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Old December 10th, 2014, 08:11 AM   #1141
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Originally Posted by Saxonia View Post
And except for Poland and Russia, that works quite well.
Unfortumatelly, that does not work also in relations with other countries including f.ex. USA (specific legislation), Ukraine (example of Ossolineuym Library, private collections taking over) and Belarus (interception of the former property by State) and ...Germany (polish relics of the past as an "hostages" of "Berlinka". It took more than 20 years to return one of the object in 2014 - F. Guardi.
In relation to "Berlinka" take into consideration planning destruction of the polish libraries and archives during WWII. It seems to me that problem is how to transmit this collection to Germany and to recompense to some extent polish loss.
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Old December 10th, 2014, 11:21 AM   #1142
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To be honest I don't know those cities, that's probably because they don't have their own treads here
You haven't lost much

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Originally Posted by Batavier View Post
But looking at Legnica at Streetview, it looks like a city with a lot of potential. Some landmarks, a historical street pattern and many commieblocks to demolish and redevelop.
Approx. 30% of historic Old Town was demolished in 1960s in order to create "modern" city centre. Blocks of flats are quite large and the flats are privately owned (and most of them refurbished lately) which makes any reconstruction within the next 50 years not feasible.

Legnica is probably the largest ****up of modern city planning in Poland. Especially since the city was relatively undamaged.

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Originally Posted by UrbanMyth View Post
Digging through this thread I didn't come across any examples of Art Deco / Modernist architect from the pre-WW2 era. Did I miss it? Were any examples built in Danzig/Gdansk?
Plenty. North-German/Dutch brick modernism at its best, looks a little bit like Amsterdam.

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Of course because of that. It's official policy of the federal government to demand these things back.
Are you sure?

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Originally Posted by Saxonia View Post
Maybe according to polish law. The Hague Conventions of 1907 points out:
The 1907 Hague convention regards - among the other things - dealing with property during the war. Which means that during the war between Poland and Germany any claims of ownership of the Berlinka would be null and void, indeed. And all the goods "acquired" by the Nazis should be returned.

However, in case you haven't noticed, the Poland and Germany are not in the state of war for some time so Hague Convention is not applicable here. According to jurisprudence, "administration" over so called "Regained Territories" (including Lower Silesia) granted to Poland as a result of Potsdam Conference (Aug 2, 1945) included competence to deal and process with the property of the German state in this territory, including the property of the former Prussian State Library in Berlin (basically everything that was on this territory). As the result, all the state property of German Reich and Free City of Danzig was taken over by the Polish Treasury by the Decree on Property Abandoned and Left Behind by Germans of March 8, 1946. And the legal title of beneficiaries of this Decree were confirmed by international jurisprudence, including European Tribunal of Human Rights.

Which doesn't change the fact that it would be very good idea to create some sort of European Library in Poland (certainly not in Cracow), which would be based on Berlinka treasure. IIRC in 2007 the professor of Heidelberg University, Peter Hommelhoff proposed it and I think it would be great and very useful.

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I think the passage is understandable, even for a lawyer. I see no need to rewrite it by myself.
To make it short, the german position is quite easy and clear. They want back what belongs or belonged to institutions based in post war german borders and were moved out of these borders during or shortly after the war.
People who moved out Berlinka to Gruessau in, say, 1943, would be very surprised if you told them that they are "moving" anything "out of these borders". The whole problem emerges in the first place because valuables were being moved inside the whole territory of Reich as of 31.12.1937 and nobody expected then that the Niederschlesien would ever become Dolny Śląsk. And the "Ground Zero Time" is Aug 2, 1945.

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So called "kriegsbedingt verlagerte Kulturgüter". And except for Poland and Russia, that works quite well.
That is perhaps because Poland and Russia are the only countries which acquired some pre-war German territories
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Old December 10th, 2014, 05:49 PM   #1143
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Any chance for a reconstructiion on the place of the LOT building?
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Old December 11th, 2014, 08:45 PM   #1144
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Any chance for a reconstructiion on the place of the LOT building?
That one?


No way, this is something so ugly, that it's to some extent beautiful. Like Kulturpalast in Dresden
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Old December 12th, 2014, 01:15 AM   #1145
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Are you sure?
Yes
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Some of the holdings of the Prussian collections were evacuated during the Second World War to German areas that now belong to Poland. The Foundation still claims ownership of these cultural assets.
http://www.preussischer-kulturbesitz...to-poland.html

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Originally Posted by Mruczek View Post
The 1907 Hague convention regards - among the other things - dealing with property during the war. Which means that during the war between Poland and Germany any claims of ownership of the Berlinka would be null and void, indeed. And all the goods "acquired" by the Nazis should be returned.[...]
The Potsdam agreement was expressly not a final peace setteling treaty. As there wasn't even a german representativ to sign anything. From an international law point of view, Germany existed in the Borders of 1937 until 1990. The polish law from March 8 1946 was already repealed in 1985. And please, show me a respected court in europe or elsewhere which will rule that the expulsions and expropriations were collectively unlawful. Would be like to open Pandora's Box.
It's also not the case that Poland completely rejects the german demands as several thousands artifacts were already returned during communist times. And I certainly don't get it, how one can deny to return Berlinka and other collections to its owner in nowadays Germany and at the same time demand things "back" that belonged to german institutions in nowadays Poland, even evacuated city archives.
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Old December 12th, 2014, 11:18 AM   #1146
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First of all, the last posts are not related to the topic, because Gdańsk/Danzig wasn't part of Germany before WW2.

Secondly, I cannot imagine Berlinka being returned by Polish authorities without restitiution of artworks from Germany, where thousands of valuable art pieces looted during the Partitions of Poland are kept (e.g. paintings from King John III Sobieski, Vasa dynasty and King Stanisław August Poniatowski collections in Gemäldegalerie).

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Thirdly, Saxonia - what is the value of millions of Polish civilians murdered by the Germans during WW2?
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Old December 12th, 2014, 12:20 PM   #1147
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Old December 12th, 2014, 12:34 PM   #1148
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The Potsdam agreement was expressly not a final peace setteling treaty. As there wasn't even a german representativ to sign anything.
The role of German represantives ended when Jodl signed act of unconditional surrender in Reims. Perhaps he didn't read it carefully and didn't understand fully its historical consequences. But, as Nurnberg process showed, Jodl apparently had a very bad habit to sign documents, which (as he claimed in Nurnberg) he had never read. Well, it usually ends very sadly as poor Jodl experienced on his own... neck

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From an international law point of view, Germany existed in the Borders of 1937 until 1990.
It is not relevant. Poland was entitled to keep administration of the "Oder-Neisse ostgebiete" since Aug 2, 1945 with all decisions and acts being effective with immediate effect. All of the decisions made since on the ground were post factum accepted by Germany in consequent treaties of 1950, 1970 and 1990.

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The polish law from March 8 1946 was already repealed in 1985.
The decree was indeed repealed, but its legal consequences (including transfer of property) never were. Neither by Polish authorities or courts, nor by international.

What is interesting, the fact that the legal consequences of Decree of March 8, 1946 are in force, is explicitly mentioned in Real Estate Management Act, Aug 21, 1997, art. 216a (the practical consequence is that the "property left behind" according to Decree of March 8, 1946, is exempted from the reprivatisation).

http://isap.sejm.gov.pl/DetailsServl...WDU19971150741

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It's also not the case that Poland completely rejects the german demands as several thousands artifacts were already returned during communist times.
They were given as a gift to underline commonly-known and deeply rooted Polish-German mutual friendship, trust and cooperation

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Originally Posted by Saxonia View Post
And I certainly don't get it, how one can deny to return Berlinka and other collections to its owner in nowadays Germany and at the same time demand things "back" that belonged to german institutions in nowadays Poland (...)
Because Poland have legal grounds to keep Berlinka (which is not a war loot), while Germany doesn't have legal grounds to keep war loot from 1939-45.

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(...) even evacuated city archives.
Because of rule of territorial pertinence, which was btw. invented by the great German archivist, Barthold Georg Niebuhr.

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Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
First of all, the last posts are not related to the topic, because Gdańsk/Danzig wasn't part of Germany before WW2.
But the Decree of March 8, 1946 includes the territory of Free City of Gdańsk.

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Thirdly, Saxonia - what is the value of millions of Polish civilians murdered by the Germans during WW2?
What does it have to do with anything? War crimes and crimes against humanity committed by Germans in the WWII were dealt with by criminal courts, not civil ones and are very remote from the topic of pieces of art.
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Old December 12th, 2014, 01:50 PM   #1149
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What does it have to do with anything?
I can ask you the same thing, what your and Saxonia's posts have to do with the topic?
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Old December 12th, 2014, 04:41 PM   #1150
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Thirdly, Saxonia - what is the value of millions of Polish civilians murdered by the Germans during WW2?
You tell me. It's a creepy question.

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Originally Posted by Mruczek View Post
The role of German represantives ended when Jodl signed act of unconditional surrender in Reims. Perhaps he didn't read it carefully and didn't understand fully its historical consequences. But, as Nurnberg process showed, Jodl apparently had a very bad habit to sign documents, which (as he claimed in Nurnberg) he had never read. Well, it usually ends very sadly as poor Jodl experienced on his own... neck
It was a capitulation of the Wehrmacht, not the german state which fell incapable of acting.


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It is not relevant. Poland was entitled to keep administration of the "Oder-Neisse ostgebiete" since Aug 2, 1945 with all decisions and acts being effective with immediate effect. All of the decisions made since on the ground were post factum accepted by Germany in consequent treaties of 1950, 1970 and 1990.
And the treaties signed between Poland and Germany in 1990 particulary say that both sides take further steps to solve the Problem of on account of the war translocated cultural assets.

Quote:
Because Poland have legal grounds to keep Berlinka (which is not a war loot), while Germany doesn't have legal grounds to keep war loot from 1939-45.
It's not looting if you transport assets from some parts of your own country into other parts. You can not loot yourself.

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Because of rule of territorial pertinence, which was btw. invented by the great German archivist, Barthold Georg Niebuhr.
Or territorial provenance. It's not Niebuhr's fault that he could not forecast the events of the 20th century. Those archives developed in great majorities under a prussian/german administration. Which moved west as did the people they belong to. Thats a huge different to let's say Alsace-Lorraine where never accured such a collective total expulsion. According to territorial pertinence, Germany could also demand all documents of the allied occupation authorities based in Germany which is of course complete nonsense.
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Old December 12th, 2014, 07:25 PM   #1151
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It was a capitulation of the Wehrmacht, not the german state which fell incapable of acting.
It was unconditional surrender of Germany. The only reason it was signed by the representatives of the German Supreme HQ it was to prevent Dolchstosslegende and all the other absurds that could emerge afterwards.

Seems that preventing from those legends created itself some other legends too

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And the treaties signed between Poland and Germany in 1990 particulary say that both sides take further steps to solve the Problem of on account of the war translocated cultural assets.
Precisely. That's why war loot should be given back, if proven that it's war loot.

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Originally Posted by Saxonia View Post
It's not looting if you transport assets from some parts of your own country into other parts. You can not loot yourself.
Finally you're starting to understand why Berlinka is not a war loot. Precisely. Because it was German authorities, who moved it from place A to place B during the time of war. Legally, without force, threat or wrong judgement. After the war, it happened so that the place B was ceded to other state. With everything on it. Pity.

Of course, when I mean "war loot" I mean something different: the unprecedented action of mass and organised theft committed by both German administration and Nazi officials from occupied territories (often after murdering its rightful owners, but that's a detail), with breach of the Hague Convention. That property might be the subject of restoration. Although, between you and me, the cases of return of property are so rare that the problem merely exists.

As I said earlier: water under the bridge.

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Or territorial provenance. It's not Niebuhr's fault that he could not forecast the events of the 20th century. Those archives developed in great majorities under a prussian/german administration.
So what?

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Thats a huge different to let's say Alsace-Lorraine where never accured such a collective total expulsion.
Plots of lands were not expelled, that's the whole Niebuhr's point and Niebuhr's genious. Danzig will remain on the spot, even if it's called Gdańsk.or whatever. The real estate in Gdansk cannot be moved anywhere. That's why in most languages of the world, the real estate sounds like "immobilities".

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Germany could also demand all documents of the allied occupation authorities based in Germany which is of course complete nonsense.
Internal documents of Allied troops (and of any other troops during time of war and occupation) are not the subject of the principle of territorial provenance. How could they be? Do you think Niebuhr was an idiot?

On the other hand, the city archives of cities in German territory from 1945 to 1949 (i.e. under occupation) stay in those cities. Nobody moved them. And if someone - God forbid! - did, Germany (or particular German land, Kreis or Gemeinde) has all claims to have it back.

Taking into account what my intuition says, that 90% of unlawful theft of archives were done by Rooskies - well, Germany, good luck with that claims But at least you can feel the law is on your side. Very refreshing, ain't it?

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I can ask you the same thing, what your and Saxonia's posts have to do with the topic?
Nothing. Frankly speaking I derailed myself because of OT. Sorry.

But anyway, there is nothing particularly interesting going on reconstructions in Gdańsk today and at the meantime our trolling keeps the thread on top of the list
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Old December 12th, 2014, 08:24 PM   #1152
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Maybe this cute photo of a little child with the family dog will help transition into a more appropriate discussion...



Here are a couple shots of Mariacka Street, just after the war and post-reconstruction but without stucco:





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Old December 12th, 2014, 10:25 PM   #1153
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It was unconditional surrender of Germany. The only reason it was signed by the representatives of the German Supreme HQ it was to prevent Dolchstosslegende and all the other absurds that could emerge afterwards.

Seems that preventing from those legends created itself some other legends too
No. It was a surrender of the armed forces with no immediate impact on the international status of the German state or its borders. The literature clearly distinguishs here. The Wehrmacht was dissolved, the Reich of 1871 exists until today (under a new name and borders of cause). Neither was the potsdam agreement which just coordinated how this area should be managed until a peace settelment.


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Finally you're starting to understand why Berlinka is not a war loot. Precisely. Because it was German authorities, who moved it from place A to place B during the time of war. Legally, without force, threat or wrong judgement. After the war, it happened so that the place B was ceded to other state. With everything on it. Pity.
The simple act of stealing is actually kinda irrelevant. The Berlinka is kept although it was never owned by an institution on now polish soil. All german institutions based in the former east instead dissolved after war and their property left behind became polish at least in 1990, indeed. But the Staatsbibliothek still exists and never gave up it's property. The term "last german war prisoners" used by an official some years ago is therefore quite appropriate in my opinion.


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Plots of lands were not expelled, that's the whole Niebuhr's point and Niebuhr's genious. Danzig will remain on the spot, even if it's called Gdańsk.or whatever. The real estate in Gdansk cannot be moved anywhere. That's why in most languages of the world, the real estate sounds like "immobilities".
I don't see what this has do with "genious". It's just one concept developed long time ago with no knowledge of the possibility of cleaning a whole landscape from it's inhabitants within a few months and resettle it with people almost completely unrelated to it. Documents are written by people not by soil or houses. What on earth would these now polish inhabitants do with let's say church books or treaties among former inhabitants of which non of them is related to in anyway. On the other hand here in germany such documents are extremely important for private or proffessional genealogical research.

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Internal documents of Allied troops (and of any other troops during time of war and occupation) are not the subject of the principle of territorial provenance. How could they be? Do you think Niebuhr was an idiot?
Right no object of territorial provenance, but of territorial persitence as you suggest. According to that they should stay at the place of their creation, let's say Frankfurt (IG-Farben Buidling).


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Taking into account what my intuition says, that 90% of unlawful theft of archives were done by Rooskies - well, Germany, good luck with that claims But at least you can feel the law is on your side. Very refreshing, ain't it?
Most of the rather not very valuable city archives were returned already in the 50s and 60s by the soviets. Including assets from the West (e.g. from Bremen) stored in the later GDR and then looted by soviets.
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Old December 13th, 2014, 05:36 PM   #1154
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No. It was a surrender of the armed forces with no immediate impact on the international status of the German state or its borders. The literature clearly distinguishs here.
It gave the Allies right to manage the occupied territory though and the decisions made in Potsdam were post factum acknowledged by the Germany. Pity that some just don't get it.

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The Wehrmacht was dissolved, the Reich of 1871 exists until today (under a new name and borders of cause). Neither was the potsdam agreement which just coordinated how this area should be managed until a peace settelment.
And since there was no peace settlement, it is generally acknowledged that the Polish-German matters were fixed in treaties of 1950, 1970 and 1990. End of story.

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The Berlinka is kept although it was never owned by an institution on now polish soil.
Btw it still isn't. It's the property of the Polish Treasury. Jagiellonian Library has it merely in deposit.

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All german institutions based in the former east instead dissolved after war and their property left behind became polish at least in 1990, indeed. But the Staatsbibliothek still exists and never gave up it's property.
Staatsbibliothek is not a subject of international law. All the property left in the territory under Polish administration as of Aug 2, 1945 was transferred to the Polish state and that was accepted in consequent Treaties.

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I don't see what this has do with "genious". It's just one concept developed long time ago with no knowledge of the possibility of cleaning a whole landscape from it's inhabitants within a few months and resettle it with people almost completely unrelated to it. Documents are written by people not by soil or houses. What on earth would these now polish inhabitants do with let's say church books or treaties among former inhabitants of which non of them is related to in anyway.
What Polish residents of the so called Regained Territories might want from mortgage registers in their city or books of real estate with technical data of their buildings? Really, no idea

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Right no object of territorial provenance, but of territorial persitence as you suggest. According to that they should stay at the place of their creation, let's say Frankfurt (IG-Farben Buidling).
Do you really want to give up half of the military documents of Bundesarchiv? Because during the war they were being "created" in the very wide space from Stalingrad to Trondheim and Bordeaux

I think we should move out from this topic, any idea, where we can go? I have strange feeling that mods are not happy with our outrageous offtop
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Old December 13th, 2014, 09:28 PM   #1155
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It gave the Allies right to manage the occupied territory though and the decisions made in Potsdam were post factum acknowledged by the Germany. Pity that some just don't get it.

And since there was no peace settlement, it is generally acknowledged that the Polish-German matters were fixed in treaties of 1950, 1970 and 1990. End of story.

Staatsbibliothek is not a subject of international law. All the property left in the territory under Polish administration as of Aug 2, 1945 was transferred to the Polish state and that was accepted in consequent Treaties.
The treaties of 1990 and the current dissence obviously show that there is space for discussions about objects like the Berlinka collections. If everything would be so clear, the federal administration had not brought up this topic again and again since 1990. With signs of cooperation from the polish side until 2007.


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What Polish residents of the so called Regained Territories might want from mortgage registers in their city or books of real estate with technical data of their buildings? Really, no idea
In the case of documents from technical infrastructure documents are in fact often handed out on request.

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Do you really want to give up half of the military documents of Bundesarchiv? Because during the war they were being "created" in the very wide space from Stalingrad to Trondheim and Bordeaux
You missunderstood me. I am in favor of territorial provenance. Which means that this documents shoud be kept in the context of the institutions (or its legal successors) who created them, regardeless of the actual place where this happened. Which is kinda logic for an archive when you think about. Pertinence principle is something for libraries rather than archives.

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I think we should move out from this topic, any idea, where we can go? I have strange feeling that mods are not happy with our outrageous offtop
We have a "German-Polish bitching thread" in the Wunderbar.
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Old December 13th, 2014, 09:43 PM   #1156
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No way, this is something so ugly, that it's to some extent beautiful. Like Kulturpalast in Dresden
I bet it looked way better when it was new.
People have vandalized far too many early modernist buildings to the point that their original looks are ruined.
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Old December 14th, 2014, 06:27 PM   #1157
Mruczek
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We have a "German-Polish bitching thread" in the Wunderbar.
Excellent idea

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I bet it looked way better when it was new.
People have vandalized far too many early modernist buildings to the point that their original looks are ruined.
Nothing ages worse than modernism.

Well, perhaps, nothing apart from mediocre modernism made by drunk builders using 3rd class materials in poverty-stricken Communist country
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Old March 18th, 2015, 02:53 PM   #1158
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Romanesque Cellar - Gdansk Archeological Museum










More photos: link
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Old April 2nd, 2015, 02:34 PM   #1159
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This is the Gdansk waterfront in 1687. Every single house shown in your photograph had stood almost untouched from this time. Gdansk grew in wealth during the Thirty Years war and these bland Baroque facades were supposed to be the showy results. I would love to see any surviving images of the Hanseatic or Renaissance beauties they replaced.



http://www.remus.shidler.hawaii.edu
I did not know that in the 17th century were steamers...
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Old April 2nd, 2015, 02:38 PM   #1160
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I did not know that in the 17th century were steamers...
Probably because the picture says 1937 below the ribbon.
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