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Old April 19th, 2012, 01:01 PM   #321
Karasek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rychlik View Post
By the way, besides Dresden, which other other countries/cities are rebuilding on a massive scale? And I mean like Warsaw "massive"? I don't mean like a few buildings or streets. Even Dresden won't be as big as what was achieved in Warsaw or Wroclaw. But who knows.
No other city will ever do this again, for a few simple reasons:
- Property questions. In Commie times no one owned anything, and entire old towns were leveled. Today every property is owned by someone who either doesn't want to sell, or doesn't want to build, or build only cheaply and so on.
- Costs. Warsaw was rebuilt brick by brick. No one could afford this.
- Political environment. Millions of these (often medieval) bricks, curbs, cobbles, doors, windows, altars, stalls etc. came from other places who were sacrificed for Warsaw (this includes Wroclaw). That's not possible in a democracy.
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Old April 19th, 2012, 03:57 PM   #322
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Not only projects. Buildings showed in this article already exist - they were opened a few weeks ago:

http://www.dziennik.stargard.pl/imag...71/pic_big.jpg
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Old April 19th, 2012, 04:02 PM   #323
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Millions of these (often medieval) bricks, curbs, cobbles, doors, windows, altars, stalls etc. came from other places who were sacrificed for Warsaw (this includes Wroclaw). That's not possible in a democracy.
No harm in looking the other way Just kidding.
We'll miss the good old days.
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Old April 19th, 2012, 05:58 PM   #324
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I wouldn't give a hoot about Article 15 of the Venice Charter, what is UNESCO going to do, send an army to tear apart restored buildings, are they going to invade Dresden and pull down the reconstructions. It was idiotic of Poland and even Germany to sign onto such a charter given the scale of destruction and the need to restore atleast some historic authenticity to our cities taken away by war - modernism or even contemporary arch just can't create a sense of place like styles that evolved over centuries. This is not to say that we should reconstruct every building as per historic records, it would suffice to rebuild landmarks, corner buildings and fill in the rest with contextual buildings styled according to a contemporary, restrained take on the vernacular like the buildings in Gdansk above - not bad at all.

"ARTICLE 15. Excavations should be carried out in accordance with scientific standards and the recommendation defining international principles to be applied in the case of archaeological excavation adopted by UNESCO in 1956. Ruins must be maintained and measures necessary for the permanent conservation and protection of architectural features and of objects discovered must be taken. Furthermore, every means must be taken to facilitate the understanding of the monument and to reveal it without ever distorting its meaning.

All reconstruction work should however be ruled out "a priori." Only anastylosis, that is to say, the reassembling of existing but dismembered parts can be permitted. The material used for integration should always be recognizable and its use should be the least that will ensure the conservation of a monument and the reinstatement of its form."

Anyway, excpetions are being made - Saski Palace is going to be rebuilt in Warsaw, and look what's planned in Berlin and Postdam. I hope more gets rebuilt in Gdansk, such a stunning city.
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Warsaw Post-War Reconstruction to Present
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Old April 20th, 2012, 04:52 AM   #325
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If you think about it, what do Americans or Canadians want to see when they travel to "Europe"? Simple: old things. It's what draws them in and I don't think it's pure luck that France and Italy are some of the most popular destinations for North American tourists. They've exploited this and have benefited tremendously from having most of their monuments still left standing. We don't have all of these old structures and palaces over here in North America.
Central Europe, once ravaged by war, is changing fast and cities that were once left in ruins are recreating themselves into hip modern destinations, while doing their best to respect and preserve as much of their history as possible. It's all about that special atmosphere and that can't be fabricated. It just happens.
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Old April 20th, 2012, 08:14 AM   #326
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I, as a European, don't care what Americans want to see in Europe. I live here, and i want to see our central european architectural heritage back. These reconstructions are first of all for citizens of reconstructed city, not for american tourists.

So, if in central Europe people want to see their cities reconstructed, they should be reconstructed. No matter, what Venice Charter says.
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Old April 20th, 2012, 08:44 AM   #327
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Well, the Americans also reconstruct their old towns:


In this case they rebuilt a kind of tourist replica of 19th century San Diego. It was possible because the modern downtown is not on the site of the original pueblo.
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Old April 20th, 2012, 12:27 PM   #328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. America View Post
I, as a European, don't care what Americans want to see in Europe. I live here, and i want to see our central european architectural heritage back. These reconstructions are first of all for citizens of reconstructed city, not for american tourists.

So, if in central Europe people want to see their cities reconstructed, they should be reconstructed. No matter, what Venice Charter says.
Excactly...

Poles want to remind themselves of the successes in Polish history, when Poland was the largest empire in Europe (Golden Age between 16-17th century), had difficult to overcome army (Polish hussars), and to cities such as Gdansk, Elblag, Krakow and Lwow immigrated Germans, Italians, Dutch or Brits to improve their quality of life.

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; April 20th, 2012 at 01:34 PM.
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Old April 20th, 2012, 07:58 PM   #329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. America View Post
I, as a European, don't care what Americans want to see in Europe. I live here, and i want to see our central european architectural heritage back. These reconstructions are first of all for citizens of reconstructed city, not for american tourists.

So, if in central Europe people want to see their cities reconstructed, they should be reconstructed. No matter, what Venice Charter says.
Me Gusta, seems legit to me
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Old May 1st, 2012, 05:31 PM   #330
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Gdansk 1939 (under Nazi rule):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...=X5v1X3RvVCU#!
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Old May 16th, 2012, 06:16 PM   #331
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Politechnika Gdanska

Photos by wiewior







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Old May 16th, 2012, 06:38 PM   #332
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A beautiful clock tower. I didn't expect that tower will be rebuilt. It's a pity that the cost of reconstruction was so high (around 250k EUR). Most likely, the lack of money is behind such a small amount of reconstructions in Gdansk.

Are there any plans of more reconstructions (for example tenement houses) in the Old Town area? From what I know, only around 20-25% of the Old Town was rebuilt after WW2...


Last edited by RS_UK-PL; May 16th, 2012 at 06:59 PM.
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Old May 16th, 2012, 07:29 PM   #333
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only around 20-25% of the Old Town was rebuilt after WW2...
Only? It seems like it is more.
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Old May 16th, 2012, 07:46 PM   #334
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Old Town (Stare Miasto, Altstadt), not Main Town (Główne Miasto, Rechtstadt).
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Old May 16th, 2012, 07:55 PM   #335
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Only? It seems like it is more.
Yes, the Old Town is much smaller than before WW2. I would say that around 20-25% was only rebuilt.

Now


Before WW2




Not rebuilt (just a few examples):




Last edited by RS_UK-PL; May 17th, 2012 at 03:50 PM.
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Old May 16th, 2012, 09:01 PM   #336
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Old Town (Stare Miasto, Altstadt), not Main Town (Główne Miasto, Rechtstadt).
By Old Town, I mean urban areas of Gdansk built before 18th Century (when Gdansk was a part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth).

For example:

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; May 16th, 2012 at 09:19 PM.
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Old May 16th, 2012, 10:40 PM   #337
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Gdansk is such a stunning city, all those gables, reconstructions and so on. Hope there will be more reconstructed and rebuild in the future, especially the Altstadt/Stare Miasto and the old warehouses

Love all those buildings that are rebuild in Poland and Germany, Lithuania and even Belarus (Old City Hall of Minsk et cetera). Keep going Europe
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Old May 16th, 2012, 11:51 PM   #338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
By Old Town, I mean urban areas of Gdansk built before 18th Century (when Gdansk was a part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth).
Oh, ok. I thought that you mean the "real" Old Town, becouse you posted photo of skyscrapers, which are there
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Old May 16th, 2012, 11:57 PM   #339
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Mistake

http://vianova.pl/images/stories/strony/gdansk_2.jpg

This one, has nothing in common with those marked areas, that's totally different part of the city
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Old May 17th, 2012, 12:15 AM   #340
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I have a map of Gdansk/Danzig from 1807: http://www.mapy.eksploracja.pl/pomorze/Danzig_1807.jpg

I would call the "Old Town" urban areas inside the walls:


Correct me if I'm wrong, but when I've been in Gdansk the last time I noticed that only Srodmiescie was reconstructed.

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; May 17th, 2012 at 03:19 PM.
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