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Old April 13th, 2012, 02:57 PM   #261
Aachener Mädelstraße
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StaryOliwianin View Post
There nothing just in "stopping the German expansion" by ethnic cleansing. The forcible removal of the population that had here roots for centuries was a tragedy (even as some of the roots were Slavic - I believe the 30% of pre-war Danzig catholic population show how much of it had Kashubian origin even as only between 5 and 10% of Danzig inhabitants spoke Polish or Kashubian before the war).

However this tragedy was just a small part of a gigantic tragedy brought on this part of Europe by Nazi Germany. In fact the communist victors (mostly Russian but with Polish help) used the very methods Nazis first introduced in 1939 when Gdynia (and other annexed Polish territory) of Poles six years before.

Yes it was a gigantic tragedy. All the nations of Europe, including the Germans, were it victims. But the tragedy (including the Soviet presence in this part of Europe) was caused by the very war Hitler's Germany waged first against Poland and later against the Soviet Union.

Aachener Mädelstraße, don't blame the victims for the war Germany started. Expulsion of Germans from their eastern territories was just one of many tragedies caused by this mass madness of the German nation and not even the greatest one.
Indeed. Expulsion and ethnic cleansing on both sides was dreadful and a real tragedy. The German population and the country itself (look it the thread 'Germany, then and now') suffered tremendously under Hitler and the Nazi regime. They were probably the biggest victims (after the Poles and the jews of course).

As you can see on this map (source:wikipedia-German language) almost one third of the pre-war German territory was taken away after the war. Cities like Breslau and Königsberg were German/Prussian for more than five hundred years. Don't understand me wrong. It's a done deal, but if you reject the expulsion of Poles by the nazis, you should do the same witt the expulsion of Germans behind the war, in my opinion.

Thanks to Hitler and Stalin. The biggest *ssholes in the history of the world..

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Old April 13th, 2012, 02:59 PM   #262
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True. And it should be added most of them came from territories Poland lost in the war it was the first victim of and from other cities ruined by the war Germany started, especially from Warsaw where Hitler ordered every house dynamited.

I believe we made our point and propose to end this OT.
Absolutely true.

Has anyone more pictures of the post-war reconstruction?
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Old April 13th, 2012, 03:06 PM   #263
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Thank you for your posts Aachener Mädelstraße

"Cities like Breslau and Königsberg were German/Prussian for more than five hundred years (??)."

Can you explain this?

I hope that you understand the difference between Royal Prussia (in Kingdom of Poland between 1454 and 1772-1793, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Prussia) or Duchy of Prussia (fief of Polish Crown between 1525 and 1657, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_Homage) and Germany. To be exact, Breslau/Wroclaw was under Prussian/German rule for 203 years (between 1742 and 1945, http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histori...ku_VIII_do_XXI).

I can only say that Lwow, Grodno, etc. were Polish for more than 400 years (Lwow was Polish between 1339-1772 and 1918-1939)...Unfortunately, we have to be able to deal with these border changes (look at map of Poland between 15-18th Century or between 1920-1939).



Area of Poland (1618) - 1,153,465 km2
Area of Poland (before WW2) - 389,720 km2
Area of Poland (after WW2) - 312,685 km2

Wroclaw/Breslau has been rebuilt by Poles from the rubble and Lwow (Polish pre-war capital of culture, now called Lviv in Ukraine) wasn't damaged by WW2.

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; April 13th, 2012 at 05:27 PM.
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Old April 14th, 2012, 01:05 AM   #264
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Unfinished buisness(only one side of street has been rebuild ):

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Gda%C5...7.73,,0,-12.61

In past:
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Old April 14th, 2012, 09:08 AM   #265
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Unfinished buisness(only one side of street has been rebuild ):

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Gda%C5...7.73,,0,-12.61
Nice job on the side that has been rebuilt however.

And I see that the old steps are still patiently awaiting the reconstructions across the street

But . . . will those reconstructions ever happen?

I thought I read earlier in this thread that the Venice Charter has precluded any more reconstructions in Gdansk. Or does that only apply to the waterfront?
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Old April 14th, 2012, 10:38 AM   #266
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Thank you for your posts Aachener Mädelstraße

"Cities like Breslau and Königsberg were German/Prussian for more than five hundred years (??)."

Can you explain this?
Is this so difficult to understand? Germany is a nation state only since the 19th century, that's why Germans have a different understanding of what "Germany" was before that time. It usually means that a region was part of the HRE and/or part of the German settlement area. It's a concept based on culture, not borders.
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Old April 14th, 2012, 06:44 PM   #267
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..

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Old April 14th, 2012, 06:47 PM   #268
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The city's people are these who have rebuilt it, not these who have destroyed it.
the nazis and the soviets destroyed it, not the german inhabitants.why would they destroy their own city by choice?!duh.had the city remained part of germany, it would've still been rebuilt accordingly
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Old April 14th, 2012, 06:54 PM   #269
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Post-war reconstruction of Gdańsk (Polish city on the Baltic coast)

Golden House (Złota kamienica)

Before WW2



1946



Now




Długie Pobrzeże

Before WW2



1946



Now

Hi, could you tell me where the colour photos come from?Cheers
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Old April 14th, 2012, 07:12 PM   #270
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the nazis and the soviets destroyed it, not the german inhabitants.why would they destroy their own city by choice?!duh.had the city remained part of germany, it would've still been rebuilt accordingly
"the city remained part of Germany"??
Before WW2 Danzig/Gdansk was free city (semi-autonomous city-state separated from the nation of Germany, and from Poland)...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_City_of_Danzig

You can view colour photos on this website: http://www.danzig-online.pl/color/a0.html or http://www.danzig-online.pl/color/1946.html

I don't think that Germany would rebuilt Danzig/Gdansk, because they didn't really rebuild any city after the war. Look at their capital city Berlin and capital of Poland - Warsaw for example (or compare cities like Chemnitz, Dortmund, Kassel and Gdansk, Poznan, Wroclaw).

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; April 14th, 2012 at 07:50 PM.
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Old April 14th, 2012, 07:50 PM   #271
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"the city remained part of Germany"??
Before WW2 Danzig/Gdansk was free city (semi-autonomous city-state separated from the nation of Germany, and from Poland)...http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_City_of_Danzig

You can view colour photos on this website: http://www.danzig-online.pl/color/a0.html or http://www.danzig-online.pl/color/1946.html

I don't think that Germany would rebuilt Danzig/Gdansk, because they didn't really rebuild any city after the war. Look at their capital city Berlin and capital of Poland - Warsaw for example (or compare cities like Chemnitz, Dortmund, Kassel and Gdansk, Poznan, Wroclaw).
thanks, yea i knew that.still, there's dresden, the best example
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Old April 14th, 2012, 07:52 PM   #272
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Commie-block inside medieval tower:


creepy...
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Old April 14th, 2012, 09:12 PM   #273
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Polska jest piękna!
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Old April 14th, 2012, 09:47 PM   #274
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thanks, yea i knew that.still, there's dresden, the best example
Dresden is the exception to the non-rebuilding rule in Germany. Part of the reason was East Germany was too poor to build it over. The rest was... Polish example. Yes, I've been told in Germany by several persons that rebuilding Dresden was... the "Polish school"

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Old April 15th, 2012, 01:30 AM   #275
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Commie-block inside medieval tower:


creepy...
Beyond creepy, more like defecating on one's own history
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Old April 15th, 2012, 04:04 PM   #276
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Neptune's Fountain (Fontanna Neptuna)

Before WW2


Now ()

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; April 17th, 2012 at 05:59 PM.
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Old April 15th, 2012, 04:32 PM   #277
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Grobla Street (Ulica Grobla)

During reconstruction (after WW2)


Now
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Old April 15th, 2012, 05:59 PM   #278
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Kaletnicza Street (Ulica Kaletnicza)

Before WW2


Now
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Old April 15th, 2012, 11:01 PM   #279
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It's nice to see that Germans have started large-scale reconstructions. Dresden, Rostock, Frankfurt and Berlin will be much nicer than Warsaw, Gdansk, Poznan or Wroclaw in the next few years. Poles, wake up. Modernism is ugly!!

Dresden


Frankfurt


Berlin


Rostock
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Old April 15th, 2012, 11:47 PM   #280
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Modernism is ugly!!
Modernism is ugly = shit is dirty?
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