on ships. Gdansk was pretty much empty when the Russians entered the city.
True, but the 'result' remains the same. The germans fled for the advancing Russian army (no wonder, what the Russians did with German civilians was beyond recognition. Rape of women between 8 and 80, mass slaughter, mutilations, looting, murder). More than two million ethnic Germans from die Ehemalige Ostgebiete, Sudetenland, Jugoslawien etc. were killed when the Russians fought their way into Germany and the Vertreibung afterwards.

(Interesting, now with the anniversary of 100 years titanic, is the fact that between january and april 1945, three shipwrecks took the lives of 13 times as much people as died on the titanic.)

Anyway, what Socrates1fan stated:

Quote:
A city was destroyed, and her people rebuilt the city's beauty. It was theirs to rebuild, and they did.
is false, after 1945 only 5% of its pre-war population remained.
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Old April 11th, 2012, 03:45 PM   #243
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It seems that Germans have very little knowledge about the expulsion of Poles in 19th-20th Century from Pomerania.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsi...les_by_Germany



Gdansk/Danzig was under Polish Crown until 1793 (and under Polish rule city was one of the wealthiest and most significant cities in Europe). After the partitions of Poland, many of Poles were expelled, Germanised or killed.

Map of The Kingdom of Poland and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania (1618-1667)


"The growth of the grain trade was indeed remarkable: in 1491-1492, an estimated 13,000 tons (12,000 metric tons) were exported, and that figure rose rapidly to 152,000 tons (138,000 metric tons) in 1563 and to a high figure of 272,000 tons (248,000 metric tons) in 1618."

"In 17th Century Gdansk was the largest and wealthiest town in Poland and one of the largest in Europe (in 1620 it had a population of 70,000). It attracted merchants, sailors, men of learning and artists from all over Europe. Among the Baltic towns only Copenhagen could compare with Gdansk. The fortifications that surrounded the town belonged to the strongest in Europe."

It's true that German was commonly spoken language, but even people like Johannes Hevelius considered themselves as being "civis Orbis Poloniae" ("citizen of the Polish world", http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Hevelius).

1575 - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...k_win_1575.PNG

1687 - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...84ska_1687.jpg

XVII Century - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...II_century.jpg

XVIII Century - http://archeowiesci.pl/wp-content/up...ańsku.jpg
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Old April 12th, 2012, 05:16 PM   #244
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aachener Mädelstraße View Post
is false, after 1945 only 5% of its pre-war population remained.
The city's people are these who have rebuilt it, not these who have destroyed it.
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Old April 12th, 2012, 05:52 PM   #245
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Stop spoiling this thread guys, stop this shyt.
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Old April 12th, 2012, 08:45 PM   #246
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Long Market 1-3 (Dlugi Targ 1-3)

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Old April 12th, 2012, 08:49 PM   #247
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Long Gardens (Dlugie Ogrody)

Before WW2


Now
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Old April 12th, 2012, 08:52 PM   #248
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Siennicki Bridge (Most Siennicki)

Before WW2


Today

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; April 12th, 2012 at 09:13 PM.
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Old April 12th, 2012, 09:28 PM   #249
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Gdansk 1956 (as you can see, city still in ruins...some parts of the Old Town already reconstructed)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gD_1vhhWlxE

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; April 12th, 2012 at 09:50 PM.
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Old April 12th, 2012, 10:15 PM   #250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ufonut View Post
Actually very few were deported. Most Germans began escaping advancing Russian army on boats and cargo ships converted to accomodate as many people as possible. (...)
Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
It seems that Germans have very little knowledge about the expulsion of Poles in 19th-20th Century from Pomerania.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsi...les_by_Germany

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...r%2C_Karte.jpg

(...)
Very good and valid points, guys. Germans are known to have quite selective memory in relation to their history.

Anyway, the result of border changes after WW2 looks to me as if more than 1000-year long Eastern expansion of Germans has been cancelled.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:We...th-10th_c..png

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Stop spoiling this thread guys, stop this shyt.
As mentioned above, unfortunately Germans appear to have selective memory and need to be reminded of some facts.
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Old April 12th, 2012, 11:41 PM   #251
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There nothing just in "stopping the German expansion" by ethnic cleansing. The forcible removal of the population that had here roots for centuries was a tragedy (even as some of the roots were Slavic - I believe the 30% of pre-war Danzig catholic population show how much of it had Kashubian origin even as only between 5 and 10% of Danzig inhabitants spoke Polish or Kashubian before the war).

However this tragedy was just a small part of a gigantic tragedy brought on this part of Europe by Nazi Germany. In fact the communist victors (mostly Russian but with Polish help) used the very methods Nazis first introduced in 1939 when Gdynia (and other annexed Polish territory) of Poles six years before.

Yes it was a gigantic tragedy. All the nations of Europe, including the Germans, were it victims. But the tragedy (including the Soviet presence in this part of Europe) was caused by the very war Hitler's Germany waged first against Poland and later against the Soviet Union.

Aachener Mädelstraße, don't blame the victims for the war Germany started. Expulsion of Germans from their eastern territories was just one of many tragedies caused by this mass madness of the German nation and not even the greatest one.
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Last edited by StaryOliwianin; April 12th, 2012 at 11:46 PM.
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Old April 13th, 2012, 02:19 AM   #252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StaryOliwianin View Post
There nothing just in "stopping the German expansion" by ethnic cleansing. The forcible removal of the population that had here roots for centuries was a tragedy (even as some of the roots were Slavic - I believe the 30% of pre-war Danzig catholic population show how much of it had Kashubian origin even as only between 5 and 10% of Danzig inhabitants spoke Polish or Kashubian before the war).

However this tragedy was just a small part of a gigantic tragedy brought on this part of Europe by Nazi Germany. In fact the communist victors (mostly Russian but with Polish help) used the very methods Nazis first introduced in 1939 when Gdynia (and other annexed Polish territory) of Poles six years before.

Yes it was a gigantic tragedy. All the nations of Europe, including the Germans, were it victims. But the tragedy (including the Soviet presence in this part of Europe) was caused by the very war Hitler's Germany waged first against Poland and later against the Soviet Union.

Aachener Mädelstraße, don't blame the victims for the war Germany started. Expulsion of Germans from their eastern territories was just one of many tragedies caused by this mass madness of the German nation and not even the greatest one.
Well written. Let's hope Europeans can enjoy Europe now without any stupid wars. The continent is too important to fail.
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Old April 13th, 2012, 08:19 AM   #253
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I agree rychlik, we all have our historic blind spots, but let's do move forward, challenges await and a greater future than anything those psychopaths Hitler and Stalin could ever have imagined is on our doorstep.

We Poles understandably have many complexes and anxieties stemming from the past, but despite their great success so do Germans and let's not forget the Russians, who despite their size have suffered some historic traumas of their own. In any case, this nasty past is not worth ruining future friendships and partnerships.
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Warsaw Post-War Reconstruction to Present
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Old April 13th, 2012, 11:15 AM   #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ja.centy View Post
Anyway, the result of border changes after WW2 looks to me as if more than 1000-year long Eastern expansion of Germans has been cancelled.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:We...th-10th_c..png
That 1000-year long Eastern expansion of Germans which was, of course, preceded by a similar Slavic push to the West.

Prior to which, the ethnic map of North Central Europe looked like this:

German tribes: 100 BC through 117AD
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germani.../wiki/Germania

Ptolemy's map of Roman era Germania
http://www.spiegel.de/international/...720513,00.html


Quote:
Originally Posted by ja.centy View Post
As mentioned above, unfortunately Germans appear to have selective memory and need to be reminded of some facts.
I would suggest, sir, that selective memory is not a uniquely German phenomenon.

Nor, I might add, is ethnic cleansing only wrong when it's initiated by "the bad guys".


Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanista1 View Post
In any case, this nasty past is not worth ruining future friendships and partnerships.
On this I think we can all agree

Last edited by Judge Roy Beam; April 13th, 2012 at 11:35 AM.
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Old April 13th, 2012, 11:28 AM   #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge Roy Beam View Post
Prior to which, the ethnic map of North Central Europe looked like this:

German tribes: 100 BC through 117AD
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germania
and even earlier there were dragons:

I have no idea what they have to do with the reconstruction of Gdańsk old city, but if we think together we may find out.
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Old April 13th, 2012, 12:40 PM   #256
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Gdansk Population:
Before 10th Century - ? (maybe few couples)
Before 12th Century - few hundred (wooden houses)
1300 - 2.000 (under Polish Crown)
1378 - 8.500 (under Teutonic Order)
1500 - 20.000 (under Polish Crown)
1620 - 70.000 (under Polish Crown)
1852 - 67.000 (under Prussian rule)

As you can see, Gdansk under Polish Crown had the highest population growth and between XV-XVIII Century (and of course after 1945) most of the city has been built (including Royal Way, Golden Gate, The Great Armoury, Townhouses, Neptune's Fountain, Green Gate and so on...). The same situation was with Elblag/Elbing (which under Polish Crown in 1594 had population of around 30.000 and under Prussian rule in 1861 had only 25.091).

For me, this discussion is just ridiculous. I've been in Londonderry few weeks ago and people from Ireland are talking the same absolute and utter bullsh.t about "Derry" city. City (rather little village) under Irish rule had maybe few hundred people (in wooden houses) and when British came, they've built city walls, houses, churches, etc. and the city grew and developed becoming one of the biggest on Irish island. For me Londonderry is a British city and Gdansk is a Polish city.

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; April 13th, 2012 at 01:49 PM.
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Old April 13th, 2012, 02:30 PM   #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uunxx View Post
and even earlier there were dragons:

I have no idea what they have to do with the reconstruction of Gdańsk old city, but if we think together we may find out.
Maybe the dinosaurs are not relevant but the first inhabitants of Europe, certainly should be.



We have to clone them using DNA from their fossilized bones and give them back their continent.



EDIT: By the way the descendants of the Germanic tribes which lived here in ancient time are at present not in Germany but rather in former Roman Empire they conquered. Does it mean we should cede Gdańsk to Italy and Spain, the two countries where the Goths finally settled?
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Old April 13th, 2012, 02:37 PM   #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Gdansk Population:
Before 10th Century - ? (maybe few couples)
Before 12th Century - few hundred (wooden houses)
1300 - 2.000 (under Polish Crown)
1378 - 8.500 (under Teutonic Order)
1500 - 20.000 (under Polish Crown)
1620 - 70.000 (under Polish Crown)
1852 - 67.000 (under Prussian rule)

As you can see, Gdansk under Polish Crown had the highest population growth and between XV-XVIII Century (and of course after 1945) most of the city has been built (including Royal Way, Golden Gate, The Great Armoury, Townhouses, Neptune's Fountain, Green Gate and so on...). The same situation was with Elblag/Elbing (which under Polish Crown in 1594 had population of around 30.000 and under Prussian rule in 1861 had only 25.091).

For me, this discussion is just ridiculous. I've been in Londonderry few weeks ago and people from Ireland are talking the same absolute and utter bullsh.t about "Derry" city. City (rather little village) under Irish rule had maybe few hundred people (in wooden houses) and when British came, they've built city walls, houses, churches, etc. and the city grew and developed becoming one of the biggest on Irish island. For me Londonderry is a British city and Gdansk is a Polish city.
It doesn't even matter, whatever might have been German Danzig was dead in 1945 because of its previous citizens' fault. The people who came to Gdańsk after war got only piles of rubble and they've made alive city of them. This makes them the only lawful citizens of the city.
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Old April 13th, 2012, 02:41 PM   #259
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They have mullets. Must be Proto-Germans!!!
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Old April 13th, 2012, 02:41 PM   #260
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True. And it should be added most of them came from territories Poland lost in the war it was the first victim of and from other cities ruined by the war Germany started, especially from Warsaw where Hitler ordered every house dynamited.

I believe we made our point and propose to end this OT.
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