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Old June 29th, 2012, 01:29 PM   #501
Mr. America
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But German too
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Old June 29th, 2012, 01:59 PM   #502
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Originally Posted by Tadek79 View Post

I would agree if you would say Polish, Flemish/Dutch and German gem destroyed by Nazis and Soviets and carefully restored by Poles.
Which buildings would you describe as distinctively Polish gems?
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Old June 29th, 2012, 02:27 PM   #503
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Which buildings would you describe as distinctively Polish gems?
Royal Chapel (built for Polish king John III Sobieski in 1678-1681 by Tylman Gamerski)


Upland Gate (decorated with Polish and Royal Prussia Coat of Arms in 1586, "Sapientissime fiunt quae pro Republica fiunt")


Artus Court (decorated with statues of Polish kings in 1617 by Abraham van den Blocke)


Golden House (again, decorated with statues of Polish kings between 1609-1617 by Abraham van den Blocke)


Neptune's Fountain (decorated with Polish eagles in 1634 by Jan Roggen)


Great Armoury (built in 1602-1605 by Anthonis van Obbergen - one of statues: Cossack with the head of Jan Podkowa sentenced to death in Lwow by Polish king Stefan Batory)


Golden statue of Polish king Sigismund II Augustus on the Town Hall tower (built in 1561, restored recently)


Green Gate built in 1568-1571 by Reiner van Amsterdam. The gate, as well as the broad tenement house, was built to host the Polish kings visiting the city. In one of the Green Gate's rooms is the office of the former President, Lech Walesa.


Straganiarska Gate built in 1481-1492 (Polish and Royal Prussia Coat of Arms)


There's much, much more Most of the Gdansk historic site have been built under Polish rule (15th-18th Century), when city used to be one of the richest port-cities in Northern Europe.

I'm also a numismatist, and the Gdansk Mint was making the best Polish coins between 15th-18th Century...



Examples of modern architecture (most beautiful stadium of Euro 2012 and WW2 Museum)



Last edited by Tadek79; July 5th, 2012 at 12:32 PM.
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Old June 29th, 2012, 02:27 PM   #504
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Which buildings would you describe as distinctively Polish gems?
The baroque catholic Royal Chapel, built outside the protestant Mariekirche especially for the visits of the Polish king.

However this discussion misses the point. If Kraków, the capital city of Poland, had early on a city council which official language was German (a true fact), you have accept the fact that most if not all cities in Poland were developed with the help of German speaking immigrants invited to Poland specially for that purpose.

However, saying that they all were German cities is as silly as claiming that cities in Poland were inhabited mostly by German gastareaiter population. Both views anachronistically project 19th or 20th ideas on a completely different era where your national identification depended more on who ruled upon you than which language you spoke.
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Old June 29th, 2012, 04:25 PM   #505
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The baroque catholic Royal Chapel, built outside the protestant Mariekirche especially for the visits of the Polish king.

However this discussion misses the point. If Kraków, the capital city of Poland, had early on a city council which official language was German (a true fact), you have accept the fact that most if not all cities in Poland were developed with the help of German speaking immigrants invited to Poland specially for that purpose.

However, saying that they all were German cities is as silly as claiming that cities in Poland were inhabited mostly by German gastareaiter population. Both views anachronistically project 19th or 20th ideas on a completely different era where your national identification depended more on who ruled upon you than which language you spoke.
Agreed... the historic ethnicity of central Europe is so complex and misunderstood. So many buildings were designed by imported architects (German, Dutch/Flemish, Italian) as well as local architects. Eastern Europe was a melting pot of different nationalities and languages all coexisting under one great power or another with borders shifting back and forth after each war.

My father's family originated from Alsace and the Rhein-Pfalz regions and migrated to the lower Danube regions called "Banat" (where the borders of Romania, Serbia and Hungary come together today). After the expulsion of the Turks in the 17th and 18th century, Austro-Hungarian rulers (especially Maria Theresia) offered free land to German immigrants. Similar situations played out in the Bukovina regions of central Europe, the Volga region of Russia (thanks to German born Empress Catherine the Great), and elsewhere.

One of the earliest migrations were the Transylvania Saxons, who occupied the hilltowns of the Carpathian Mountains since the 1180's (and were a major thorn in the side of Vlad Dracul in the 15th century).

Most of the Germans living in eastern Europe left before the end of WWII (when 13 million migrated back to Germany and Austria), or ended up in Stalin's gulags in Siberia from 1945-48 before the survivors were allowed to leave for Germany and Austria.

Also Germans weren't the only ethnic group that migrated into eastern central Europe... but they were the dominant foreigners.

Someone in an earlier post asked if the Upland Gate was going to have the equestrian statue in front of it rebuilt.... that seems hardly likely, since it was a statue of Kaiser Wilhelm II... an instigator of WWI.

And when it comes to assigning a building in Poland or Lithuania to a particular ethnic group... that too is very problematic... it could have been commissioned by a Polish merchant in collaboration with a Dutch architect and inhabited by Germans. When one looks at the late Renaissance buildings of Poland, they differ little from those of the low countries, or from the style of the Weser Renaissance in the German states. Ditto for Gothic. There is often no Polish or German or Dutch (or even Italian) style for many of these buildings... it was a co-mingling of central European styles and nationalities.
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Old June 29th, 2012, 05:16 PM   #506
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these discussions really strike at the complex nature and essence of what is "Polishness", something Poles inately understand, but non-Poles have some difficulty with without assigning arbitrary categories. But there it is, this complexity is something we celebrate without in any small part diluting our Polishness, the more complex, the more Polish this place is...and this is how we like it. I guess this is why we like the ideal of one Europe so much and we are among the biggest supporters of the EU.
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Old June 29th, 2012, 06:43 PM   #507
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tadek79 View Post
"all citizens of Vilnius were not Poles, but Polish-speaking Lithuanians"

No, you don't understand what meant Lithuanian in the II RP. Lithuanians were something like a Polish sub-ethnic group (similar to Masurians, Gorals, Kashubians), not different nationality. Poles and Lithuanians shared the same history, culture, language and religion.
Very interesting. Tell us more.
BTW, Poles restored this then German city really nicely in some parts
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Old June 29th, 2012, 07:30 PM   #508
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"Very interesting. Tell us more."

Here you go. During the 19th Century a Latin formula "gente Lithuanus, natione Polonus" (Lithuanian people, Polish nation) was commonly used among Lithuanians.

"Poles restored this then German city really nicely in some parts"

?
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Old June 29th, 2012, 07:56 PM   #509
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We'll drifting off-topic. But damn the grenades!

Lithuania versus Poland is something like Scotland versus England, except that our union started three centuries earlier. We fought each other a lot, had an union, and finally got tired of each other.

This is why the most famous Polish poem starts with "Lithuania, my fatherland". For the 19th century author Lithuania was part of the common Polish-Lithuanian state (our version of "Britain") confusingly also called Poland - but it had been historically divided into the Crown (Poland proper) and Lithuania. But at the time the country no longer existed. When Poland and Lithuania regained their independence (separately) in 1918, the problem of borders and even who should have the Lithuanian capital city divided us for good.

But now Scotland can go its own way in 2014 so the parallel will be complete.
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Old June 29th, 2012, 08:25 PM   #510
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanista1 View Post
these discussions really strike at the complex nature and essence of what is "Polishness", something Poles inately understand, but non-Poles have some difficulty with without assigning arbitrary categories.
This works the other way around too. Germans see Gdanzig first and foremost as a quasi-independent entity, a "Free and Hanseatic city" like others along the coast. To them the Polish overlordship means little, as the city was almost completely independent. In this view the examples Tadek79 offered here are no "Polish gems" but "Hanseatic gems", since they are mostly products of the Dutch Renaissance and show the links of the rich trading town to other regions of the Hanseatic circle. And the Polish insignias merely show the legal situation at that time, but they don't illustrate the reality inside the city (not many cities had their own armies or banned the king from entering the city for almost the entire year except for 3 days etc.).
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Old June 29th, 2012, 08:57 PM   #511
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tadek79 View Post
"Very interesting. Tell us more."

Here you go. During the 19th Century a Latin formula "gente Lithuanus, natione Polonus" (Lithuanian people, Polish nation) was commonly used among Lithuanians.
But the same, during the centuries there were a formula "Natione Polonus-gente Prussicus". I will troll a little bit for You to understand, that You were wrong in the same words, only changing "Lithuanian" to "Pole" and "Pole" to "German" :
"What meant Pole in the Holy Roman Empire, German Empire? Poles were something like a German sub-ethnic group (similar to Frisians, Saxons, Bavarians), not different nationality. Germans and Poles shared the same history, culture, language and religion." Silly, isn't it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tadek79 View Post
"Poles restored this then German city really nicely in some parts"

?
Why? If 30,9% Polish speaking population of Vilna in the year 1897, gives a right to call Vilnius before 1945 a "Polish" city, why denying, that 98% German speaking Danzig was German? What so "troll" about it??
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Old June 29th, 2012, 09:20 PM   #512
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Saint Mary's is such a giant church, one of the most impressive ones in Poland in my opinion. The small towers at the sides of the church, the windows et cetera. My question is, did they planned to build the tower much and much more higher then it's now?

PS: I think they should hang more bells in the tower, the tower has only two bells know while there is room for up to 7-10 bells....

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Old June 29th, 2012, 09:38 PM   #513
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Quote:
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This works the other way around too. Germans see Gdanzig first and foremost as a quasi-independent entity, a "Free and Hanseatic city" like others along the coast. To them the Polish overlordship means little, as the city was almost completely independent. In this view the examples Tadek79 offered here are no "Polish gems" but "Hanseatic gems", since they are mostly products of the Dutch Renaissance and show the links of the rich trading town to other regions of the Hanseatic circle. And the Polish insignias merely show the legal situation at that time, but they don't illustrate the reality inside the city (not many cities had their own armies or banned the king from entering the city for almost the entire year except for 3 days etc.).
I don't think you understand, as you seem to be (maybe?) twisting this definition of Polishness into an argument for its piece by piece dismemberment. All of Poland's cities and even the countryside were quite diverse and this is the nature of Polishness with Polish culture (especially when the state didn't exist) and statehood at its core, its a way of living together in peace, celebrating difference, diversity et al...it doesn't mean we should build walls and raise armies...then, we'll have the middle east here.

I don;'t think anyone really knows what the reality inside most European cities was centuries ago, how people viewed themselves before the emergence of extreme nationalism in the 19th century.

There were many city states in present day Italy too, Venice, very distinct, Bologna, Pisa etc, but they have become part of a complex Italian culture that is enriched by regional difference. Germans, tend to celebrate homogeniety more than diversity, although Berlin is certainly an exception...and maybe Berlin should be a separate city state.
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Old June 29th, 2012, 10:43 PM   #514
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Anyway, it is wonderful how Gdansk is being reconstructed, I would love to see it sometime in person! I was wondering how was the religious composition of Gdansk before the war? Was it a protestant or catholic city? If it was a protestant city where the churches converted to catholic ones after it got inhabited by catholic poles?
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Old June 29th, 2012, 11:45 PM   #515
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"I was wondering how was the religious composition of Gdansk before the war?"

In 1924, 54.7% of the population in Free City of Danzig was Protestant (220,731 persons, mostly Lutherans within the united old-Prussian church), 34.5% was Catholic (140,797 persons), and 2.4% Jewish (9,239 persons); furthermore, there were other Protestants such as 5,604 Mennonites, 1,934 Calvinists (Reformed), 1,093 Baptists, 410 Free Religionists, as well as 2,129 dissenters, 1,394 faithful of other religions and denominations and 664 irreligionists. The Jewish community grew from 2,717 in 1910 to 7,282 in 1923, and 10,448 in 1929, many of them immigrants from Poland and Russia.
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Old June 29th, 2012, 11:59 PM   #516
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tadek79 View Post
"all citizens of Vilnius were not Poles, but Polish-speaking Lithuanians"

No, you don't understand what meant Lithuanian in the II RP. Lithuanians were something like a Polish sub-ethnic group (similar to Masurians, Gorals, Kashubians), not different nationality. Poles and Lithuanians shared the same history, culture, language and religion.
Please don't cut my statements out of context:

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Lithuanias, who try to say that almost all citizens of Vilnius were not Poles, but Polish-speaking Lithuanians
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Old June 30th, 2012, 12:31 AM   #517
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tadek79 View Post
In 1924, 54.7% of the population in Free City of Danzig was Protestant (220,731 persons, mostly Lutherans within the united old-Prussian church), 34.5% was Catholic (140,797 persons), and 2.4% Jewish (9,239 persons);
I already stated here once that this 34% of Catholics is a rough measure of how much Kashubian population joined the city after the reformation (becoming germanized but not "protestantized" as the latter was much more psychologically difficult in previous centuries).
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Old June 30th, 2012, 02:28 PM   #518
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bla bla bla
Please, go trolling to some other place. I'm not sure if you realise that, but your offending opinions make us negatively oriented not only to you, but also other Lithuanians. Don't you like any of your neighbors? Don't you like your history? Perfect. But leave it for yourselve instead shitting all the time everywhere more than it's required.

EOT.
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Old June 30th, 2012, 02:58 PM   #519
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Please, go trolling to some other place. I'm not sure if you realise that, but your offending opinions make us negatively oriented not only to you, but also other Lithuanians. Don't you like any of your neighbors? Don't you like your history? Perfect. But leave it for yourselve instead shitting all the time everywhere more than it's required.

EOT.
Danzig was Polish, Lithuania was Polish. Always. Without exceptions. Amen, Brother.
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Old June 30th, 2012, 06:24 PM   #520
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vilniusguide View Post
Danzig was Polish, Lithuania was Polish. Always. Without exceptions. Amen, Brother.
Nobody wrote that Gdansk or Vilnius have been always Polish. Please read before adding posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tadek79 View Post
I would agree if you would say Polish, Flemish/Dutch and German gem destroyed by Nazis and Soviets and carefully restored by Poles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Throughout its long history Gdańsk faced various periods of rule from different states before 1945...
997-1308: as part of Poland
1308-1454: as part of territory of Teutonic Order
1454-1466: Thirteen Years' War
1466-1793: as part of Poland (15th to mid 17th Century is called Polish Golden Age. It's the time when most of Gdansk Old Town was built. Please see the following link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Golden_Age)
Gdansk during this period

1793-1805: as part of Prussia
1807-1814: as free city
1815-1871: as part of Prussia
1871-1920: Imperial Germany
1920-1939: as a free city
1939-1945: Nazi Germany
1945-now: territory of Poland
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tadek79 View Post
Gdańsk isn't only polish cultural heritage.

Of course, all Poles know that. For example (famous Danzigers):
- Anthonis van Obbergen (Flemish),
- van den Blocke Family (Dutch/Flemish),
- Johannes Hevelius (German-Polish),
- Daniel Gabriel Fahrenheit (Polish-born Dutch),
- Daniel Nikolaus Chodowiecki (Polish-German),
- Arthur Schopenhauer (German),
- Günter Grass (German-Kashubian),
- Lech Wałęsa (Polish).

Last edited by Tadek79; June 30th, 2012 at 07:18 PM.
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