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Old December 8th, 2014, 02:28 AM   #1121
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You guys should all just disregard the troll's comments completely and move on. Every once in a while one of these losers shows up in SSC's historical threads and spouts their enlightened opinions on this and that. No need to bat an eyelash at people like this. Carry on...
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Old December 8th, 2014, 04:45 AM   #1122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rychlik View Post
And it was the policy of Nazi Germany to destroy as much of Polish infrastructure/heritage as possible, the most famous example being Warsaw. A lot of architecture was lost.
But you need some perspective on the situation. I was in Wroclaw over the summer and it is a beautiful city, without exaggeration. Every German who visits Wroclaw or Gdansk should kiss the a s s of anyone working in the tourist/service sector because it was Poles who brought these cities back to life and now people are able to enjoy these places again. Maybe the Germans should have stopped fighting the Russians like fools in Wroclaw during the last days of the war which would have preserved/saved more of the city's grande buildings. What were they fighting for in early 1945? So show some respect because let's not forget who did the destroying. And there is no law that states you have to preserve the culture of your former enemy. Who's preserving Polish culture in lands to the east that were once a part of Poland? On a similar note, do you know how hard it is to get looted art back to Poland from countries like Germany or Russia? It can take years.
Who took lands of East Poland were Russians!
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Old December 8th, 2014, 06:15 AM   #1123
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Who took lands of East Poland were Russians!
STOP TROLLING GOY. You can't even spell.
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Old December 8th, 2014, 12:05 PM   #1124
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On a similar note, do you know how hard it is to get looted art back to Poland from countries like Germany or Russia? It can take years.
There is more looted art from Germany in Poland and Russia than the other way around today.
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Old December 8th, 2014, 10:04 PM   #1125
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There is more looted art from Germany in Poland and Russia than the other way around today.
Can I ask for the proof for this statement? Thank You.
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Old December 8th, 2014, 10:46 PM   #1126
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The vast majority of polish art looted by the Nazis to Germany was returned by the allies shortly after the war. Problem is, that some of these things were again stolen by privates or taken by the russians during and after the war. So provenance research is complicated. But if pieces are in public ownership and identified as looted from Poland, they are returned. Like recently a medieval manuscript found in the Saxon state library.

On the other hand, we have a huge dispute with Poland over art evacuated from the west to now polish lands to secure them from destruction. Most famous example is the "Berlinka collection" in Cracow.

Depots of Hermitage in St. Petersburg or the Pushkin Museum in Moscow are crowded with looted german art. E.g. "Priam's Treasure", "Eberswalde Hoard", the huge armory of the Wartburg, the treasury of the Wettin's with the golden baptismal font of August the Strong and hundreds of thousands of books including whole libraries. Not to mention what soviet soldiers took for themselves.
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Last edited by Saxonia; December 9th, 2014 at 12:22 AM. Reason: R
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Old December 8th, 2014, 11:00 PM   #1127
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Well, the problem of Prussian State Library collecttion is well known, but I do not think that word "looted" is apropriate in this case.
I do not know any important or numerous (if at all) examples of art objects in polish museums that could be treated as "looted" from today's Germany.
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Old December 8th, 2014, 11:50 PM   #1128
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Nice knowing ya, thread.
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Old December 9th, 2014, 01:09 AM   #1129
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Merry Christmas
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Old December 9th, 2014, 02:25 AM   #1130
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Quote:
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There is more looted art from Germany in Poland and Russia than the other way around today.
maybe Russia I agree but not Poland. Poland is still missing 800,000 works of art. Anyway folks let's stop squabbling, this was Goy's objective to divide us, let's not let this troll win....so kiss and make up and forget it. Merry Christmas!!
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Warsaw Post-War Reconstruction to Present

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Old December 9th, 2014, 10:46 AM   #1131
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Saxonia, dispute about so called berlinka collection is a bit different thing... With different background. Then you wrote about Russians stealing art from Germany - well agree, they 'nationalized' and took to Moscow loadz of Polish art too. But please, I asked you for proof for your statement saying that more stolen German art is in Poland than opposite - and you failed sadly you couldn't straighten your statement

If we would like to troll we should mention Swedish treasures and their origin
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Old December 9th, 2014, 02:12 PM   #1132
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Well that's just pure trolling. Poland has done a great job in reconstructing the various cities in the former German territories. For instance the city centres of Gdansk and Wroclaw look better and more historical than an average west German city. All these cities in western Poland have a mixed heritage, Slavic, Prussian, German and Polish. And especially the Polish cities are great examples of this.
On the other hand, the city centres of Legnica or Koszalin (not to mention Nidzica or Pieniężno) look worse and less historical than an average West-German city

In Pieniężno, I'd say it doesn't even look like city at all

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The vast majority of polish art looted by the Nazis to Germany was returned by the allies shortly after the war.
What had been catalogued, was in lots of cases returned indeed. But what had been nicked by corrupted officials of the Nazi regime, was not returned, in most cases it is even not acknowledged as a war victim. Just "missing". Often: "missing together with owners"

On the other hand, how can it be returned now? Water under the bridge.

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On the other hand, we have a huge dispute with Poland over art evacuated from the west to now polish lands to secure them from destruction. Most famous example is the "Berlinka collection" in Cracow.
The dispute is because of outstanding value of Berlinka to German culture, not because of any grounds to return it. According to int'l law all the goods and chattels belonging to the state A (or self-government entities of the state A), which are stored in the territory ceded to other state (B), become the property of the state B. In this particular case: A=Germany, B=Poland.

If Berlinka was nicked by Polish troops from, say, Dresden or Berlin itself, that would be a war loot. But it was moved by German authorities to then German city (Benedictine Abbey, to be precise) of Gruessau, which after 1945 became Polish Krzeszów. Like it or not, it became the property of the Polish state.

Again: water under the bridge
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Last edited by Mruczek; December 9th, 2014 at 02:37 PM.
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Old December 9th, 2014, 05:48 PM   #1133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mruczek View Post
On the other hand, the city centres of Legnica or Koszalin (not to mention Nidzica or Pieniężno) look worse and less historical than an average West-German city

In Pieniężno, I'd say it doesn't even look like city at all
To be honest I don't know those cities, that's probably because they don't have their own treads here

But looking at Legnica at Streetview, it looks like a city with a lot of potential. Some landmarks, a historical street pattern and many commieblocks to demolish and redevelop.
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Old December 9th, 2014, 08:31 PM   #1134
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But please, I asked you for proof for your statement saying that more stolen German art is in Poland than opposite - and you failed sadly you couldn't straighten your statement
I said in "Poland and Russia". But nevertheless the Berlinka Collection is about 300.000 pieces alone. And thats just one prominent case. We have the same problem with large parts of the Upper Lusatian Library in Görlitz which are now in the university library Wroclaw. So when Urbanista1 say "Poland is still missing 800,000 works of art", which are not all in Germany/Austria, we are not far from that in Poland alone.

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The dispute is because of outstanding value of Berlinka to German culture, not because of any grounds to return it.
Of course because of that. It's official policy of the federal government to demand these things back.

Quote:
According to int'l law all the goods and chattels belonging to the state A (or self-government entities of the state A), which are stored in the territory ceded to other state (B), become the property of the state B. In this particular case: A=Germany, B=Poland.
Maybe according to polish law. The Hague Conventions of 1907 points out:
Quote:
Art. 56. The property of municipalities, that of institutions dedicated to religion, charity and education, the arts and sciences, even when State property, shall be treated as private property.
All seizure of, destruction or wilful damage done to institutions of this character, historic monuments, works of art and science, is forbidden, and should be made the subject of legal proceedings.
And your position would also be in contrast to the polish demand that, if they would return the collection under any circumstances, they will keep things that were seized by prussian authorities from now polish Lands after the Divisions in the 19th century.
Quote:
If Berlinka was nicked by Polish troops from, say, Dresden or Berlin itself, that would be a war loot. But it was moved by German authorities to then German city (Benedictine Abbey, to be precise) of Gruessau, which after 1945 became Polish Krzeszów. Like it or not, it became the property of the Polish state.
Thats a difference to the russians, of course. But it does not change that Poland is not in property but rather in possession of Berlinka collection. Unlike to things that were owned by institutions in the former east and left there by the germans.
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Last edited by Saxonia; December 9th, 2014 at 10:17 PM.
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Old December 9th, 2014, 10:24 PM   #1135
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I said in "Poland and Russia".
So now it's pure trolling aight? why you mentioned the Russians in Polish-German relations ha?

To be sure we are on the same page, I agree that Russians were one of the worst war thieves during 2WW (and at all), they even stole track from railways

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saxonia View Post
Maybe according to polish law. The Hague Conventions of 1907 points out:
Quote:
[Art. 56. The property of municipalities, that of institutions dedicated to religion, charity and education, the arts and sciences, even when State property, shall be treated as private property.
All seizure of, destruction or wilful damage done to institutions of this character, historic monuments, works of art and science, is forbidden, and should be made the subject of legal proceedings.
primo: there is no such a thing as Polish international law
secundo: mruczek exactly gave you same legal rule but not copy and paste from convention but explaining in the straight forward way trust me I am a lawyer and from the other hand you believe if that would be an issue there would be no sue from German state to return the goods?
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Old December 9th, 2014, 10:46 PM   #1136
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I think the passage is understandable, even for a lawyer. I see no need to rewrite it by myself.
To make it short, the german position is quite easy and clear. They want back what belongs or belonged to institutions based in post war german borders and were moved out of these borders during or shortly after the war. So called "kriegsbedingt verlagerte Kulturgüter". And except for Poland and Russia, that works quite well.
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Old December 9th, 2014, 11:51 PM   #1137
Don Vito KurDeBalanz
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Don't forget to remind everybody in your next post about ethnic cleansing done by Poles on Germans as you like to do in every possible thread, don't you?
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Old December 10th, 2014, 12:46 AM   #1138
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I don't.
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Old December 10th, 2014, 01:13 AM   #1139
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Digging through this thread I didn't come across any examples of Art Deco / Modernist architect from the pre-WW2 era. Did I miss it? Were any examples built in Danzig/Gdansk?
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Old December 10th, 2014, 05:31 AM   #1140
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Hey guys - make love, not war.
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